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Author Topic: New Mamiya-Phase One body announced  (Read 34380 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #120 on: March 19, 2008, 07:40:15 PM »
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Sorry James, to jump in, but I have to correct some unfair statements:

1. I doubt you can find many product announcements from Sinar which have then not proven to come at the promised release date, with exception of the Hy6 camera (announced PK and promised for June 07, finally starting delivery mid of November '07) and the eXposure SW (it seems to me that other SW brands have been announced well in advance as well and did not show up at the promised date).

You are claiming that Sinar has a tradition of announcing purposely products to create a marketing spin: in the contrary, this is certainly not our style, and if that has happened, than it is far from the reasons you believe it to be.

2. Concerning prices: the different systems prices in the US have been published by Sinar's distributor and dealers. If you would compare these prices with those of the 2 others brand systems available, you would see that your claim is wrong.

Then: there is not only the US which counts here. I can tell you that our pricing is in many countries BELOW our competition.

Claiming that Sinar products are over-priced is misleading and unfair.

3. I won't extrapolate anymore on the "Open Platform" issue: I have explained and we have explained what this system can do and which backs with it is compatible, since December '06.

Best regards,
Thierry



Quote
.... taken a page out of the Leaf/Sinar style of product annoucements which is to produce a spiffy announcement but just say it with an asterick attached.

To Phase's credit at least they didn't make an "open platform" that's only available to Phase and ZD back owners and they didn't price it like a 5 series BMW.

JR
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« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 07:40:42 PM by thsinar » Logged

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« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2008, 09:19:44 PM »
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I've been too busy to jump into the discussion so far but I think it's funny how worked up everyone is getting.

I remember in the past there was a launch by Nikon of 2 new CoolPix consumer digicams, but for a month, they had a promo splash on their website with mysterious, tantalizing clues of what the new digicams were like, but of course, they really gave away little - something about a double surprise, seeing the world in a new way, which led some people to conclude that they were going to launch a stereoscopic Nikon CoolPix! Personally, my logic tells me that a Stereoscopic CoolPix isn't what the mass market wants, so they're not going to make that, but I guess sometimes you never know for sure...

Bottom line is, in my opinion, what Mamiya and Phase One did is good business. Good for their businesses, and for me:
- It has raised my impression and confidence of Mamiya as a company with a future.
- It makes Phase One more interesting too, although the transformation for me for Phase One is not as drastic as that for Mamiya.
- It's really great that we're getting momentum now with medium format digital - Sinar with the Hy6,  Mamiya with the updated AFDIII, updated ZD back, Phase One with the Phase One 645 AF camera, all in quite a short space of time (relatively speaking for medium format), it makes it very exciting.

No doubt, maybe existing AFDII users may look at it and think that there might not be enough in there to make them upgrade, but nobody's saying you have to. But for people who've been sitting on the sidelines thinking the Hassy H3D was too expensive for them, whatever the actual pricing/deals realities may be, may be tipped by Mamiya becoming a stronger choice again. Mamiya FINALLY came out with the RB67 adapter for the ZD back, which should have been release last year and I think that will help things along further. No doubt the ZD back has a ways to go to improve - e.g., tethered shooting performance, long exposure image quality, but from a business side of things, it all looks good to me...

My 2cents...
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« Reply #122 on: March 19, 2008, 11:48:53 PM »
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Claiming that Sinar products are over-priced is misleading and unfair.


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TH

Whether sinar is 'over priced' is one thing - it definitely looks the most expensive in the UK

[a href=\"http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2077&cat=48]Sinar £21700 Lens unkown[/url]

H3dII with 28mm £19975

P45 mamiya and 28mm £20775

----

In terms of announcements one cant win as a producer either you are teasing the market or stittching up your userbase

Imagine how people would have felt buying a D2x the day befroe the D3 hit the streets

There would have beeen all sorts of 'stock clearance' conspiracies

But most manufacturers use language that doesnt inspire trust

The developers of exposure coud run a blog - this is the battles we are fighting today - these are the great feature requests we are getting from our users and how we are integrating them and why that is causing delay

Anyway for this Phase camera to be attractive to me I need leaf lenses, they can tease all they want but I wont buy the thing until they actually exist preferably in the used market

Its not like my H1 is a bad camera

SMM
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 11:51:05 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #123 on: March 19, 2008, 11:50:05 PM »
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Sorry James, to jump in, but I have to correct some unfair statements:

1. I doubt you can find many product announcements from Sinar which have then not proven to come at the promised release date, with exception of the Hy6 camera (announced PK and promised for June 07, finally starting delivery mid of November '07) and the eXposure SW (it seems to me that other SW brands have been announced well in advance as well and did not show up at the promised date).

You are claiming that Sinar has a tradition of announcing purposely products to create a marketing spin: in the contrary, this is certainly not our style, and if that has happened, than it is far from the reasons you believe it to be.

2. Concerning prices: the different systems prices in the US have been published by Sinar's distributor and dealers. If you would compare these prices with those of the 2 others brand systems available, you would see that your claim is wrong.

Then: there is not only the US which counts here. I can tell you that our pricing is in many countries BELOW our competition.

Claiming that Sinar products are over-priced is misleading and unfair.

3. I won't extrapolate anymore on the "Open Platform" issue: I have explained and we have explained what this system can do and which backs with it is compatible, since December '06.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Theirry,

Your taking me too seriously man.

But for the record I didn't say Sinar was overpriced, actually I don't know the price of a Sinar as I have never asked.  I don't even think the HY6 is overpriced if that is the camera spins your bullet, but I do think it is very expensive and out of hasselblad, phase and Rollei/Leaf/Sinar it seems to be the most costly of the new medium format cameras, especially when you factor in lenses.

For digital backs, it seems everybody is the same price, though I'm sure I'll be corrected on this if I'm $4 off.

Now as far as the asterisk, let's be realistic, there are a lot of companies out there with a lot of missed deadlines on software and hardware (see your reference #1) and no buyer set the deadlines, the makers did,  so a missed deadline is a missed deadline regardless of the motivation or reason.

In the past I've gone through the routine of paying retail then waiting for hardware, firmware and software fixes and though all the delays may have logical reasons and are well meaning, the manufacturer didn't put a note on their website that said, "hey hold off 6 months cause we're not ready yet", in fact the literature usually says the opposite.

For me I waited as long as I could, then I switched.

Nobody said this was easy and I'm sure making cameras, backs and software is a highly specialized skill set, especially for a small specific market and I'm very glad that all the makers of digital backs are still producing.

Still, until all of these cameras, lenses, accessories and software (your company very much included) are on the shelf with everything on the list ready to use and buy, on the dates promised, then there are some undeniable asterisks in place.

As far as unfair, well I guess that depends on whether your the seller or the buyer.

But back to the  origin of this thread which is the new Phase One, Mamiya Camera.

Right now on paper most of it looks pretty good and another alternative for photographers.

Nothing wrong with that as long as development continues.

JR
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thsinar
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« Reply #124 on: March 20, 2008, 12:39:42 AM »
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hi Sam,

1. Prices

The recommended Sinar price for this kit is £ 20'100

the Hy6-e75 kit includes the 2.8/80 AFD. Included in this price is the Sinar STANDARD 3-year warranty (Camera, Back, Lens and Accessories).

if you go to "Terms & Conditions" you shall see that the H3D 39 Kit comes with a 12-month warranty, only. Now we should know how much would cost an extension to 3 years warranty, but my guess is that it should be around £ 2'000.-

As for the P45+ kit: the "standard" warranty is 12 month. The "Valued Added Warranty" does cover a swap-out of the back (not camera/lens) while yours is repaired: which probably means that you have to pay the repair costs (not clear in the description), but I might be wrong.

If you take this in consideration and read the conditions, then I don't see such a big difference as to be able to claim "Serie 5 BMW" prices, in the contrary.

2. Announcements

You are right, we will always have it difficult, as manufacturers: when you don't inform it makes people say that nothing happen with this company, when you do and your product doesn't ship exactly in time, then it's criticized as well.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
TH

Whether sinar is 'over priced' is one thing - it definitely looks the most expensive in the UK

Sinar £21700 Lens unkown

H3dII with 28mm £19975

P45 mamiya and 28mm £20775

----

In terms of announcements one cant win as a producer either you are teasing the market or stittching up your userbase

Imagine how people would have felt buying a D2x the day befroe the D3 hit the streets

There would have beeen all sorts of 'stock clearance' conspiracies

But most manufacturers use language that doesnt inspire trust

The developers of exposure coud run a blog - this is the battles we are fighting today - these are the great feature requests we are getting from our users and how we are integrating them and why that is causing delay

Anyway for this Phase camera to be attractive to me I need leaf lenses, they can tease all they want but I wont buy the thing until they actually exist preferably in the used market

Its not like my H1 is a bad camera

SMM
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #125 on: March 20, 2008, 12:50:16 AM »
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hi James,

Yes, I do take you seriously!

 

See my previous post above concerning Sinar prices of the described and compared kit: one always forgets that Sinar has a STANDARD 3-Year Warranty, for all products and since back to the analog age.

I agree with you on the "missed deadlines": whatever the reason, it is missed, but please don't put us at the point of your gun

On a side note: I did appreciate your previous posts to this one and read with great interest. Makes a lot of sense, all you are saying.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Theirry,

Your taking me too seriously man.

But for the record I didn't say Sinar was overpriced, actually I don't know the price of a Sinar as I have never asked.  I don't even think the HY6 is overpriced if that is the camera spins your bullet, but I do think it is very expensive and out of hasselblad, phase and Rollei/Leaf/Sinar it seems to be the most costly of the new medium format cameras, especially when you factor in lenses.

For digital backs, it seems everybody is the same price, though I'm sure I'll be corrected on this if I'm $4 off.

Now as far as the asterisk, let's be realistic, there are a lot of companies out there with a lot of missed deadlines on software and hardware (see your reference #1) and no buyer set the deadlines, the makers did,  so a missed deadline is a missed deadline regardless of the motivation or reason.

In the past I've gone through the routine of paying retail then waiting for hardware, firmware and software fixes and though all the delays may have logical reasons and are well meaning, the manufacturer didn't put a note on their website that said, "hey hold off 6 months cause we're not ready yet", in fact the literature usually says the opposite.

For me I waited as long as I could, then I switched.

Nobody said this was easy and I'm sure making cameras, backs and software is a highly specialized skill set, especially for a small specific market and I'm very glad that all the makers of digital backs are still producing.

Still, until all of these cameras, lenses, accessories and software (your company very much included) are on the shelf with everything on the list ready to use and buy, on the dates promised, then there are some undeniable asterisks in place.

As far as unfair, well I guess that depends on whether your the seller or the buyer.

But back to the  origin of this thread which is the new Phase One, Mamiya Camera.

Right now on paper most of it looks pretty good and another alternative for photographers.

Nothing wrong with that as long as development continues.

JR
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2008, 01:38:29 AM »
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hi Sam,

1. Prices

If you take this in consideration and read the conditions, then I don't see such a big difference as to be able to claim "Serie 5 BMW" prices, in the contrary.

2. Announcements

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Prices
Yeah James is (as ever) right they all cost 'about the same'

I used to drive a really good BMW750 that cost half of those prices BTW !

---

It is to me interesting that you cant sell James a Hy6 - he would seem to be on profile - not wide obsessed  and prepared I would imagine to pay quite a lot for a comfortable day shooting uprights at decent synch speeds with creamy lenses

Anyway about the Phase..
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #127 on: March 20, 2008, 08:30:13 AM »
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hi Sam,



As for the P45+ kit: the "standard" warranty is 12 month. The "Valued Added Warranty" does cover a swap-out of the back (not camera/lens) while yours is repaired: which probably means that you have to pay the repair costs (not clear in the description), but I might be wrong.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just so we're clear, the Value Added Warranty is exactly that, a 3 year WARRANTY with a loaner back provided while the back is being serviced, and as such all costs of repair are covered by Phase One except in situations where the customer damaged the back (such as impact damage, dunking in the ocean, etc.). In addition, the photographer receives the loaner back BEFORE sending in their back for servicing.

Hope this helps,
Ron
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thsinar
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« Reply #128 on: March 20, 2008, 08:37:08 AM »
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Thanks to clarify this, Ron, it was not stated under the conditions.
I have seen the price in Europe of such a "Value Added Warranty": it's Euro 4'000.- in addition to the normal 1 year warranty price (for all kits).

Do you know if this covers also the camera/lens, or only the back?

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Just so we're clear, the Value Added Warranty is exactly that, a 3 year WARRANTY with a loaner back provided while the back is being serviced, and as such all costs of repair are covered by Phase One except in situations where the customer damaged the back (such as impact damage, dunking in the ocean, etc.). In addition, the photographer receives the loaner back BEFORE sending in their back for servicing.

Hope this helps,
Ron
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« Reply #129 on: March 20, 2008, 10:16:25 AM »
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Prices
Yeah James is (as ever) right they all cost 'about the same'

I used to drive a really good BMW750 that cost half of those prices BTW !

---

It is to me interesting that you cant sell James a Hy6 - he would seem to be on profile - not wide obsessed  and prepared I would imagine to pay quite a lot for a comfortable day shooting uprights at decent synch speeds with creamy lenses

Anyway about the Phase..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm good on talking numbers in this business, actually I run the numbers so often on production you'd think my profession was cost accountant.  

Like a lot of people that do what I do I also have to invest in other areas, cameras being just one component.  We're redoing a studio in Paris and 20,000 Euro for furniture will go a lot further for my business than switching out camera bodies.

As I mentioned that using the contax for  $50,000 US, I have 4 bodies, 13 lenses and two digital backs a p21+ and a P30+ and no wide is not my primary lens and I need to use a 35 only about 3 times a year, but when I need it I really need it.  Now a 18mp digital back may not seem like state of the art, though it's a very good looking 18mp and offers a different look to the P-30+ so this is a pretty good combination for the price.

I did have some concern going to a more cropped sensor size, but in reality never really noticed it as if you measure down the long side of the frame the A-22 is actually a 1.14 crop and the P-30 is a 1.24 crop so a 35mm is essentially a 39.9mm or the A-22 and 43.4mm or a P-30.  Not that much difference to me, for some it might be a big difference.

I'm not saying what I use is right for everyone, but at the time I decided to switch backs, I looked at other brands and Hasselblad didn't have a P-30 type sensor(at the time) and both Blad and Sinar files did not work in multiple processors (at the time) without some form of conversion.  

Also the real deal stopper was that Hasselblad and Sinar's new software was still in development and I had gone down the LC10 beta road and wasn't about to use anything until it had been out on the market for some time and had all the bugs worked out.  

Now if I was starting fresh today I'd look at a lot of different cameras (though probably the same backs) and the new Mamiya would get my attention more so because it would go directly on the RZII than just the attributes of the 645.  As everyone mentions (and they are correct) the RZ glass has a softer curve and is perfect for beauty and studio fashion work.  A higher magnification finder would be something that is needed more than any other accessories for the RZ.

Also the RZ is just a great camera, sturdy, professional and well thought out.  The only camera that feels as robust and strong as the RZ, to me, is the Contax.

Still the ability to work in multiple processors for finish can have as dramatic an effect as different cameras and lenses and (once again at the time) shooting compressed the P30 was the only file that went into RD, Lightroom, 3.78 and now V4, without having to do some type of decompression or conversion.  

Shooting medium format adds a quality that the dslrs don't posses, at least when you work a file really deep.  I don't buy into the 3dness of a 645 vs. 35mm frame, though I do see a difference in the capture and I think the absence of a AA filter has a much to do with it as the actually bit depth.

This topic is about cameras and everyone likes talking and comparing cameras and files, though once the real work begins, cameras fall way down the line compared to battle field workflow.

Since I work a lot and am always on some kind of deadline I break the digital process down to three parts.

The first is capture, whether tethered or non tethered and it absolutely, positively must be fast and rock stable.  Nothing is a bigger buzz kill than a dead or jammed computer or back.

The second part and the most agonizing can be the editing, renaming, adjusting and processing to jpegs for web galleries.  From a straight studio day with little light changes all of the cameras and softwares work pretty well, but on those 1,000 frame days when your shooting outside and the light, subjects and exposure is changing every few minutes adjusting thousands of files at midnight to 3am can be something that is paramount to torture if the software is not stable and the adjustments are not easy.

The third and final is processing to finish and though this is where everybody does their comparisons I've found that depending on processor, there really isn't that much difference between all of the major brands.

Still, step one and two are much more important (in my view) than the final step.  When I test and learn a new system I do it as worse case scenario.  I shoot fast, pull the cord, or purposely crash the software and see how easy or difficult it is to get the system back running.  I intentionally shoot over and under exposures of thousands of files and then toss them in the software and see how easy it is to change color, tone, exposure, and how stable a folder of a thousand files is next to a folder of just 100.

Then in the middle of this process I pretend the client wants four images processed and put on the web for immediate review, (as we shoot) or wants to edit down a session for a rush deadline (as we shoot).

These scenarios come up much more often than I'd like to admit and the success of a project, or more important the client perception of success can depend on how quickly and professionally these challenges can be accomplished.

So I use what I use for a lot of reasons, but the worse case scenario is probably the most important.

My cameras are not new, though well proven and cost effective, my on set software v 3.78 is also not new but stable and though I could put more resource to newer cameras until something has really been tested to it's fullest under the most extreme conditions, I don't really want to know about it.

JR
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« Reply #130 on: March 20, 2008, 10:18:36 AM »
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Nice one,Thierry.

It's reassuring that you are as capable of posting inaccurate information about your
competitors as the many  forum posters whom you so routinely 'correct' for doing the same
with regards to Sinar product information.

Mark
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thsinar
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« Reply #131 on: March 20, 2008, 10:42:06 AM »
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Dear Mark,

I beg you pardon?!

did I not say and write it clearly enough in my post?:

"... (not clear in the description), but I might be wrong ..."

For the very reason that I was not sure BECAUSE it was not written: here what it says on this Phase dealer info site:

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?mai...oducts_id=12714
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classic & Value Added Warranties

The P45 + PLUS is available with either one of the following warranties:

Classic Warranty
The standard 12 month manufacturer's RTB (Return To Base) warranty, with no emergency swap-out service.

Value Added Warranty
The best warranty choice for busy pro photographers. An enhanced 3 year High Priority swap-out service, meaning that if your digital back goes down or is damaged - worldwide, Phase One will immediately send out a replacement back for you to use while yours is being repaired.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For me it was not clear at all, and therefore my remark that I might be wrong.

And therefore my "thank you" to Ron for his correction as soon as he had clarified this.

So now I will even add here my apologies, if I have offended you. I have no problems to recognize my mistakes and errors, don't worry about that. And I guess I shall still do a lot of them before being perfect.

As for correcting others: yes, I do correct mistakes, for the sake of trying to provide the right one to those using thee products, not for the sake to contradict others.

Best regards,
Thierry


Quote
Nice one,Thierry.

It's reassuring that you are as capable of posting inaccurate information about your
competitors as the many  forum posters whom you so routinely 'correct' for doing the same
with regards to Sinar product information.

Mark
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« Reply #132 on: March 20, 2008, 11:03:46 AM »
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Thanks to clarify this, Ron, it was not stated under the conditions.
I have seen the price in Europe of such a "Value Added Warranty": it's Euro 4'000.- in addition to the normal 1 year warranty price (for all kits).

Do you know if this covers also the camera/lens, or only the back?

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A warranty is exactly that, a warranty. The camera and lens will be covered for 3 years or 300,000 frames if you purchase a Value Added kit (1 year or 100,000 frames if you buy the Classic kit). The loaner is for the digital back, not the camera or lens. That is the info that Phase One has provided at this time.

Regards,
Ron
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« Reply #133 on: March 20, 2008, 11:08:55 AM »
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So now I will even add here my apologies, if I have offended you. I have no problems to recognize my mistakes and errors, don't worry about that. And I guess I shall still do a lot of them before being perfect.

Thierry,

You certainly owe me no apology.

I was merely struck but the irony of your statement concerning the Phase warranty
and your fairly regular corrections of other forum users who post similar inaccurate statements
concerning the Sinar brand.

Prefacing such statements with "I may be wrong" or other such disclaimers doesn't do anything to
minimize the inaccuracy.


Mark
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« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2008, 11:15:10 AM »
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Certainly, Mark.

You are absolutely right.

You know what?: I will leave this particular topic and look for my 10days-new-born daughter. This is much more fun, much more rewarding and less subject to blames. I was in the belief that we are all adults here, but apparently not: some seem to wait eagerly to point their gun.

I wish you all the best.

Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

You certainly owe me no apology.

I was merely struck but the irony of your statement concerning the Phase warranty
and your fairly regular corrections of other forum users who post similar inaccurate statements
concerning the Sinar brand.

Prefacing such statements with "I may be wrong" or other such disclaimers doesn't do anything to
minimize the inaccuracy.
Mark
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #135 on: March 20, 2008, 12:17:01 PM »
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Sinar is going out of business. (I may be wrong)**

**This is a sarcastic comment referring to an earlier post.
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« Reply #136 on: March 20, 2008, 01:06:52 PM »
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Unless someone reads the entire thread to know what's going, crap like this is not useful for any of us. Sarcasm doesn't work very well in forum text.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183005\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The problem with this, regardless of intent or humor is it goes into the google public domain.

First rule, do no harm.

Let's be realistic, every dealer and manufacturer that is here is bias toward the products they represent, (and so they should be), but Theirry a word to the wise, I',m glad your here but if you go public on this or any other forum your gonna take some hits.  So does everyone, myself included.

It's just the costs for sharing information.

Photographers are usually bias towards the equipment they use becuase it's thier hard work that allowed them to make the purchase, so a lot of these differences of view are just natural and predictable.

Still, I'm glad we have representation from the reps and dealers as long as it doesn't become banner ad central and would love to see representation from Hasselblad, Phase, Nikon and Canon.



JR
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 01:13:22 PM by James R Russell » Logged

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« Reply #137 on: March 20, 2008, 01:40:21 PM »
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I for one went the Mamiya/Phase route and I'm very happy I did, but I am equally excited whenever ANY camera maker announces new products and advancements, because I love to have choices and I think competition is good for everybody. The last year has been exciting and the MF market is seemingly alive and well again after some turbulent times. I'm no fan-boy, so whenever I'm upgrading my equipment I always weigh my options, and in the end hand over my hard-earned cash to whomever gives me most bang for the buck.
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BJNY
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« Reply #138 on: March 20, 2008, 05:27:40 PM »
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First rule, do no harm.

Second rule might be:  
Read twice, or three times before replying
to avoid misinterpreting and misunderstanding.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #139 on: March 20, 2008, 05:59:55 PM »
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I think we should give Thierry a brake, he is what-you-see-is-what-you-get. He happens to represent -in a non official way- one of the main players, Sinar, that is coming out with an interesting new system. There is a reason why nobody from Leaf, Hasselblad,Mamiya, posts here regularly and that is because posters will go personal with them whenever they feel frustrated with their products.

 Why don't we reboot and reset the dialog??

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Certainly, Mark.

You are absolutely right.

You know what?: I will leave this particular topic and look for my 10days-new-born daughter. This is much more fun, much more rewarding and less subject to blames. I was in the belief that we are all adults here, but apparently not: some seem to wait eagerly to point their gun.

I wish you all the best.

Thierry
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The important thing is not to stop questioning---Albert Einstein.
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