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Author Topic: Eizo or NEC  (Read 81774 times)
CynthiaM
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« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2008, 08:15:04 AM »
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One thing I really like about it is I can use it as an extended gamut monitor for my photo work, and then quickly switch it to sRGB mode for software that isn't color managed. 


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Alan:
How easy is it to switch into the sRGB mode?  Do you do this through the Spectraview software?  Through the monitor's control button buttons?  When in sRGB mode, is that like using a non wide gamut monitor?

Sounds like 2 for the price of 1.
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AlanG
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« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2008, 08:25:29 AM »
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You can switch between wide gamut and sRGB using the monitor's control buttons.
There are several selections - for sRGB, native, custom, and presets.
There is also NEC NaViSet software that I downloaded that might let you do this via the keyboard but I haven't looked at it yet.  Anway, it takes just a few  seconds to do it via the control buttons and is clear and easy.

Yes it is like 2 for one.  I don't think I'd be happy with a monitor that only works in wide gamut because most programs are not color aware and normal icons and sRGB photos viewed in wide gamut look very punchy.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2008, 10:00:05 AM »
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The sRGB switch isn't really providing you an sRGB display (it may match closer to an older such unit). There's no way to alter the actual chromaticity of the unit. And I don't believe when you do this you're getting a calibrated/profiled sRGB device (you can't calibrate it in this state).
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« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2008, 10:05:55 AM »
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The sRGB switch isn't really providing you an sRGB display (it may match closer to an older such unit). There's no way to alter the actual chromaticity of the unit. And I don't believe when you do this you're getting a calibrated/profiled sRGB device (you can't calibrate it in this state).
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe that sRGB mode is factory set and can't be altered via calibration.   Although I will say that sRGB images viewed casually in this way look about the same to me as in the calibrated full gamut mode when using color managed software.  

But that is not the point. I use the calibrated high gamut mode for my critical photo work and only go to sRGB mode for surfing the web, using other programs, etc.

And I think having even an uncalibrated sRGB mode may be fine to simulate how a lot of my clients and web viewers will actually see the images.

I found this link with an explanation from NEC:

[a href=\"http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1006&message=27593688]http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=27593688[/url]
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 10:21:47 AM by AlanG » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2008, 10:11:29 AM »
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But that is not the point. I use the calibrated high gamut mode for my critical photo work and only go to sRGB mode for surfing the web, using other programs, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True and for some its useful. Even more will be a display technology that actually allows the ability to alter the true chromaticity. By then of course, sRGB may go the way of the dodo bird (if we're lucky).

The other issue is the granularity of editing on a high gamut display that's been discussed here in the past. If you're working on very subtle imagery that falls within the sRGB gamut, setting this wide gamut display into "sRGB" doesn't solve that issue whereby the differences in deltaE between two Neighbor levels is still farther than on a true sRGB device.
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« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2008, 10:59:24 AM »
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The other issue is the granularity of editing on a high gamut display that's been discussed here in the past. If you're working on very subtle imagery that falls within the sRGB gamut, setting this wide gamut display into "sRGB" doesn't solve that issue whereby the differences in deltaE between two Neighbor levels is still farther than on a true sRGB device.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I haven't seen this as a problem and likely never will. I shoot mostly architectural interiors and exteriors.  When editing images, I am just trying to get an overall nice look.  There is no way I actually know exactly what the colors of the scene are once I leave.  I am just relying on my monitor calibration, white balance and overall methodolgy to establish a standard and maintain consistency.

Eventually all of this high gamut and color management will work out.  I've got to say that everything seems fine for me at this point.  I do have a 10 bit per color graphics card but can't make use of it yet. (And the NEC 2690 is just 8 bits as is the software.)  

I used to share a studio with a photographer who did exacting digital product photography.  He had a prepress expert who would convert images to CMYK and then fine tune the colors by looking at the CMYK numbers and comparing them to the actual products.   They had a high end CRT monitor but he didn't rely on it at all. I really don't know how he did it.  And Robert Bagby, my instructor for color printing at RIT somehow could look at a color negative and tell you how to print it.


Any opinion on scRGB?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 01:54:26 PM by AlanG » Logged

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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2008, 11:18:09 AM »
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.... (And the NEC 2690 is just 8 bits as it the software.)  ...
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My understanding is that the 2690 (like all the 90uxi series) has 12-bit internal LUTs which are addressed directly by the Spectraview software.  

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digitaldog
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« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2008, 11:57:05 AM »
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I haven't seen this as a problem and likely never will. I shoot mostly architectural interiors and exteriors.  When editing images, I am just trying to get an overall nice look.  There is no way I actually know exactly what the colors of the scene are once I leave.

Its not necessarily the colors of the scene (that's scene referred and by the time you end up editing, its output referred). More so the gamut of the output referred data. If it falls within sRGB and you need to do very subtle editing, its simply more difficult to see these areas on a wider gamut display.

It may not at all be an issue for some. But it can be for others. IOW, a wide gamut display has significant advantages to those working with wider gamut images (wider than sRGB) but could equally be an issue for those working with lower gamut images doing very subtle color work. There's no free lunch with the current technology.
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« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2008, 12:00:22 PM »
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I used to share a studio with a photographer who did exacting digital product photography.  He had a prepress expert who would convert images to CMYK and then fine tune the colors by looking at the CMYK numbers and comparing them to the actual products.   

Any opinion on scRGB?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190777\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

UNLESS the document is going out to that CMYK device, this is a pretty stupid idea!

I don't know too many color geeks I respect who think we need yet another RGB working space. So scRGB is not anything to worry about, especially since its not installed by Adobe applications for one.
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« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2008, 01:41:39 PM »
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Apple are going lower and lower in display quality.

As for Eizo,it's now pretty much pick and hope in their product line, some of the models are not that good, some are very good.

Regarding the calibrators for those wide-gamut displays, if using a colorimeter, I think I would prefer to use a bundled instrument -which might be 'tuned', rather than the stock Xrite model.

Edmund
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I just bought a NEC LCD 2690WUXi monitor and the Spectraview2 software with the NEC Eye one colorometer.I already had an Eye One display 2 that came with HP APS.
I was told by NEC sales that the colorometer was tuned for the Monitor.Maybe Digital Dog can tell us if the Eye One colorometer is tuned for Just the NEC or did I buy another Eye One Display2 Colorometer for nothing?
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AlanG
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« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2008, 01:51:28 PM »
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UNLESS the document is going out to that CMYK device, this is a pretty stupid idea!

I don't know too many color geeks I respect who think we need yet another RGB working space. So scRGB is not anything to worry about, especially since its not installed by Adobe applications for one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well of course it was going out to a CMYK device - a printed catalog.  He was the color prepress guy.

As for the other person's statement abut the 12 bit LUT.  This is not the same as controlling each color in 10 bits from the software through the graphics card to the monitor.  That way the screen could actually show each color at 10 bits giving a total of over 1 billion possible colors displayed at one time, rather than the current 16.7 million.  That would pretty much take care of any concern about high gamut monitors not having as fine a gradient for photos whose colors fall within the sRGB gamut. (Because all of those 16.7 million colors are spread out over a wider gamut in Adobe RGB they are a bit further apart.)  

I'm not sure if the 12 bit LUT helps this situation as I am really just learning about this subject.  I think this is just an advantage for the calibration.  But it at least should assure you that all shades and colors are available for use.
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Alan Goldstein
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« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2008, 02:01:25 PM »
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Maybe Digital Dog can tell us if the Eye One colorometer is tuned for Just the NEC or did I buy another Eye One Display2 Colorometer for nothing?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Its the same instrument. The only tuned unit was for their LED unit which has been discontinued but still available.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2008, 02:03:56 PM »
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Well of course it was going out to a CMYK device - a printed catalog.  He was the color prepress guy.

Then for anyone else working on an RGB master, its not at all useful.

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As for the other person's statement abut the 12 bit LUT.  This is not the same as controlling each color in 10 bits from the software through the graphics card to the monitor.

We don't have high bit support in the OS or applications. So this at least contains the high bit adjustments to the display, a start.


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That would pretty much take care of any concern about high gamut monitors not having as fine a gradient for photos whose colors fall within the sRGB gamut. (Because all of those 16.7 million colors are spread out over a wider gamut in Adobe RGB they are a bit further apart.) 

It will when the entire system is hight bit, its not at the moment.
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« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2008, 02:52:07 PM »
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Then for anyone else working on an RGB master, its not at all useful.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My point was that this color expert did his fine adjustments to the color numbers and not visually based on what he saw on the monitor.  So not everyone tries to match the monitor to the output.  He was able to envision the final print based on the CMYK numbers. I'm sure he could have done the same with RGB.  

I just thought it was an unusual observation.  I wasn't recommending the technique - I don't expect anyone to become that good.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 02:53:15 PM by AlanG » Logged

Alan Goldstein
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« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2008, 02:55:56 PM »
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My point was that this color expert did his fine adjustments to the color numbers and not visually based on what he saw on the monitor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Its real old school and yes, anyone who KNOWS the output numbers can work this way in RGB. But its severely impractical once you start working with more than one output device.
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« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2008, 03:04:04 PM »
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We don't have high bit support in the OS or applications. So this at least contains the high bit adjustments to the display, a start.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But the 2690 monitor is not capable of 10 bit input from the graphics card even if the OS and applications support it.

Whereas this NEC does support 10 bit input:

[a href=\"http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?product=6eec56b3-7ee7-4487-9e3f-9dd308215618]http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product...3f-9dd308215618[/url]
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Alan Goldstein
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« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2008, 03:11:59 PM »
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My point was that this color expert did his fine adjustments to the color numbers and not visually based on what he saw on the monitor.  So not everyone tries to match the monitor to the output.

That's sort of like driving while blindfolded while someone describes the passing scenery to you. It's only useful if all your output goes to one device; as soon as you switch to a different printer or press all your carefully memorized numbers are useless. It's an interesting circus trick, but not very useful compared to a properly color-managed workflow, which eliminates much of the need to fix color errors in the first place.
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« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2008, 03:14:10 PM »
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But the 2690 monitor is not capable of 10 bit input from the graphics card even if the OS and applications support it.

Exactly. Its 8-bit in and 8-bit out. Having the higher bit is useful for altering the behavior of the device (so to speak) using a high bit LUT. But until we have a full high bit path, the issues of working with wider gamut displays on narrow gamut images is such that we find a far higher colorimetric difference in working with smaller gamut images.
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2008, 09:21:45 AM »
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> Regarding the calibrators for those wide-gamut displays, if using a colorimeter, I think I would prefer to use a bundled instrument -which might be 'tuned', rather than the stock Xrite model.

That's one approach. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these 'tuned' colorimeters are generally OEMed versions that include custom calibration/correction matrices.
EIZO (for their CG line AFAIK) and Quato include such custom calibration matrices for each supported (general purpose) measuring device in their software.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


One is tempted to just place the sensor on the monitor and run the software to calibrate the monitor in the default mode.  If you look deeper, there are a number of ways the calibration software can be set in addition to white balance, gamma, and brightness.

I read the NEC 2690 and Spectravision II manual pretty carefully and they advise when calibrating their wide gamut monitors to set the software to use "Factory Presets" for color calibration rather than have the sensor measure the color while calibrating.  Apparently it is not capable of reading all of the colors that the high gamut monitors produce.  So I guess it is just being used to measure the brightness values.  Maybe they should have marked that a bit more clearly on the sensor or monitor itself.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 09:24:26 AM by AlanG » Logged

Alan Goldstein
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« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2008, 10:55:57 AM »
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I read the NEC 2690 and Spectravision II manual pretty carefully and they advise when calibrating their wide gamut monitors to set the software to use "Factory Presets" for color calibration rather than have the sensor measure the color while calibrating.  Apparently it is not capable of reading all of the colors that the high gamut monitors produce.  So I guess it is just being used to measure the brightness values.  Maybe they should have marked that a bit more clearly on the sensor or monitor itself.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Depends on the sensor. For measuring the white, a Spectrophotometer is preferable, for measuring the dark areas, a colorimeter is preferable. You could if you wished, used BOTH (that's what I do). Measure white with Spectrophotometer, build a custom white point from that measurement and then calibrate from there with the colorimeter.
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Andrew Rodney
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