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Author Topic: New Mamiya-Phase One body announced  (Read 35952 times)
RobertJ
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2008, 03:23:33 PM »
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Am I the only one thinking that there's nothing really new about this camera?

No.  We really need more specs, because if this is all it is, then it's nothing new.  The "European" lenses are actually old lenses that can be used with an adapter, much like Canon users use Leica, Contax/Zeiss, Hasselblad, Olympus, Pentax, and more with an adapter on their bodies.  

I never thought a camera company would encourage the use of other branded lenses with an adapter on their own camera body.  

Need more info...
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jonstewart
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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2008, 03:43:48 PM »
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No.  We really need more specs, because if this is all it is, then it's nothing new.  The "European" lenses are actually old lenses that can be used with an adapter, much like Canon users use Leica, Contax/Zeiss, Hasselblad, Olympus, Pentax, and more with an adapter on their bodies. 

I never thought a camera company would encourage the use of other branded lenses with an adapter on their own camera body. 

Need more info...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, 'cos if it's nothing new, it's going to be huge disappointment. So, was the talk about leaf shutter lenses just 'smoke and mirrors' - I hope not!
J
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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2008, 03:57:34 PM »
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Yeah, 'cos if it's nothing new, it's going to be huge disappointment. So, was the talk about leaf shutter lenses just 'smoke and mirrors' - I hope not!
J
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I'm beginning to this this was an unfounded rumour. In order for this camera to be able to use leaf shutter lenses, it would be necessary for the focal plane shutter to be able to be locked open, and the flash sync taken from the leaf shutter, as well as a modification to the lens mount to facilitate the leaf shutter control. Why would these new features be missing from the release? Perhaps the Pentacon lenses are the rumoured 'european' lenses and that's all the news. I could be wrong but I just don't see Mamiya pulling off a whole new set of lenses. The existing lenses from european manufacturers are 6x6 so it would not be a simple matter of taking existing designs and attaching different mounts.
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« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2008, 04:02:22 PM »
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Wednesday is not too far away for all to be revealed.
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« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2008, 04:05:44 PM »
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I'm beginning to this this was an unfounded rumour. In order for this camera to be able to use leaf shutter lenses, it would be necessary for the focal plane shutter to be able to be locked open, and the flash sync taken from the leaf shutter, as well as a modification to the lens mount to facilitate the leaf shutter control. Why would these new features be missing from the release? Perhaps the Pentacon lenses are the rumoured 'european' lenses and that's all the news. I could be wrong but I just don't see Mamiya pulling off a whole new set of lenses. The existing lenses from european manufacturers are 6x6 so it would not be a simple matter of taking existing designs and attaching different mounts.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree, my thinking has been "Why would they be re-releasing old lens designs as D models and introducing new quite expensive designs such as the 28mm, only to replace them shortly after with a line of leaf shutter lenses?"    

But hey who knows! It will be interesting to find out at least
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2008, 05:22:33 PM »
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"It is the decision to release lenses which still cover 6x6 which is making the wide angle difficult."

There are two things regarding the decision to use 6x6 lenses. One is the image circle. As an example we can see the difference in FX and DX lenses from Nikon.

FX  lenses operating on DX sensors are bigger, more expensive and less efficient than similar FX on FX  sensor. Hy6 decided to go "FX" (66) when sensors are DX (645) and other systems are DX-DX (645-645)

Fine, they can do two things a) wait to hit the lottery with FX (66) sensor and/or  make, say, a 28mm DX -- note that I use DX and FX just so that I can get understood --

But ther is when the second factor will apply, that is: the larger distance from "film" plane to placement  lens element that has to clear the movement of the mirror.

In other words, a Hy6 28 has to be more retro focus than the equivalent 645 equivalent --even it it is a reduced image circle or DX--

If you see the size and cost of the two reflex 28mm lenses in production you can tell how difficult it already is (for 645) to formulate optics that perform at the higher than film expected standards of 49 mp backs.

If you say "Actually a rotating back makes no difference to the size of the image circle" then it means that having a FX format is even more of a gamble -- because the designers could have gone 645 AND produce a rotating back -- since there is no sign in the horizon of Kodak or Dalsa sensor appearing any time soon on 6x6 size.

But suppose they one is developed, Sinar has to make a new back for the larger sensor. You have to take in to consideration that a 6x6 sensor will not replace 6x4.5 format, it would have to fight against it to get adopters, which brings us to the square format. I personally like it, but it is not the "standard" proportion but more like a station wagon, or hatchback -in car analogy-

So, the Hy6 will steel missing wide angle lenses --unless you upgrade to the new square format-- The high cost of producing the larger sensor back will have to be absorbed by a very small potential user base and we don't even know if existing lenses will be good for a full frame sensor since none exist today to run tests.

Regarding Steves comment, I think he is correct in considering Mamiya the value choice, but remember that not so long ago in the film era Hasselblad was the king of medium format until the RZ came and became the choice of a large number of the top photographers not only as the value work horse but also as a better camera because of the rotating back, bellows focusing, leaf lenses and size and proportion of the 6x7 format. Phase One used to have the lion share of the digital backs, so the two together should not be dismissed before the race has even started... i think



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"H system is a closed architecture nothing positive"?

On the contrary, there many positive aspects to the "closed system architecture". More critical focus due to focus adapation and known placement of the sensor in relation to the camera, automatic correction of lens distortion, apochromatic aberrations, and vignetting, etc. My customers find these aspects extremely positive.

There is much positive news on the Hy6 as well. It accepts digitally adjusted Schneider AF lenses, employs a fast and responsive AF system, provides ergonomically advanced camera controls, and will continue to benefit from digital/camera integration into the future.

While I think the Mamiya AFD is a fine camera - I am a Mamiya reseller, and the Aptus 65 with free Mamiya AFDII is a great value right now - let's be honest, it's always been the "value" choice, not the preferred solution. While H2 cameras were in production, they outsold Mamiya cameras by more than 3 to 1 in the US, despite the higher price.

Steve Hendrix
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« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 05:36:04 PM by Leonardo Barreto » Logged

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free1000
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2008, 02:35:44 AM »
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But ther is when the second factor will apply, that is: the larger distance from "film" plane to placement  lens element that has to clear the movement of the mirror.

In other words, a Hy6 28 has to be more retro focus than the equivalent 645 equivalent --even it it is a reduced image circle or DX--

If you see the size and cost of the two reflex 28mm lenses in production you can tell how difficult it already is (for 645) to formulate optics that perform at the higher than film expected standards of 49 mp backs.

Very interesting, I hadn't thought about this, but its the depth of the sensor that dictates flange to focal distance. Looking at the size difference between M645 and an RZ gives some indication of the problem.

Doesn't the larger size of the AFi help though? In terms of exit pupil size and so on. I wonder if there is a tradeoff between size of lens and the flange-focal distance so that things are not as bad for physically larger cameras as you think.

(I still need a 5x4 sensor if anyone is listening by the way - grin)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 02:36:02 AM by free1000 » Logged

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Dustbak
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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2008, 03:41:42 AM »
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"H system is a closed architecture nothing positive"?

On the contrary, there many positive aspects to the "closed system architecture". More critical focus due to focus adapation and known placement of the sensor in relation to the camera, automatic correction of lens distortion, apochromatic aberrations, and vignetting, etc. My customers find these aspects extremely positive.

I still disagree with you here, focus adaptation, known placement of the sensor, automatic lens correction, CA, vignetting can all be done with an open architecture system as well.

It doesn't need to be closed for that, the CF line is an excellent proof of that.

Yes, I do agree all these things are very nice to have and I am very glad that I can use them, at least most of them with my CF. I hope to be able to use even a bit more functionality with my CF in the near future.

A closed architecture is there because of financial reasons mostly which in itself might not be a bad reason but I dislike it when it is still being sold as if it delivers a better system directly. It might give a better system indirectly because it will leave the company in a better financial state in which it has more financial room to deliver better products.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 03:51:11 AM by Dustbak » Logged
pprdigital
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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2008, 12:02:21 PM »
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I still disagree with you here, focus adaptation, known placement of the sensor, automatic lens correction, CA, vignetting can all be done with an open architecture system as well.

It doesn't need to be closed for that, the CF line is an excellent proof of that.

Yes, I do agree all these things are very nice to have and I am very glad that I can use them, at least most of them with my CF. I hope to be able to use even a bit more functionality with my CF in the near future.

A closed architecture is there because of financial reasons mostly which in itself might not be a bad reason but I dislike it when it is still being sold as if it delivers a better system directly. It might give a better system indirectly because it will leave the company in a better financial state in which it has more financial room to deliver better products.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182338\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Advanced focus adaption (like Ultra Focus II) cannot be accomplished with a non-integrated system - at least not the way they're doing it, which is really what matters. The CF can take advantage of DAC level I, II & III, and many other H3D-type of features. But there are several it doesn't take advantage of and potentially some which haven't yet been implemented.

I agree, the cost savings certainly have to be a benefit - some of that has been passed onto consumers, perhaps some of that also enables the purchase of reasonable LCD displays like the 3" display on the H3DII.

I still maintain that getting the camera body involved with the digital magazine will ultimately yield ease of development for further improvements in the product compared to a non-integrated developmental approach - Canon and Nikon have certainly demonstrated this.

Steve Hendrix
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« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 12:07:06 PM by pprdigital » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2008, 02:57:34 PM »
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with pie opening in a few hours, whats the best site(most updated) to get info on the new phase/mamiya? i hope its a cool camera.

paul
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« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2008, 03:11:33 PM »
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with pie opening in a few hours, whats the best site(most updated) to get info on the new phase/mamiya? i hope its a cool camera.

paul
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Michael said he would post an article on Wednesday (I presume Wed morning), so I think Luminous Landscape's What's New page is probably the best place. From what he's said, it seems he has insider knowledge of this.
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lance_schad
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« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2008, 03:31:18 PM »
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Michael said he would post an article on Wednesday (I presume Wed morning), so I think Luminous Landscape's What's New page is probably the best place. From what he's said, it seems he has insider knowledge of this.
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We have a dealer web conference at 7:00pm tonight. As soon as we get the info it will be up on our website @ www.captureintegration.com

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
lance@captureintegration.com
Lance
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« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2008, 03:56:31 PM »
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We have a dealer web conference at 7:00pm tonight. As soon as we get the info it will be up on our website @ www.captureintegration.com
You're my hero :-) I assume that's 7 pm eastern time?
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lance_schad
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« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2008, 04:30:36 PM »
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You're my hero :-) I assume that's 7 pm eastern time?
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Yes

Lance
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jonstewart
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« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2008, 04:47:06 PM »
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Yes

Lance
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You guys are so inconsiderate. You expect me to sit up to Midnight GMT?Huh


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Jon
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michael
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« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2008, 04:50:24 PM »
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The announcement is embargoed until 10 JST Wednesday, which is 9pm EDT Tuesday, which is when my write-up will be placed online. In other words, this evening.

Michael
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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2008, 04:51:10 PM »
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-edited-
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lance_schad
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« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2008, 07:38:41 PM »
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Well the info is up on [a href=\"http://www.phaseone.com]http://www.phaseone.com[/url] and also on our website @ http://www.captureintegratrion.com
New Phase One Body

    * Improved shutter speed range 1/4000th - 60 minutes
    * New AF motor with 3 AF points
    * New digital board
    * Improved dial, shutter, grip ergonomics, AF lever (for AF mode selection)
    * Ready for 120 frames per minute
    * Ready for leaf shutters, expected 2008
    * Value Added Warranty: 3 year or 300,000 actuations (body and lens)
    * Classic Warranty: 1 year or 100,000 actuations (body and lens)

New 80mm F2.8 AF lens

    * Extremely low chromatic aberration
    * Steel barrel
    * New ergonomic design

New Value Added Case

    * Fits a laptop
    * Has roller wheels and handle
    * Room for body and two lenses


Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5701 office
Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year
lance@captureintegration.com
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 09:30:15 PM by lance_schad » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2008, 07:51:19 PM »
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The new 80mm looks like it has an improvement - the Auto/Manual push/pull.
Maybe the body AF is a bit better ?
I guess when the leaf-shutter lenses arrive the studio crowd will be markedly happier.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 07:51:40 PM by eronald » Logged
rgold1963
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« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2008, 08:01:24 PM »
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* Ready for 120 frames per second


Wow!    
That is one fast camera!
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