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Author Topic: Zeiss FE with *any* 39-Mpxl digital back?  (Read 17318 times)
bradleygibson
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« on: March 07, 2008, 11:25:04 PM »
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For the nature/wildlife work I do, I'd love to get my hands on some of the large-aperture Zeiss FE glass.  Is anyone aware of:

1) any way to use FE lenses with a high resolution digital back (any camera platform)?
2) doing so without stop-down metering (ie. not Contax 645 with MAM-1 adapter)
3) (for the win) and without sync cables?

Any tips, leads, crazy ideas??

Thanks,
Brad
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eronald
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 08:33:06 AM »
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Why not just use an old Hasselblad with an MF back ?

Edmund

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For the nature/wildlife work I do, I'd love to get my hands on some of the large-aperture Zeiss FE glass.  Is anyone aware of:

1) any way to use FE lenses with a high resolution digital back (any camera platform)?
2) doing so without stop-down metering (ie. not Contax 645 with MAM-1 adapter)
3) (for the win) and without sync cables?

Any tips, leads, crazy ideas??

Thanks,
Brad
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 09:14:48 AM »
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Why not just use an old Hasselblad with an MF back ?

Edmund
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If I did that, I'd be limited to 16 megapixels (CFV), or forced to use a (fragile) sync cable and prevented from using the focal plane shutter and all FE lenses (Hasselblad CF-39 and all Phase backs).

I'm hoping I've missed something, but it looks like I haven't...

-Brad
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 09:26:30 AM by bradleygibson » Logged

Mike W
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2008, 09:27:05 AM »
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nope, hasselblad cf-backs (the 22, 31 and 39-variety) can be used on a V series as well.
You're not limited to the 16mpx. Or you could use a Phase One or Sinarback.
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Christopher Arnoldi
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 09:28:14 AM »
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I want to buy some Hasselblad FE lenses for my Sinar m, because I don't need a shutter in the lens with the Sinar m. Therefore I asked Zeiss for a comparison between the Hasselblad Distagon T* 4/50 CFI and the Hasselblad Distagon T* 2,8/50 FE.

Zeiss tested them for me in projection mode and told me that there are no significiant differences in  image quality. The Hasselblad Distagon T* 2,8/50 FE additional has floating elements.

When I have one Hasselblad Distagon T* 2,8/50 FE, I will see ...
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James R Russell
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2008, 11:10:26 AM »
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I want to buy some Hasselblad FE lenses for my Sinar m, because I don't need a shutter in the lens with the Sinar m. Therefore I asked Zeiss for a comparison between the Hasselblad Distagon T* 4/50 CFI and the Hasselblad Distagon T* 2,8/50 FE.

Zeiss tested them for me in projection mode and told me that there are no significiant differences in  image quality. The Hasselblad Distagon T* 2,8/50 FE additional has floating elements.

When I have one Hasselblad Distagon T* 2,8/50 FE, I will see ...
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For a period I was caught up in the "alternative" lens craze for my Contax, buying Russian Tilt Shifts, Pentax and Hasselblad FE lenses, with the various adapters, that do require stop down mode.

Quite honestly the 110FE f/2  lens has essentially the same look in contrast and tone as the Contax/Zeiss lens other than the fast fall off that f2 offers, which negates the need to stop down or at least stop down significantly where it becomes an issue.  

At F2 it is pretty especially on tight faces and available light, but still something I rarely use.

At least with the Contax you aren't messing with cables from the lens to the back, though unless you are shooting wide open all the Zeiss lenses to my eyes have a similar look.

The Pentax lenses have a softer curve,  which are nice for tight beauty work, but this can be fairly easily emulated within the processing of C-1, V4, lightroom, CS, etc, just by moving the sliders, so even though our lens case has grown to nearly 50 lbs. I very, very rarely use anything but the standard Contax/Zeiss lenses.

In fact for tonality, color, and overall look, (except for focus falloff) I find the various processors offer more optiions than lenses (except for that Russian Tilt Shift).

Going from C1 3.78 to V4, to RD to Lightroom can make as much if not more difference than a change of lens contrast.

Now if your buying new then I would hold off until Phase/Mamiya announces how/if/when the new Mamiya will work with the different lenses.  The Phase announcement is vague in this regard, but if the Mamiya will actually take Hasselblad lenses without having to stop down that will take a lot of older lenses and put them back in use.

Once again, be careful of lens obsession because you can wind up with a lens case heavier than your lighting package.



JR
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amsp
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 11:59:04 AM »
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Now if your buying new then I would hold off until Phase/Mamiya announces how/if/when the new Mamiya will work with the different lenses.  The Phase announcement is vague in this regard, but if the Mamiya will actually take Hasselblad lenses without having to stop down that will take a lot of older lenses and put them back in use.
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James, why do you think Hasselblad lenses would be supported on the new Mamiya without stop down? There has been no announcement or rumor to suggest anything like that. In fact, the recent release of the Mamiya HB-mount adapter proves the contrary. Maybe you've confused it with the announcement of leaf shutter lenses to be manufactured by a yet undisclosed "european manufacturer".
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 12:38:05 PM »
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James, why do you think Hasselblad lenses would be supported on the new Mamiya without stop down? There has been no announcement or rumor to suggest anything like that. In fact, the recent release of the Mamiya HB-mount adapter proves the contrary. Maybe you've confused it with the announcement of leaf shutter lenses to be manufactured by a yet undisclosed "european manufacturer".
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 It is not possible to use FE lenses with anything other than the F-serries specific CVF back which is 16MP. Any attempt to use some other setup with adaptors or what-not is a distant possibility. Probably the chap using the sinar M has the best chance of getting a workable solution.

With the F-serries specific back, Hasselblad/imacon were using the dark slide connector to "wake-up"/fire the back - which means you need to send your F-serries in to Hasselblad to have a modification made. In principle this adpation could be incorporated into any manufactors back at the adaptor plate (serial interface) stage. Why is has NOT is total mystery and probaly the biggest missed market in digital back history (other than sensor based image stabilisation). Anyway I digress. Maybe there is a good reaosn why nobody else is "allowed" to use this hardwiring... maybe Hasselblad has patented this or something - really not like hasselblad to promote a closed system   ?!!

 Ed
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paul_jones
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2008, 12:53:54 PM »
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James, why do you think Hasselblad lenses would be supported on the new Mamiya without stop down? There has been no announcement or rumor to suggest anything like that. In fact, the recent release of the Mamiya HB-mount adapter proves the contrary. Maybe you've confused it with the announcement of leaf shutter lenses to be manufactured by a yet undisclosed "european manufacturer".
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yair kind of suggested that, but im not sure about the mechanical link. why did mamiya make a song and dance about being able to use v series lenses? a mamiya/V adaptor has existed for a while (without the lens shutter working). does anyone know anymore about this? it would be very cool to use V shutters.

paul
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amsp
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2008, 01:06:06 PM »
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yair kind of suggested that, but im not sure about the mechanical link. why did mamiya make a song and dance about being able to use v series lenses? a mamiya/V adaptor has existed for a while (without the lens shutter working). does anyone know anymore about this? it would be very cool to use V shutters.

paul
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Agreed, there have been third party adapters identical in function to the Mamiya one for quite some time, and cheaper to boot.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2008, 01:10:24 PM »
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James, why do you think Hasselblad lenses would be supported on the new Mamiya without stop down? There has been no announcement or rumor to suggest anything like that. In fact, the recent release of the Mamiya HB-mount adapter proves the contrary. Maybe you've confused it with the announcement of leaf shutter lenses to be manufactured by a yet undisclosed "european manufacturer".
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I don't know if that's true or not, I thought I read it somewhere on a earlier release.

I've even talked to the Phase people directly, but really didn't ask much about the new camera because until something is released, in the field, proven etc. etc., I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it because there is only so many useful hours in a day.

Now, given that unless something revolutionary came about I doubt if I would switch from my Contax's just  because I have 4 of them a truck load of lenses, they work as intended and for me the key to everything in digital is it has to work as intended or promised.

When the camera comes out I may test it, but once again, more out of curiousity than anything else.

Maybe it's just wishfull thinking that there would be some way to mount all these legacy lenses on a camera body that would work with full functionality and if some company actually does that they would probably make a lot of people happy.

I find talking about these cameras interesting and obviously the manufacturers have more invested in what does well in the marketplace than I do, since I don't own stock in any of them, but I think the thought of open platforms is more intriguing to me than a closed one and not because anything that anyone offers is bad or not good, it just things change in the digital world and I'd hate to be holding $35,000 worth of cameras and be limited to the film (digital back) I could put on it.

JR
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yaya
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2008, 04:42:48 AM »
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For the nature/wildlife work I do, I'd love to get my hands on some of the large-aperture Zeiss FE glass.  Is anyone aware of:

1) any way to use FE lenses with a high resolution digital back (any camera platform)?
2) doing so without stop-down metering (ie. not Contax 645 with MAM-1 adapter)
3) (for the win) and without sync cables?

Any tips, leads, crazy ideas??

Thanks,
Brad
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Have a look at [a href=\"http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/news_eng/news.htm]Silvestri's Hasselblad adapter[/url]

This will allow you to physically mount an FE lens on a view camera and to set the working aperture (for focus you can just open it up).
Now you still have to trigger the back somehow, maybe with a copal shutter set to the working shutter speed and a sync cable...

You were looking for "crazy" ideas afterall....

Yair
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Dustbak
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2008, 04:54:36 AM »
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Hahaha...


Now how is that for a crazy idea?

Another thing you could look at is the Horseman Digiflex II (or I but I prefer the II). You can fit that one with any V mount back. Together with a 39MP back it will result in borderless 22MP images & when you like black borders about 30MP (great together with Onone frames or AutoFX edges).

You can use F mount Nikkor lenses on the DigiFlex. I use Zeiss ZF lenses and some very fast Nikkor lenses (50/1.2, 85/1.4, 35/1.4,etc..).

How about using the P 500/4 with a 39MP back and no AA filter?

Unfortunately the newer Nikon lenses are all G

The new PC lenses have electronic stop-down which prevent usage on the Digiflex I am afraid.

The DigiFlex II can even be used with multishot backs!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 04:57:50 AM by Dustbak » Logged
shutay
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 11:29:31 AM »
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Hahaha...
Now how is that for a crazy idea?

Another thing you could look at is the Horseman Digiflex II (or I but I prefer the II). You can fit that one with any V mount back. Together with a 39MP back it will result in borderless 22MP images & when you like black borders about 30MP (great together with Onone frames or AutoFX edges).

You can use F mount Nikkor lenses on the DigiFlex. I use Zeiss ZF lenses and some very fast Nikkor lenses (50/1.2, 85/1.4, 35/1.4,etc..).

How about using the P 500/4 with a 39MP back and no AA filter?

Unfortunately the newer Nikon lenses are all G

The new PC lenses have electronic stop-down which prevent usage on the Digiflex I am afraid.

The DigiFlex II can even be used with multishot backs!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Since we're going crazy here...

Still going roughly along the same line of thought as Dustbak... As an alternative, instead of the [a href=\"http://www.horsemanusa.com/dgf2.html]Digiflex II[/url], you could go the Kapture Group Truewide way. It can capture a larger area of CCD sensor, rather than just a masked off 36mm x 24mm area, which seems like a real waste. Although I don't have one, I have been playing around with a Truewide, and testing my Nikkor lenses, as well as the Zeiss ZF lenses they have on display on the shop. Some lenses really have a very large capture area, especially the ZF ones. If it bothers you that  that there may still be some vignetting on a 48mm x 36mm sensor with some lenses, you could try going the way of the 44mm x 33mm sensors instead - 31megapixel Phase One P30+, 28megapixel Leaf Aptus 65s. You might be put off by the low 1/125s maximum shutter speed though. Bring lots of ND filters with you.  Add to that the fact that the Truewide is available in Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645 AFD and Contax 645 mounts.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2008, 01:58:29 PM »
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Shutay,

Read several posts above  I used to own a truewide. I used that one with an A17. The truewide covers the complete 43x33 (A17 is 43x32 if I am not mistaken) sensor with most lenses. As a rule of thumb basically anything from 35mm up.

I have also used a Cambo miniwide which does the same but doesn't have a sliding back.

The Digiflex by the way covers a bit more than 24x36, I guess it has several mm's more on the edges but indeed where the truewide & the miniwide are limited by the image circle of the lenses (mostly) the Digiflex is limited by the shutter. You do get something like 27x39 which makes a 39MP back something of a 22MP (without borders). If you leave the borders on I find it very pleasing in many cases and because stuff like autofx edges takes of a part of the border you immediately have some 'meat' for it.

The Digiflex has a 1/2000th fastest shutter speed and is actually quite nice to use as a dSLR. (1/125 sync). I could be doing wild-life with it.

The ZF lenses are awesome on a MFDB.

I think the only thing I did not use yet is the Sinar M with Nikon F lens module. If I can get one for a decent price I surely will use it for a while  
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 02:05:54 PM by Dustbak » Logged
bradleygibson
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2008, 05:48:27 PM »
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Wow, guys,

I love the creative suggestions, thank you!

Along the lines being suggested, I did have a close look at an Alpa, but as Yair pointed out with his suggestion, triggering the back can be problematic when attempting to shoot handheld (in that case I was looking at Rollei glass, which gives both Schneider and Zeiss as options).

I'll look into some of the suggestions you've provided, and will let you know if I come up with a good solution.

Thanks again,
Brad
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Pham Minh Son
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2008, 07:07:46 PM »
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Brad,
I would like to add one small note. Tele-photo lens are very different than just general lens alone. Your question is specific to tele-photo lens so I hope to contribute to the discussion here. Michael Reichmann once has a similar crazy idea like yours and he bought the Pentax 67 tele-photo 600 mm lens. You can read this crazy idea here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/600mm.shtml
Basically the point that I want to take out here is that the long lens is very sensitive to chromatic aberration. Therefore, I recommend the Hasselblad 350 mm F5.6 Superachromat for you. If funding is a no issue get the Power Pack 2.8/300 FE. The Mamiya Apo 2.8/300 and 4.5/500 are also alternative options. Back to the Hasselblad lens, the 350 mm F5.6 can be used on your current Hasselblad H body via an adapter. The remaining FE lens will not work since there is no shutter on the lens. Thus, your best option is the 5.6/350 Superachromat lens.

Best Regards,
-Son
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shutay
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2008, 07:46:48 PM »
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Dustbak,

Shucks, choices, choices!!! What made you give up the Truewide? Hmmm, it's interesting to read your comments, broadens my understanding.

Bradley, by the way, one BIG difference too between the Digiflex and the Truewide - the Digiflex can be operated much like an SLR. I've been told that using the viewfinder is like looking down a tunnel (I can't confirm, how about Dustbak?), but if you need handholdability, between these 2 the Digiflex must be on your list. There's no way to handhold the Truewide. Plus on the Truewide, you will still have that pesky sync cable running from front to back unless you get their equally pesky special 2-headed release cable.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 02:05:07 AM »
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Forget about handholding the truewide. It is way too akward, it needs to be on a tripod. The miniwide could be handheld but still I would not recommend it.

I am not sure why I did give up on the truewide, at one stage I simply had too many cameras and wanted to get rid of something. I also wanted to use Rodenstock HR or Schneider digitar with something like the Silvestri flexicam. I am still investigating that but by now I also plan on doing multishot with that, putting extra requirements on the shutter, etc....

The Digiflex is difficult in the beginning to get used to the viewfinder. Indeed it is like looking into a tunnel. However once used to that it is very easy to focus with it, despite the 'small tunneled viewfinder' view. It kind of snaps into focus. I can do moving things fairly easy with it. It really is a rudimentary dslr, no metering, no af, etc.. They are rarely for sale, there is currently one offered on Ebay. Even if I already have 2, I am still temted to get this one . I am also seeking the WLF for the Digiflex. If anyone has one please contact me?

In some areas I find it better than my H2/CF39. It is excellent in low light situations, due to its weight and its lack of mirror slap combined with the possibility of fast glass (eg. 85/1.4, 105/2.0, 135/2.0 and even, I still want one, 200/2.0). It can go places where you cannot take the H2. It has about a 3 to 4 stops advantage over the H2 in general.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 04:21:13 AM by Dustbak » Logged
bradleygibson
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2008, 10:55:31 AM »
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Brad,
I would like to add one small note. Tele-photo lens are very different than just general lens alone. Your question is specific to tele-photo lens so I hope to contribute to the discussion here. Michael Reichmann once has a similar crazy idea like yours and he bought the Pentax 67 tele-photo 600 mm lens. You can read this crazy idea here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/600mm.shtml
Basically the point that I want to take out here is that the long lens is very sensitive to chromatic aberration. Therefore, I recommend the Hasselblad 350 mm F5.6 Superachromat for you. If funding is a no issue get the Power Pack 2.8/300 FE. The Mamiya Apo 2.8/300 and 4.5/500 are also alternative options. Back to the Hasselblad lens, the 350 mm F5.6 can be used on your current Hasselblad H body via an adapter. The remaining FE lens will not work since there is no shutter on the lens. Thus, your best option is the 5.6/350 Superachromat lens.

Best Regards,
-Son
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Hi, Pham,

Thank you for the suggestion.  I've come to precisely this conclusion for Hasselblad lenses as well.  One of the reasons why I would like to be able to use FE lenses with a high-resolution back is to be able to take advantage of the 300/2.8 TPP.  That would be the *ideal* lens for what I do, (price notwithstanding).

One other lens that I'd add to your short list above is the Contax 350/4 Tele-Apotesar. True, the image quality is a step down in quality but the faster aperture vs. the 5.6 Superachromat is appealing, as is its close focusing capability.

But, I'm on a Hasselblad...  I am in the market for a CFe 350 Tele-Superachromat--Son, I'd appreciate it if you would let me know if you have or know where one is available at a reasonable price--thank you!

Dustback and shutay,

Interesting idea with the Digiflex--my big concern would be limiting myself to 24x36--that's just a hair under half my 49x37 sensor being used yielding ~19-19.5 megapixels...   If that would work for me, I'd probably consider the 16Mpxl CFV on a Hasselblad 203FE or 205FCC to be a better option.  My understanding is that it's the only solution that lets me use FE glass (but retains compatibility with CF glass as a bonus.)

As it stands, I'm probably out of luck with the extra speed of the FE glass, at least for the time being.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions!

Take care,
Brad
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:58:42 AM by bradleygibson » Logged

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