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Author Topic: Hy6 Users here?  (Read 46785 times)
amsp
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 12:55:29 PM »
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
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bryanyc
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 09:58:15 PM »
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Relatively "poor" fine art photographers interested in the highest quality for the buck might well consider film.  After all, medium and large format is all about quality no?  $30 grand ain't chump change.  And consider that in a year that 30 grand outfit is worth 20 grand.   Might pay to wait a year and shoot that old school stuff for awhile.  If you are not a high production commercial photographer or independently wealthy or in some lucrative other profession then economics would suggest shooting film.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2008, 02:36:50 AM »
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EPd,
Thanks for keeping us on track here. Do you know how long the wait list is for a Hy6 currently or how many months of production are already committed to standing orders?  

And perhaps you would also know if one were to buy a film camera and let's say hypothetically a 3rd party made an adapter that enabled a digital back to be fit, if that would break any laws or anything like that?

Thanks,
Eric



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Keep the facts straight, please. There are two crucial players in the Hy6 field: Jenoptik (NOT Sinar or Leaf), who owns the rights to sell licenses for the Hy6 and Franke & Heidecke, who makes the cameras (and is allowed to sell bodies with film backs under their own label). Jenoptik is to decide who can be on the Hy6 with a DB, although they may be bound by earlier contracts with the other participants.

Currently, if you want to use the Rolleiflex glass (Schneider and Zeiss) with a Phase One back the best choice is to buy a Rolleiflex 6008AF. That camera is still a very capable product, although not as light and comfortable as the Hy6. If you want to take the chance you might switch to the Hy6 later on, when Phase would be a participant on that platform too. All your precious glass will be fully compatible.

Jenoptik has not invested in F&H, just in the development of the Hy6. They have a contract with F&H dictating to buy a certain amount of Hy6/AFi bodies from them, together with a certain amount of lenses and accessories. Selling these will also generate some profit for Jenoptik. However, given the current waiting list for Hy6 cameras there is no urgent reason for Jenoptik yet to turn to Phase in order to get rid of their contractual pile of stuff. Paradoxically only not buying a Hy6 might help Phase coming to the platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2008, 02:47:41 AM »
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Relatively "poor" fine art photographers interested in the highest quality for the buck might well consider film. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184838\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Perhaps, but would they really spend thousands on a brand new 645/6x6 camera for film when there are so many decent film cameras out there already (e.g. Rollei 6008AF, Contax 645)? Large format cameras are much cheaper on the used market and are even better suited to fine art.
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2008, 04:32:16 AM »
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Keep the facts straight, please. There are two crucial players in the Hy6 field: Jenoptik (NOT Sinar or Leaf), who owns the rights to sell licenses for the Hy6 and Franke & Heidecke, who makes the cameras (and is allowed to sell bodies with film backs under their own label). Jenoptik is to decide who can be on the Hy6 with a DB, although they may be bound by earlier contracts with the other participants.

Currently, if you want to use the Rolleiflex glass (Schneider and Zeiss) with a Phase One back the best choice is to buy a Rolleiflex 6008AF. That camera is still a very capable product, although not as light and comfortable as the Hy6. If you want to take the chance you might switch to the Hy6 later on, when Phase would be a participant on that platform too. All your precious glass will be fully compatible.

Jenoptik has not invested in F&H, just in the development of the Hy6. They have a contract with F&H dictating to buy a certain amount of Hy6/AFi bodies from them, together with a certain amount of lenses and accessories. Selling these will also generate some profit for Jenoptik. However, given the current waiting list for Hy6 cameras there is no urgent reason for Jenoptik yet to turn to Phase in order to get rid of their contractual pile of stuff. Paradoxically only not buying a Hy6 might help Phase coming to the platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
Ask Thierry he would know. I know the agents here in Sydney for Sinar & Leaf. This debate has gone on long enough.

Denis
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2008, 05:08:23 AM »
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes they are! My friendly neighbourhood camera shop just delivered a new Hasselblad 503CW film version to a customer.
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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2008, 05:15:56 AM »
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hi Denis,

I won't intervene on this issue anymore: enough has been said, enough has been argued, and all facts have been communicated (by official press release) and are well known.

Just one remark to EPd's comment about Sinar not having its words to say concerning the Hy6 camera: Sinar AG is 100% owed by Jenoptik AG and is fully integrated in and part of the Jenotpik AG: everybody can throw his own consequences.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Hi
Ask Thierry he would know. I know the agents here in Sydney for Sinar & Leaf. This debate has gone on long enough.

Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184911\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2008, 10:48:18 AM »
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hi Denis,

I won't intervene on this issue anymore: enough has been said, enough has been argued, and all facts have been communicated (by official press release) and are well known.

Just one remark to EPd's comment about Sinar not having its words to say concerning the Hy6 camera: Sinar AG is 100% owed by Jenoptik AG and is fully integrated in and part of the Jenotpik AG: everybody can throw his own consequences.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184913\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I believe Theirry has some kind of Dick Tracy device hooked to his watch and everytime anyone in the world posts imformation about the HY6, he is on his computer to "clairify" the "truth" and then let us "throw our own consequences"?

Well, I'll throw out some consequences.

Medium format more than anything needs wider acceptence and more market penetration.

In fact medium format needs to get back a portion of the billion or so photographers that were forced to lay down their RZ's and Hasselblad V's and pick up a Canon 1ds mark 1, 2, 3, (and I'm sure 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, ....) because when the first Canon hit the shelf (and by the way it hit the shelfs in every store in the world, vs. the medium format model of "call your secret specialized digital dealer for information, regarding pricing, delivery and use".

Honestly this camera makes me smile, or laugh, or almost just shake my head in disbelief.

Here is a camera that is so close to being a world standard.  A combination of a V system, an RZ and hand held autofocus camera, but as of today you can't rotate the back without taking it off and I don't care if you work with a foam pillow under your feet, the idea of switching back and forth on location, under pressure is more than my heart can take.

Then of course there is all those beautiful lenses, but nothing wider than 40 which with even a 1.14 crop is pretty tight and then the price.

I know good glass is expensive, (see the cinema world or the Leica price list for comparision), but I also know if they could sell more of these cameras and more of these lenses, they could lower the price of all of it.  

That is just the basics of economy of scale.

I have never met a photographer than wanted less options and wanted to spend more money for equipment, but Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad are not doing us any favors by limiting the sale of anything.

Actualy medium format needs to get out of the labs and onto the street and see what we do with these cameras day in day out and more importantly find any way possible to widen their market.

Recently I added a P21+ and though at 18mp it seems like a downgrade from my previouis A-22 and my current P30+  I love this back.  It shoots at 800 iso, looks like film and cost's almost  1/3 of my original Aptus.

If this back had been availble for 10 grand the day the 1ds was announced, I am positive there would be a lot less Canon users on the street.

If the HY6 was available in all mounts and the lenses were less than the $4,999 price point I am also sure that a lot of people, inclduing myself would take a serious look at it.

Still, I'm not going anywhere near a proprietary expensive camera.  I've been down that road where one back manufacturer starts having software issues and I know how crippiling that can be to our workflow and available time and it's one thing to take a many thousand dollar loss on changing the capture device, but to also put a $25,000 camera system on the shelf because it just won't work with any back is something few of us want to contemplate.

And Theirry I'm not just picking on you so please don't get your "feelings" hurt, because it may be just the language barrier, but you seem to get your feelings hurt quite easily, though today you can walk into a store in New York and buy a brand new Rollei Hy6 and though you are positive it will never work on a Phase or Imacon back, there are a lot of people saying that will eventually happen.

And Theirry, you seem to want to imply that Sinar had influence into Jenoptik in limiting this camera to just two digital back makers, but if it was me, I would keep that thought out of the public domain.

Basically, the real truth about professional photography is the costs keep going up, but the fees and expenses we charge are not climbing in the same relationship.

Don't think for a minute than all of us dont long for the days of being able to use the camera and "film" of our choice, without thought or worry about if it will be compatible, or obsolete, or a manufacturer will just change their mind tomorrow and phase our camera out of existence (see Hasselblad).

Also don't think that if we invest in lenses and bodies, regardless of price point that we don't want to see them continue to be used well into the next decade.

So the manfacturers can play all the games they want, limit availability, promise upgrades in quarters, 2, 3, 4, and then miss their own self imposed deadlines by months (even years) but once again, don't think that this doesn't impact medium format sales.

You have to remember that most of us are independent business owners (undersocre the word independent) and don't take well to being told what we have to do and if most of us had our way, our back of choice would go on any camera with just a snap and a click.



JR
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thsinar
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2008, 11:54:23 AM »
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I believe Theirry has some kind of Dick Tracy device hooked to his watch and everytime anyone in the world posts imformation about the HY6, he is on his computer to "clairify" the "truth" and then let us "throw our own consequences"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No James, I don't have a device for this, just a month off and out of usual duties: so whenever my little daughter of 2 weeks let me some time, I'll spend it here on my computer, and checking/controlling what you (or others) are writing!

 

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Here is a camera that is so close to being a world standard.  A combination of a V system, an RZ and hand held autofocus camera, but as of today you can't rotate the back without taking it off and I don't care if you work with a foam pillow under your feet, the idea of switching back and forth on location, under pressure is more than my heart can take.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The revolving adapter is available.

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Actualy medium format needs to get out of the labs and onto the street and see what we do with these cameras day in day out and more importantly find any way possible to widen their market.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sure, I agree: that's also why I am here reading you. Don't think that I am only here to read/answer. I appreciate market feedbacks and it does not get lost.

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If the HY6 was available in all mounts and the lenses were less than the $4,999 price point I am also sure that a lot of people, inclduing myself would take a serious look at it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suppose you are mentioning the new AFD lenses: their recommended enduser price goes from Euro 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) to Euro 4'570.- (4.6/60-140 AFD).

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And Theirry I'm not just picking on you so please don't get your "feelings" hurt, because it may be just the language barrier, but you seem to get your feelings hurt quite easily,...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am much less hurt that one may believe: may be too much looking for the true information coming through and very concerned by it, yes.

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though today you can walk into a store in New York and buy a brand new Rollei Hy6 and though you are positive it will never work on a Phase or Imacon back, there are a lot of people saying that will eventually happen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That might well be. I've never said that it won't happen. I honestly don't know this and don't want to speculate on it. Fact is that it has been decided that Leaf and Sinar are on this project, together with F&H: I am just trying to inform how the situation is now, and cannot nor do I want to speculate what the future will be. I don't think you can find any information from Sinar or me saying that it won't happen.

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And Theirry, you seem to want to imply that Sinar had influence into Jenoptik in limiting this camera to just two digital back makers, but if it was me, I would keep that thought out of the public domain.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, I am not implying such, but simply presenting the Sinar company under a different eye, instead of suggesting each time that for that particular project Sinar had no clue  or nothing to do with it, nor any influence on what came out.

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Basically, the real truth about professional photography is the costs keep going up, but the fees and expenses we charge are not climbing in the same relationship.

Don't think for a minute than all of us dont long for the days of being able to use the camera and "film" of our choice, without thought or worry about if it will be compatible, or obsolete, or a manufacturer will just change their mind tomorrow and phase our camera out of existence (see Hasselblad).
 

Also don't think that if we invest in lenses and bodies, regardless of price point that we don't want to see them continue to be used well into the next decade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I understand this well, James, and I agree. I do believe that we keep this in mind and think about it very seriously each time.

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So the manfacturers can play all the games they want, limit availability, promise upgrades in quarters, 2, 3, 4, and then miss their own self imposed deadlines by months (even years) but once again, don't think that this doesn't impact medium format sales.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It does, obviously.

Quote
You have to remember that most of us are independent business owners (undersocre the word independent) and don't take well to being told what we have to do and if most of us had our way, our back of choice would go on any camera with just a snap and a click.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agreed, I would neither like to be told what to do. I understand your point.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2008, 12:15:23 PM »
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I would. Even though I prefer to work with film this doesn't mean I don't like to work with the most modern cameras. And when you want the full 6x6 square there isn't much else in this field than a Rolleiflex 6008AF or Hy6. And the Hy6 is the most portable of these two, so especially for travel work it might have the edge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


unless your fine art requires the fastest autofocus available in the largest film with autofocus possible (hy6) how would the newest camera improve over an older one?...v series for 66 square manual focus / contax 645 for 645 autofocus / 54 for best image quality...
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2008, 12:30:49 PM »
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes. And, to quote bryanyc, I consider myself  "a relatively poor fine art photographer interested in the highest quality for the buck" that cannot consider the adquisition of an outreageously expensive medium format digital back right now. So, I have two options, being option one to take the 1dsMkIII route and being option two to go after a medium format camera, Velvia 50 and drum scan (saving meanwhile some money for the DB). Another option for me could be waiting for the Leica R10 (I'm using the R9/DMR combo along with my Canon and Olympus gear) but, after reading the last interview with mister Kauffman, it's not clear what it's going to happen with the "new" (?) R system.

Then, and after considering what's out there in the medium format arena, the Rollei/Sinar Hy6 seems to be the right choice for me. I don't like the Hasselblad H system: too expensive, too closed, no square film or digital option (no film option at all with the H3DII), and although my first choice was the V system I quickly discarded it...  Of course I like the Zeiss glass and the 503CW is a beautiful camera, but: no AF, no built-in metering, and less than perfect integration with digital. In the long term the V system seems to be a dead end. The Mamiya could be the right value for the money option at this moment but what I've readed about the ZD back doesn't feel very inspiring (and, again, no square fim format) . In any case, the Mamiya/Phase One merging could offer some interesting alternative in the near future.

I'm just waiting for an answer about the final price of the Rollei/Sinar Hy6,  the Schneider Xenotar 80mm f/2.8 and the film back, from my local distributor here in Spain.

This is my first post here so, hi, everybody.

Carlos-
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2008, 12:48:31 PM »
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I suppose you are mentioning the new AFD lenses: their recommended enduser price goes from Euro 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) to Euro 4'570.- (4.6/60-140 AFD
Best regards,
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thierry,

 don't believe the 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) price is going to make your prospective users that happy - that's 4x of the Mamiya price, at least .


[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/182423-REG/Mamiya_210_604_80mm_f_2_8_LENS_for.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1824...8_LENS_for.html[/url]

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 12:52:50 PM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2008, 12:50:16 PM »
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Guillermo
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2008, 01:02:57 PM »
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Yes they are! My friendly neighbourhood camera shop just delivered a new Hasselblad 503CW film version to a customer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let's say if you have invested tens of thousand dollars in a high end digital system, the moment the digital back failed, the film is the least expensive back-up, especially in location.  Or, when you are running on the last battery, you can still use film for time-exposure and not to worry.  Film sales is clearly decreasing, but still sells to people who shot with it, and they are photographers too.  I guess we do not define photographer as people who shoot with digital. I did not use film for the last 2 years but I can never say I will not use it.
I adore the system for Hy6/Sinar, or for that matter, Hy6/Leaf is open, because when the back is independent from the back or vice versa, there is less chance to get wrong. At least I believe so, I also use H3D39 and in quite some occasions there is communication errors between camera and back and I need to remove the battery to reset the camera.  The closed or fully integrated system to me has a problem that the camera becomes a small computer, while for digital back that capture only raw, really we just need F stops, speed and aperture.
My own experience using the Hy6 and e75LV is that the camera is solid, well balance, AF is among the quickest I have ever use (H3D39, Contax and etc.) interface is straight forward, all the setting is easy to control, even for one wears glove shooting in sub-zero outdoor.  The fact that the back can rotate is to me a very valuable option, it is an option because the user can decide to use it or not. The camera is designed in a way that it is no less difficult to simply turn the hand/camera and shoot, or if needed, remove the back and turn it around, which I did often in studio, and a lot less often when it is outdoor.  I don't understand why there is debate on this, because it is just like AF confirmation beep on the camera that you can always turn off if you don't like it, but there are indeed people like the feature, I am not, but I am not bothered by those.  But I have no doubt if I ever get the rotating back, I will use as often as I can, and why not?  
I love the Hy6/Sinar combination for another very simple reason, it provides room to grow. And it still possessed the largest array of lenses for medium format today, with an option for AF with AF lenses, and full digital link to digital backs.  May be the day to see a larger than 36X48mm sensor is uncertain, I may be somewhat upset for not able to get the extra pixels, and the freedom of square format. And why not??  I think as photographer we need to look at the positive side that today there is such a system alive and performing well, we can buy it and use it, or at least we can appreciate it.
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2008, 01:06:32 PM »
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I'm just waiting for an answer about the final price of the Rollei/Sinar Hy6, the Schneider Xenotar 80mm f/2.8 and the film back, from my local distributor here in Spain.

This is my first post here so, hi, everybody.

Carlos-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Carlos,

No idea what kind of work you do (but you mention velvia 50 so pehaps it is not fast moving?) of course but if you're looking for a square 66 mf body with film back and 80mm lens you really can pick up a v series for about 500.
Now of course if af, etc is essential for your art work the it would need to be the hy6 or an older rollei 6000 camera (ask fotoz about them for advice) but remember that any film based used medium format camera you by today you'll be able to sell for the same in a year or so you do not have to wory too much about future investment, digital ready etc.

i'm not suer how much a new hy6 with film back and 80mm lens is but the difference between it and the used prices of the older alternatives add up to a lot of film, processing and scanning.

Many artists today, even those working with people and very successfull, use large format film (54 10x8 etc) so again depending on your requirements that could be an avenue to look at...see gregory crewdson, jeff wall, etc

Marc
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 01:08:26 PM by marcwilson » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2008, 01:07:13 PM »
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Thierry,

 don't believe the 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) price is going to make your prospective users that happy - that's 4x of the Mamiya price, at least .
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1824...8_LENS_for.html

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And a Leica Summilux-R 50 f/1.4 is 2.495 euros... Almost 600 euros more expensive than the Scheneider Xenotar 80 and, at least, eight times more expensive than a Canon EF 50 f/1.4... So, everything is relative, Edmund...
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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2008, 01:08:03 PM »
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Thierry,

 don't believe the 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) price is going to make your prospective users that happy - that's 4x of the Mamiya price, at least .
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1824...8_LENS_for.html

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Let me be clearer, Thierry,  Mamiya can sell a whole ZD look-alike for around Euro 5K. In the long term Sinar will have pricing problems.

Edmund
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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2008, 01:30:39 PM »
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And a Leica Summilux-R 50 f/1.4 is 2.495 euros... Almost 600 euros more expensive than the Scheneider Xenotar 80 and, at least, eight times more expensive than a Canon EF 50 f/1.4... So, everything is relative, Edmund...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thing is they don't have any low-price solution and when the digital back prices are going to fall those lens prices are going to start looking horrid. Canon has a mix of lenses, from 1x to 10x pricing  at the 50mm range for instance. I use the 50/1.8 regularly, it costs about $100 and it works fine.
I don' want to say that pricing is everything, but even Leica have a Summitar range which is affordable, and they are certanly not in the business of philantropy.

Edmund
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« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2008, 02:03:08 PM »
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Thing is they don't have any low-price solution and when the digital back prices are going to fall those lens prices are going to start looking horrid.
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Fortunately there are many good lenses for this system on the used market. I picked up my 80mm f2.8 PQS in perfect condition on ebay for $450. 50mm and 150mm lenses are also not expensive and not hard to find on the used market. You could probably pick up all 3 for $1500-2000 on the used market, and those 3 lenses can already take you a long way. All manual focus of course. I haven't looked at the prices of the used AF lenses.
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« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2008, 02:56:20 PM »
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Fortunately there are many good lenses for this system on the used market. I picked up my 80mm f2.8 PQS in perfect condition on ebay for $450. 50mm and 150mm lenses are also not expensive and not hard to find on the used market. You could probably pick up all 3 for $1500-2000 on the used market, and those 3 lenses can already take you a long way. All manual focus of course. I haven't looked at the prices of the used AF lenses.
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That's my plan - to buy used lenses and migrate to the Hy6 if and when it makes sense.  But I've tried to buy the best ones used that I could find and have paid higher amounts.  My 110mm f/2.0 was a demo for example but still close to half the new price.    Thierry has suggested that the AFD lenses are made to higher tolerances than the older lenses but if they all out resolve my back (as it appears they do) then will it really matter?
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