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Author Topic: Adobe pricing in US vs. Europe  (Read 18482 times)
Ray
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2008, 09:04:54 PM »
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The only solution I see to these price differentials is for Adobe to subsidise the less profitable sections of their market by increasing the price of their products in the US. When US customers then complain about the price increase, it could be explained by Adobe that in order to keep global prices for their products the same, whether in Iceland, Norway or Australia, it's necessary for them to offset the less profitable sections of their market with the more profitable sections.

I'm sure US customers would understand this approach and accept the price rises willingly   .

The fact is, the US is by far the largest single market in the world for expensive and sophisticated products. Since I was a little boy, this has always been the case, and as a consequence, most things in the US are cheaper than elsewhere due to the economies of scale.
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jjj
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2008, 09:18:06 PM »
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For all the mutterings about elastic this and taxation that, there is a much simpler reason. Adobe charge what they do, because they can. They own the market when it comes to photography+design, there are competitors, but only Macromedia was any threat and they bought them.

I pay up to 90% more for Adobe products to purchase exactly the same product, from the very same server as an American, simply because I happen live in the UK.

As for the bollocks Adobe come out with about translation costs, that is completely is undermined as you can buy non-English versions in the US for the same price as the English version. It's price gouging and they also charge different prices across Europe, which is very iffy ground. I don't understand why the EU haven't taken them to court yet.

The fact that I can afford to fly to the States have a nice holiday and buy some software, declare purchase on my return, pay local taxes on it and still save money is absurd.

The very weak dollar and it's not exactly a short term thing, means Adobe make enormous amount of money from foreign sales, esp to the UK. There's a lot of ill will towards Adobe in the UK[and Europe] as a result. But it's not like you can simply change software brands, like you do you car makes. Few people would ever change brand of car, if you had to redo your driving lessons and take test again before changing car manufacturer. But with software, relearning another package can cost way more time/money than  people want/can afford to pay, so you stick with what you know.
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jjj
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 09:22:22 PM »
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The fact is, the US is by far the largest single market in the world for expensive and sophisticated products. Since I was a little boy, this has always been the case, and as a consequence, most things in the US are cheaper than elsewhere due to the economies of scale.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180723\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Which is fine when it comes to manufacturing and distributing say a physical product like a Mountain Bike, but when you are downloading data from the same server as an American, we should all pay the same price. It's not as if Adobe are paying for the transport of bytes aross the Atlantic. It's a completely new business model using the old pricing structure simply to rip off customers.
Set the price in dollars and let the punter pay the equivalemnt in his/her own currency. Other software I've abroad purchased works that way.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 09:23:57 PM by jjj » Logged

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Misirlou
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2008, 11:07:12 PM »
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I don't understand why the EU haven't taken them to court yet.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And you wonder why they charge more in Europe? Are you really thinking this through? Microsoft just got slammed with a gigantic fine by the EU. Do you really think any manager is going to expose his company to that kind of risk without getting something in return, like maybe higher profits?

What's to keep the EU from tying up Adobe in a protracted legal suit over incorporating raw processing in their products, or any other little "anti-competitive" fault they suddenly find to be upsetting? If I were any large american software publisher, I'd probably charge double in Europe, just to build up a nice security cushion for exactly that kind of possibility. Based on recent events, wouldn't you?
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Ray
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 11:42:24 PM »
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Which is fine when it comes to manufacturing and distributing say a physical product like a Mountain Bike, but when you are downloading data from the same server as an American, we should all pay the same price. It's not as if Adobe are paying for the transport of bytes aross the Atlantic. It's a completely new business model using the old pricing structure simply to rip off customers.
Set the price in dollars and let the punter pay the equivalemnt in his/her own currency. Other software I've abroad purchased works that way.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I use quite a few programs that are not available in the shops, such as Vuescan, Qimage, Neat Image, Focus Magic etc. These programs seem to be only available through download and all support has to be through email or internet forums.

It seems that Adobe is in a different category, perhaps because it's an 800 LB gorilla with a big family to support. How would you feel as a U.K. resident having to speak to someone over in America every time you had a problem with one of Adobe's products? I mean, they don't even speak proper English over there, do they?  
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jjj
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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2008, 07:43:21 AM »
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And you wonder why they charge more in Europe? Are you really thinking this through? Microsoft just got slammed with a gigantic fine by the EU. Do you really think any manager is going to expose his company to that kind of risk without getting something in return, like maybe higher profits?

What's to keep the EU from tying up Adobe in a protracted legal suit over incorporating raw processing in their products, or any other little "anti-competitive" fault they suddenly find to be upsetting? If I were any large american software publisher, I'd probably charge double in Europe, just to build up a nice security cushion for exactly that kind of possibility. Based on recent events, wouldn't you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180749\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Uh, I think you haven't thought this through. You only get taken to court if you break the law. So breaking the law to make more money for when you get fined for breaking the law is not smart.
Besides I was not talking about anti competive behaviour [which is a different issue], I was talking about non-uniform prices across the EU. Imagine if a European software company charged all Americans 50-100% more than Europeans and also varied it by State. How would you feel about that.
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jjj
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« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2008, 07:51:33 AM »
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I use quite a few programs that are not available in the shops, such as Vuescan, Qimage, Neat Image, Focus Magic etc. These programs seem to be only available through download and all support has to be through email or internet forums.

It seems that Adobe is in a different category, perhaps because it's an 800 LB gorilla with a big family to support. How would you feel as a U.K. resident having to speak to someone over in America every time you had a problem with one of Adobe's products? I mean, they don't even speak proper English over there, do they? 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180754\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Seeing as in the UK, you invariably speak to someone overseas when you ring any support line and usually to someone whose first language is certainly not English and has a very difficult accent to understand, I'd happily ring the US, as they do in fact speak correct English.

Besides Adobe is notoriously tightlipped about admitting to problems and pathetically slow at fixing them. The 'Fix' is usually to buy the next version, with fresh new bugs. As for the big family to support, how come Adobe always claims lack of resources when it come to fixing their software and small 1-2 man bands who produce brilliant and equally complex software, manage to update continually.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2008, 10:32:18 AM »
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... they also charge different prices across Europe, which is very iffy ground. I don't understand why the EU haven't taken them to court yet....

Would it be fair to assume that EU was too busy considering taking European companies to court first? For example:

"... In a survey of car prices within the EU, the commission said the pretax price of the Peugeot 307 could differ by 30 percent from the cheapest and most expensive markets... The price of the Volkswagen Golf differs by up to 34 percent ..." International Herald Tribune, July 18, 2002.

Or:

"... Dramatic price differences... have become rarer with the start of the euro currency zone in 2002, but people can still make big savings by going abroad to buy a car..." International Herald Tribune, January 29, 2008.

 
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Misirlou
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2008, 12:48:51 PM »
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Uh, I think you haven't thought this through. You only get taken to court if you break the law. So breaking the law to make more money for when you get fined for breaking the law is not smart.
Besides I was not talking about anti competive behaviour [which is a different issue], I was talking about non-uniform prices across the EU. Imagine if a European software company charged all Americans 50-100% more than Europeans and also varied it by State. How would you feel about that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You're making my point. Thank you.

How do you know if you're "breaking the law" without paying for a legion of expensive, specialized lawyers? The EU has decided that Microsoft "broke the law" in some way, when whatever they did was apparently acceptable in the US. I read some of the details of that one, and it sounds like a lot of nonsense to me, but then I'm not a specialist in corporate law in the EU. So if a big software corporation is going to operate in Europe, they're going to have to charge more, to limit their exposure to a different set of laws. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Legal vulnerability is only one driver. Then there's the cost of maintaining offices, paying people to provide tech support in different languages, maintaining a local billing staff, etc. They sell far fewer copies of the software in the EU than they do in the US, so those costs have to be recovered with with higher per unit prices.

I have no idea why their products might be cheaper in different countries within the EU, but I'd suspect different costs of doing business in those countries. For example, it's a heck of a lot more expensive to staff an office in London (which is always at the top of the list of high-cost cities globally) than it is just about anywhere else.

Prices are not uniform accross the US either: Retail prices vary tremendously from place to place. If Adobe quotes a standard price for some product in the US, you can bet that's for something that will be distributed from a central location, and not something people will be picking up at each different retailer. Adobe has no control of what a specific retailer might charge anyway.

Now I'm not suggesting that I'm in love with Adobe's pricing policies. Most software vendors charge an initial price, and then a small amount for upgrades. Adobe's initial purchase costs are incredibly high, and the upgrade path has gotten extremely muddy lately. If I couldn't make use of the education discount, I would never have been able to afford any of their products, because I don't make money in the photo business. And even with that discount, I only upgrade at every other version. I have plenty of other software that I upgrade much more often.

On the other hand, Adobe's customer service is way better than most. The products tend to be a lot more stable and clean-running than I'm used to from many other companies (including Micrisoft). They're also pretty innovative, and responsive. Look how quickly they come up with raw converters for new cameras. Still, I think they'd make more money if they charged lower unti prices, because they'd increase the size of the customer base. Perhaps they have marketing studies that suggest otherwise.
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feppe
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2008, 01:42:36 PM »
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How do you know if you're "breaking the law" without paying for a legion of expensive, specialized lawyers? The EU has decided that Microsoft "broke the law" in some way, when whatever they did was apparently acceptable in the US.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bad example. MS has been brought to court in several states in the US on anti-competitive practices, with varying degrees of success.
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sniper
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2008, 01:59:05 PM »
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Ray I think you'll find the "European" market is in fact bigger than the US market, europe isn't only the UK,  Germany and France anymore, it's huge.  Wayne
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2008, 02:31:45 PM »
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Ray I think you'll find the "European" market is in fact bigger than the US market, europe isn't only the UK,  Germany and France anymore, it's huge.  Wayne
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure... it also has 27 different languages (give or take a few), 27 different legislations, multiple currencies (only 15 of 27 have euro). In other words, extremely simple to deal with as a single market.  
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« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2008, 04:31:50 PM »
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Bad example. MS has been brought to court in several states in the US on anti-competitive practices, with varying degrees of success.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180913\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not for the same issue as this last EU fine. You aren't suggesting US corporations have no need to maintain a special legal staff for understanding EU law, are you?

That's my point. Europe is not the US. The legal, business, and market conditions are drastically different. That implies that simply selling a product designed for the US market in Europe, without any modification or careful (read expensive) planning is neither wise, nor even possible.
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feppe
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« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2008, 05:31:02 PM »
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Not for the same issue as this last EU fine. You aren't suggesting US corporations have no need to maintain a special legal staff for understanding EU law, are you?

That's my point. Europe is not the US. The legal, business, and market conditions are drastically different. That implies that simply selling a product designed for the US market in Europe, without any modification or careful (read expensive) planning is neither wise, nor even possible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180954\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wasn't suggesting that, just commenting that Europe is certainly not the only legislation where MS has been found guilty of anti-competitive practices.
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jjj
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2008, 06:15:59 PM »
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You're making my point. Thank you.

How do you know if you're "breaking the law" without paying for a legion of expensive, specialized lawyers? The EU has decided that Microsoft "broke the law" in some way, when whatever they did was apparently acceptable in the US. I read some of the details of that one, and it sounds like a lot of nonsense to me, but then I'm not a specialist in corporate law in the EU. So if a big software corporation is going to operate in Europe, they're going to have to charge more, to limit their exposure to a different set of laws. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Legal vulnerability is only one driver. Then there's the cost of maintaining offices, paying people to provide tech support in different languages, maintaining a local billing staff, etc. They sell far fewer copies of the software in the EU than they do in the US, so those costs have to be recovered with with higher per unit prices.

I have no idea why their products might be cheaper in different countries within the EU, but I'd suspect different costs of doing business in those countries. For example, it's a heck of a lot more expensive to staff an office in London (which is always at the top of the list of high-cost cities globally) than it is just about anywhere else.

Prices are not uniform accross the US either: Retail prices vary tremendously from place to place. If Adobe quotes a standard price for some product in the US, you can bet that's for something that will be distributed from a central location, and not something people will be picking up at each different retailer. Adobe has no control of what a specific retailer might charge anyway.

Now I'm not suggesting that I'm in love with Adobe's pricing policies. Most software vendors charge an initial price, and then a small amount for upgrades. Adobe's initial purchase costs are incredibly high, and the upgrade path has gotten extremely muddy lately. If I couldn't make use of the education discount, I would never have been able to afford any of their products, because I don't make money in the photo business. And even with that discount, I only upgrade at every other version. I have plenty of other software that I upgrade much more often.

On the other hand, Adobe's customer service is way better than most. The products tend to be a lot more stable and clean-running than I'm used to from many other companies (including Micrisoft). They're also pretty innovative, and responsive. Look how quickly they come up with raw converters for new cameras. Still, I think they'd make more money if they charged lower unti prices, because they'd increase the size of the customer base. Perhaps they have marketing studies that suggest otherwise.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wasn't making your point actually.
Briefly -

You don't need to  be a lawyer to know that you are breaking laws by huge EU price differentials - it's effing obvious. Companies do it because they gamble that they can make more money than the fines may cost.

London offices, translations blah, blah not relevant if I download from Adobe Server and it costs the same for a Spanish version if bought in the US. I simply get charged more because of my billing address. I've never used the London Offices, so wouldn't care if they weren't there.

Adobe products stable!! - tell that to those suffering from the P.o.S that Bridge is currently for many or those that endured the 'printing from PS' cock up. That's on both Mac + the PC BTW.
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Ray
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2008, 07:14:02 PM »
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Australia has a fairly small population, yet Adobe Systems is listed in my local telephone directory with separate numbers for Installation & Warranty Support and Technical Support. They have an office in NSW.

Since Americans actually do speak English quite well   , I'd be happy to download Adobe software from the internet, as I do with many other programs, and just pay a standard license fee. I'm a great believer in the potential of the internet to increase business efficiency.

The only time I recall phoning Adobe in Australia was fairly recently when I was trying to work out what additional features CS3E had over CS3 that might be useful for me. As it happened, I got better information from this forum on that topic.

However, if I was running a business where time is money, and using a variety of Adobe products, I might think it worth paying the initial extra cost of the software in order to be able to speak to someone in my own country any time of the day, if I were having installation or technical problems.

I'd also be a bit concerned about those users who either don't speak (or understand) English or speak it poorly. From a 'user pays' perspective, the higher price of Adobe products in their native language, necessary to cover the costs of development and associated support in their native language, might make the products unviable.

In other words, people in English speaking countries such as the U.K and Australia, could probably get by without any local Adobe support, but what about France, Italy and Spain, to mention just a few countries where English is not widely spoken?
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CatOne
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2008, 09:36:17 PM »
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Ray I think you'll find the "European" market is in fact bigger than the US market, europe isn't only the UK,  Germany and France anymore, it's huge.  Wayne
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In terms of sales for most companies, the US market is larger than the entire EU market.  We're talking in terms of dollars here.

Note, if it were broken out as a separate country, California's economy would be the fourth largest in the WORLD, from what I recall.  So the EU has a ways to go to match the US in overall sales.

Most software companies I've worked at sold about 60% of their stuff in the US, 30% in the EU, and 10% in AsiaPac.
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Misirlou
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2008, 11:36:18 PM »
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I wasn't making your point actually.
Briefly -

You don't need to  be a lawyer to know that you are breaking laws by huge EU price differentials - it's effing obvious. Companies do it because they gamble that they can make more money than the fines may cost.

London offices, translations blah, blah not relevant if I download from Adobe Server and it costs the same for a Spanish version if bought in the US. I simply get charged more because of my billing address. I've never used the London Offices, so wouldn't care if they weren't there.

Adobe products stable!! - tell that to those suffering from the P.o.S that Bridge is currently for many or those that endured the 'printing from PS' cock up. That's on both Mac + the PC BTW.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok. Got it. You're right. There's nothing to consider when establishing a market presence halfway around the world. No issue at all. Just charge everybody the same and let the chips fall where they may. Same exact costs to deal with Americans next door as Finns, Poles, Thais, and Tajiks 12 time zones from home. Right. And you guys like to say we're naive...

I've never downloaded an Adobe product from the net myself. Patches and updates sure, but I get my major releases shrinkwrapped, usually with multiple DVDs and a couple of books. I don't really think I would prefer to pull all that in over the net, but hey, whatever floats your boat. I've had no printing problems with Photoshop, although I prefer Qimage. No crashes here either. Sorry.

Look, if you think Adobe is an evil corporate monster, and you don't like its products, I suggest you not buy them. But you seem to simply be declaring that you want to pay less, or you'll call mommy government to go beat up Adobe if you don't get your way. Good luck with that.
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Misirlou
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« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2008, 12:06:54 AM »
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I wasn't suggesting that, just commenting that Europe is certainly not the only legislation where MS has been found guilty of anti-competitive practices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, but it's sort of like prosecuting Al Capone for tax evasion. It might work to some limited extent in the short run, but only because you lack the means or the will to go after the real problem. The EU suit, and the other assorted legal attacks over bundled browsers and media players is just silly. Oh yeah, all those other O/S superpowers were locked out of the martketplace by Microsoft's nefarious Media Player and it's hyper-fantastic web browser. We could all be running Amiga DOS 10.9 by now, or happily processing our photos on CP/M machines, but that darned Microsoft had to go and set their own search tool as default in their web browser! What tremendous corruption!

If someone really wanted to keep Microsoft from becoming the gorilla it is now, the time was back when huge buyers, like the US government and large corporations, signed massive flat-rate deals with suppliers for standard spec workstations bundled with Windows and Office in the late 80s to early 90s. That's what really allowed them to take control of the market. The whining about Explorer and Media Player came long after that, after they'd already become the biggest player.

Have you noticed that the lawsuits are no longer the big news they were a few years ago? You know what's changed? Bill Gates used to completely ignore the political chattering in DC. Not so any more. Microsoft is just as comitted to buttering up the politicians as every other huge corporation now. Plenty of campaign contributions get spread around on all sides now.

Ironically, they appear to be losing market share now, but for reasons completely unrelated to the punishment inflicted by the legal attacks. I would not have predicted that Vista would be so slow to take off. Sure, it was buggy and clunky at first, but no more so than Windows 3.0 or 95 were. Don't even get me started on Windows 2 - a truly useless nightmare of a DOS shell, yet people still bought.

If Adobe would ever build a LINUX version of Photoshop, I might be able to finally cut Microsoft loose completely. That's what you guys should really be complaining to Adobe about.
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jjj
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« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2008, 07:45:19 AM »
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Ok. Got it. You're right. There's nothing to consider when establishing a market presence halfway around the world. No issue at all. Just charge everybody the same and let the chips fall where they may. Same exact costs to deal with Americans next door as Finns, Poles, Thais, and Tajiks 12 time zones from home. Right. And you guys like to say we're naive...

I've never downloaded an Adobe product from the net myself. Patches and updates sure, but I get my major releases shrinkwrapped, usually with multiple DVDs and a couple of books. I don't really think I would prefer to pull all that in over the net, but hey, whatever floats your boat. I've had no printing problems with Photoshop, although I prefer Qimage. No crashes here either. Sorry.

Look, if you think Adobe is an evil corporate monster, and you don't like its products, I suggest you not buy them. But you seem to simply be declaring that you want to pay less, or you'll call mommy government to go beat up Adobe if you don't get your way. Good luck with that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181021\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Grow up, in the UK it is very common for us to have to pay more simply as it's the UK when there is no actual economic reason to. Apple have been censured for it with iTunes for example, the UK paid more than Europe. [span style=\'font-size:12pt;line-height:100%\']Companies do it because they can get away with it[/span],  I and many others are fed up with that corporate thieving attitude. The commonly used term here in UK is 'Rip off Britain'. Apart from anything else, there is a huge variance in the extra % amount demanded for an Adobe product destined for a UK address.

So you've never downloaded software, well that's of no relevence to those of us who have and maybe if it saved you $2,000 dollars you would. Also, just because you haven't had software problems doesn't mean everyone else is OK too. Would you tell those who bought faulty Canons of late that they were talking nonsense, if say yours worked fine?

Can you really justify Brits paying up to 100% more for an identical product that has no extra shipping/production costs. IIRC, you also get more support/aftersales service help in US than here too.
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