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Author Topic: Before I buy a Z3100...  (Read 12430 times)
neil snape
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« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2008, 12:52:35 PM »
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Tim

Thats some interesting information and helpful to those of us considering a new printer. I do have a question for you and others who have used the HP Z series and especially if you have had comparative experience with Epsons. Metermarism issues is this a noticeable problem with the HPs, either b&w mode or color?

Thanks

Rob
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I take it you're talking about colour constancy and grey balance failure. Otherwise do you mean illuminant metamerism between Epson and HP?
If it is colour constancy, the HP holds it's own with some quirks. The Gloss Enhancer has it's own bronzing but is not very distracting. The bronzing is not going to add any coloration in changing light sources.
Between Epson K3 and HP Vivera the illuminant metamerism goes in opposite directions. I find the Epson goes towards red magenta, whereas HP goes green cyan blue as the K temperature goes up if there is uv. At low temperatures both are fairly consistent , HP having a better look at say 2800 K . If you make profiles for these K values both adapt very well, and both are easily corrected.

Overall greyscale repro is harder to put into few words. Gloss Enhancer is an essential element for reducing shifts in constancy, so comparative tests have to be done with it on. On matte paper however where matte K is used the HP inks are more neutral than K3.

There is simply no one who can put a label on which is better or worse, simply different.
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Tim Anderson
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« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2008, 08:03:32 PM »
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I work with a couple of fellow engineers who are also photography enthusiasts so we have some lively comparisons at the office.  I used to feel like the fire hydrant as my initially gorgeous i9900 prints slowly turned orange in the ozone heavy Dallas air.....now with the Z3100 I feel much more like the dog than the hydrant!!!

I can't offer a scientific test regarding metamerism Epson vs HP as Neil Snape can, but I can offer this:  The ultrachrome inkset featured a carbon black that was not corrected to true black.  It is my understanding that uncorrected carbon black is in fact dark reddish brown.  In any case I am currently staring at an image created on a 2200 as I type this.  The image was printed using the "black ink only"driver setting and the deep red/brown tint is unmistakable under the high CRI compact fluorescents I use in my "printing lair".

This means that the ultrachrome inkset relied on composite colors to generate a true neutral black.  That opened up the door for metamerism to become a problem.  Anecdotally I can tell you that in typical office "daylight" fluorescent lighting I could pick out the ultrachrome from the K3 black and white prints 100 percent of the time.  Under the nasty office lighting the ultrachrome took on a green cast, responding no doubt to the mercury spectral peak.  Think daylight slide film shooting under the office fluorescent lighting and you know the color I speak of.

So the K3 was much better in this regard.  The HP apparently uses some type of correction in their ink because their blacks and grays are neutral without the use of composite inks.  That said, going from office lighting to natural daylight I do not see color shifts in black and whites from either K3 or HP vivera pigment.  The ultrachrome prints on the other hand had a fairly large green shift under office lighting.

The bronzing issue is about what one would expect:  The printer with gloss enhancer blows away the one without when using glossy media.  With satin or matte finishes it becomes less of an issue, and I would be happy with prints from either K3 or Vivera inksets on non-glossy media.
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routlaw
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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2008, 09:38:22 AM »
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I can't offer a scientific test regarding metamerism Epson vs HP as Neil Snape can, but I can offer this:  The ultrachrome inkset featured a carbon black that was not corrected to true black.  It is my understanding that uncorrected carbon black is in fact dark reddish brown.  In any case I am currently staring at an image created on a 2200 as I type this.  The image was printed using the "black ink only"driver setting and the deep red/brown tint is unmistakable under the high CRI compact fluorescents I use in my "printing lair".

The bronzing issue is about what one would expect:  The printer with gloss enhancer blows away the one without when using glossy media.  With satin or matte finishes it becomes less of an issue, and I would be happy with prints from either K3 or Vivera inksets on non-glossy media.
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Yes thats sounds exactly like my experiences with the UC inks, not a true black. Though I am not sure if this per se is what contributes the most to metamerism.

Its interesting in a recent conversation I had with Jon Cone of Piezography inks he claimed that true pigment inks will not shape shift in color regardless of light source, yet my very old EP 10K printer which used only pigment inks was notoriously bad at metamerism. He went on to say that the mix of dye inks and pigments inks is what causes this phenomenon, inks such as the UC inks used in the x600 printers. I also have a Canon Pixma Pro 9000 that uses 100% dye inks and its metamerism is every bit as bad as my 9600 but probably not as bad as my old 10K which never gets used any more.

Thanks to all of the answers regarding this issue for the HP printers, much appreciated!

Rob
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duraace
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« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2008, 05:36:54 PM »
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Buy the HP Z3100 ps GP that's what I bought! You get Post Script Fonts with EXTRA Letters ,BIG deal! But I bought the APS and a 3 year warra  nty with it too.I am on the first set of 69 ml inkset STILL ! And lost an OPPS sensor last week but HP tech support has been great to me so far, I'm in Northrn Calif. My Epson R2400 was EATING INK for lunch!
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You're comparing a consumer printer to something that ships on a pallet and need three people to position in place???
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BradSmith
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2008, 03:17:21 PM »
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You've been vocal on this board about how bad HP support is (contrary to most others' experience) and went as far as to NOT recomend the z3100 to someone who asked about it in another thread because of your experience. It's a shame that people pay more attention to negative comments than positive ones, because you may have steered someone away from what is arguably the best printer on the market.

It'll be interesting to see how vocal you'll be if you do resolve your problems.
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DLS,
I don't get your point.  Joel Murphy has a failed printer and has been jacked around MIGHTILY by HP service personnel on a repetitive, consistent basis....by his count, 15-20 calls to their service dept.  To get his $4,000 printer to function, he had to be smart enough to know of this site and be fortunate enough that someone remembered the email address and offer of the HP PRODUCT MANAGER for this product to help solve crappy service problems.  

Is your point that Murphy shouldn't be negative about his experience and the printer?  

We would all agree that this is an excellent printer. As long as it works.   We all agree that any electro/mechanical device can fail.   But there should be no excuse for the type of crappy service that he received.  His story SHOULD give people very serious pause in the purchase of this, or any other product with stories like his.
Brad
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LifeStoryImages
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« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2008, 01:52:34 PM »
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...His story SHOULD give people very serious pause in the purchase of this, or any other product with stories like his.
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Hello all!

  Bert here, a new Z3100 owner as of this week.  (Bought one "used" that still had half the original inks in place!)  No APS, but I'll wait to see if I "graduate" to that.

  Reading this thread gave me "very serious" confidence in HP's Z support.  The product manager personally resolving forum users' issues?  (and no doubt tracking down the reasons for the problems.)  Holy "customer satisfaction is our reputation", Batman!

   I look forward to joining in to the fun as I get up and running on my new machine!

     - Bert
       Laurel, MD
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