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Author Topic: Wide angle coverage with DMF  (Read 8272 times)
BJL
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« on: March 25, 2008, 10:33:42 AM »
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I would like to ask practicing medium format users how much wide angle coverage they want or need. For example the widest lens used or desired with 645 or 6x6 film cameras, and the widest lens used or desired for the current 36x48mm maximum of digital MF systems.

I ask partly because the of big gap between the 28mm minimum offered by both Hasselblad and Mamiya/Phase One for their DMF systems and the 40mm minimum for the Rollei-based Hy6 system. These focal lengths give maximum angular FOV comparable to what one gets in 35mm format with 19mm and 27mm respectively.


Note: I am not asking for speculation about future DMF sensor sizes, just about needs in relation to existing or at least announced equipment options.
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rsmphoto
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 12:24:08 PM »
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For me, as an architecture shooter, both the 28 and the 35 have proved essential to my H3D-39 kit. The 35 is used more than the 28, but there are those few times when only the 28 will do, and it's great to have it when it's the best solution for the shot.
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 01:33:27 PM »
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Cambo-CamboWide-DS-Dig...1742.m153.l1262

I saw this CamboWide DS Digital 28mm HR Lens sold for $ 3k .. then there is this interesting model of a very compact Cambo for less than $2k. That meas that you can buy a 28mm and body for about the same as a Mamiya 28mm.

http://www.vistek.ca/store/ProPhotoLargeFo...-h-adapter.aspx

A 28mm "view camera" lens seams to out perform a retro focus, reflex equivalent lens.

We are talking no Perspective Correction. Same as with the Hasselblad ...

If you need a 28mm on the same system mount then, I would go with the Mamiya that may be the best in its class.

Systems that have 6x6 format and use 6x4.5-sensor backs will have trouble formulating a lens that would have such extended image circle and at the same time extend so far away from the film plane, (but I may be wrong). The fact is that plans to ever make a 28mm have yet to be announced from any maker for all the 6x6 systems.

I think that there is a need for architecture photography solutions to mount on digital backs, and as the market gets saturated, big revolutionary products more scarce, manufacturers will concentrate in adapting away from film and to digital...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 01:34:31 PM by Leonardo Barreto » Logged

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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 02:20:28 PM »
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I always say I need to be able to beat Bob

Bob maybe at a wedding or may be a graphic deisgner on a job or whatever

Bob has a 18-200 on a 40D or whatever

You cant get in a situation where Bob can 'get it all in' and you cant

------

Well thats if you are a jobbing pro photographer the sort of people who used to shoot weddings and corporate on 66 or 645 and buy thousands of MF cameras

Therefore that puts the Hy6 in a different area

Poeple who shoot portraits and love the rotation

People who shoot thier wide images slow and expensive enough to go for a view system

And thats not many people

Personally I get along just fine on my H1 with the 50 - a nice perscpective lens - but I need that confidence on shoots (medium pay hotels etc) to know that I have that 35 in the car - or preferably a 28

My clients wouldn pay for the view camera time BTW to pressured

THis is a shame becuase for me it cripples the Hy6 system and makes it a non starter until I win the lottery (I dont play) and can afford two MF systems

I find it bizarre that the folks who were sitting around the design table at the time dindt juast chuck the HY6 design in the bin

Probably cos they were given the brief of putting a new sexy body around the 6008 chassis on a budget

As far as I can see the only soution for the Hy6 is to lock up the mirror and put in a wide like the old 8fisheye on nikon needed mirror lock

They would of course need a great finder to go with it

That finder could of course not offer focus becsu focus is driven through the mirror rathere than read off the chip like in nikon live view

I coud rant on for ever about this and have done before too....

I just thought of another sinar saving idea - they could make a tripod mount device that rotaded the body exactly around the node of the 40mm with correct indents for stitching

Capture shop software could then have a 'perfect stitch' faciity built into is to export the files as large  panos with suitable corrections applied

SMM
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 02:58:57 PM »
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I always say I need to be able to beat Bob

Bob maybe at a wedding or may be a graphic deisgner on a job or whatever

Bob has a 18-200 on a 40D or whatever

You cant get in a situation where Bob can 'get it all in' and you cant

Brilliant! You've got it exactly.
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 05:16:06 PM »
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Bob has a 18-200 on a 40D or whatever
You cant get in a situation where Bob can 'get it all in' and you cant


The cheapest solution,then,is to befriend Bob and load him up with free booze and
when he's sufficiently hammered take his Flash Card (he'll only have one) and erase it.

Bob loves to be the life of the party so take advantage where he's vulnerable  :>))


Mark
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 05:36:48 PM »
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The solution is simple: do what Hassleblad did in times of film and make a lens with a body and a view finder. With a non retro focus 28mm that would accept HY6 backs. Sell the body-lens for less than a Mamiya or Hasselblad 28, -- something possible since they don't have to develop the formula for the lens, just use a Sinar digital--

28mm is so important that Hasselblad is marketing theirs as the "killer application" for the H3 closed  architecture system and as punishment for H1 owners not adopting it.

Mamiya dealers are including the AFD Mk3 + the normal and the 28mm as reward for customers of high end model backs.



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The cheapest solution,then,is to befriend Bob and load him up with free booze and
when he's sufficiently hammered take his Flash Card (he'll only have one) and erase it.

Bob loves to be the life of the party so take advantage where he's vulnerable  :>))
Mark
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BJL
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2008, 11:44:54 AM »
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Thanks for the replies.

The consensus seems to be that the Hy6 system would benefit significantly from at least one new lens wider than 40mm; maybe 35mm would do, but since all the competition offers 28mm, it might as well be 28mm too.
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 12:36:45 PM »
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Thanks for the replies.

The consensus seems to be that the Hy6 system would benefit significantly from at least one new lens wider than 40mm; maybe 35mm would do, but since all the competition offers 28mm, it might as well be 28mm too.
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completely...you may only ever use a 28mm on a few shoots a year and perhaps even a 35mm over the 40mm on half of them...but if you need them you need them...so to shoot without  them being there, even if it is just in case...is asking for trouble.

The ideal is the mf dslr system  with 28mm AND, as opposed to instead of, a shift camera with wide lenses, for shots requiring movements, using the same back but yes this 2 system set up is not only expensive, but more importantly there may well be jobs when the shift camera can't be used on time grounds, etc so your main kit needs to be up to the job.

Marc
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2008, 02:13:27 PM »
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Thanks for the replies.

The consensus seems to be that the Hy6 system would benefit significantly from at least one new lens wider than 40mm; maybe 35mm would do, but since all the competition offers 28mm, it might as well be 28mm too.
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Remeber those who havent replied arent interested - ie havnt got a beef about it - say fashion or portrait shooters

it the 'general practice' photographers who do architecture one day corporate the next that it is a big no no for - kindof top of mid price guys - doing quality on rasonable budgets work but not 'high end' where you just buy two systems

Of course artists can use whatever they want  - holga up

I would say the 40 is a nice lens with a pleasant perspective

In terms of a 28 on this camera - unlikely for a loooong time - the catflap mirror gets in the way

its also the catflap mirror that provides the coolest atributes of the camera - comfortable uprights

SMM
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Mike W
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2008, 06:53:04 AM »
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I concider 24mm a minimum in 35mm digital. So a 35mm on the Hy6 would be an absolute must for this system (24mm eq. with 1.1x crop).

But as stated, they almost need a 28mm just to keep up in this marketing war.
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 09:03:05 AM »
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One relatively easy -technically- solution wold be to make a shift adapter for the back of the camera.

Normaly PC systems go on the lens part, but the best way to shift is to live the camera on the same position and move the film/sensor plane up-down (or right-left) this makes stitching work more simple.

The Hy6 has lenses with a wide image circle that is sitting there doing nothing -- unless you shoot film, remember? the chemical process -- so the shift would take advantage of, say a 35mm that could become a 28mm with a 2 shot simple procedure, or a nice PC 35mm.

If they make a rotating adapter it meas that there is space -maybe- for a sliding adapter.

I wonder if they have something like this for the RB or RZ so I could mount my 645 AFD on one.

But going back to the lack of a 28mm for the Hy6. When you buy a luxury car -I love car analogies-, like a Porsche Cayman, you are not thinking on going 200km/h all the time, but you know that the car can take you there if you want, same with a USV, how many times you need to use 4x4? This systems are the equivalent to porches and Ferraries. The are made for people that not only work with them but they do so at the top of their field, may it be fashion, landscape architectural or commercial. "Formula 1", level. For most (not me) money is not even a factor.

In this context is where I see a problem with the system not having an available 28mm. It means that all the money in the world could not buy or rent such run-of-the-mill lens for this mount.




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I concider 24mm a minimum in 35mm digital. So a 35mm on the Hy6 would be an absolute must for this system (24mm eq. with 1.1x crop).

But as stated, they almost need a 28mm just to keep up in this marketing war.
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BJNY
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 09:15:03 AM »
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SMM came up with the idea of a sliding/stitching plate months ago.  Kapture Group actually manufactures one for the FujiGX680 cameras.

There are two sets of contacts for communication between the Hy6/AFi camera body and digital back for when the digital back is either in the vertical or horizontal position.  I don't know how they'll keep the communication going if a plate shifts laterally or rise/fall.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2008, 11:25:38 AM »
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The RZ has a PC Tilt/shift lens adapter and there are connectors that go from the body to the lens. They must have a small wire going...



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SMM came up with the idea of a sliding/stitching plate months ago.  Kapture Group actually manufactures one for the FujiGX680 cameras.

There are two sets of contacts for communication between the Hy6/AFi camera body and digital back for when the digital back is either in the vertical or horizontal position.  I don't know how they'll keep the communication going if a plate shifts laterally or rise/fall.
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2008, 03:51:29 PM »
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The RZ has a PC Tilt/shift lens adapter and there are connectors that go from the body to the lens. They must have a small wire going...
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As part of my suggestion for a shifting back I suggested an $8 Infra red device to fire the back off - who needs meta data (at the moment)  - my sinarback works fine with my sinarP2 an H1 that communicate only when to fire

edit
or a curly cable !

Thinking about this it would give ris/fall but not a wider anlge of view

Also it would give the camera a very strong USP on all lenses

S
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2008, 06:19:47 PM »
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Is there some reason that the number 28 seems to be the got to have number?  Minimum number for clearance in most cases?  Why is everybody trying to make a 28?  Why not a 27 or 29 or 30?
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BJNY
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2008, 06:24:21 PM »
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EPd,
Any idea how this upcoming 35mm Flektogon will perform compared to a Digitar,
especially on an Alpa with movements?

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The 35mm lens for the Hy6 is in the works and would already have come out if they hadn't had some setbacks with the prototype. But it is certain that at one point it wll be available. Shall we say Photokina this year?
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Guillermo
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2008, 08:20:58 AM »
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And this is exactly the problem, for the Hy6, the making of a 35mm is as "ambitious" as for the H and the AFD systems to formulate a 28mm.

So, if we extrapolate, making a 28mm on AFi/Hy6 is .... MI (Mission Impossible)

And they want to get "the highest possible focus in the corners of a 6x6 frame" for what? just for the few and fewer photographers that buy this system for film? (if you use film, why are you not shooting 4x5?) since the 100% of available backs don't go as far as the corners of a 6x6 square.

Either it makes no sense or I'm missing something.

Why not produce a "DX" 28mm? and then you can hold your breath and wait for the 6 size FF sensors.

This way the entire left flank of the combine armies of the AF1/Hy6 has been left open to enemy incursions.


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It's a floating element design, so optimized to give maximum performance at every focusing distance. The idea was to design a lens that has the highest possible focus into the very corners of a 6x6 frame. So whenever you use it on a camera with shift movement with a smaller sensor than 6x6 it will perform fine, probably. That is: when F&H manages to get the elements as they want them. A 35mm 3.5 lens with an image circle large enough to cover the 6x6 frame is a very ambitious undertaking (much more than a 28mm covering 6x4,5), especially since F&H wants to make it work for high resolution digital backs as well.
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2008, 07:55:00 PM »
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EPd, I agree with you that this is a new system and as such it is work in progress, also I understand that the designers committed the camera to a hybrid of film and digital. That is clear in the H that stands for tha, Hybrid. Is it a good way to go? that is another question.

When 6x6 sensors come it doesn't mean that the 6x45 format will all move to the new format, for that part of the system the image circle problem will not change at all.

In the film era rolls of 120 film where used for different format sizes, from 6 x12 to 6x4.5 but the film was the same. No camera would think of making a 6.5 x 6.5 format since film makers would have to make and market a special film size for the format. In digital terms this is what a larger, square format would mean for Kodak or Dalsa to make. The advantages would basically be to justify the design choice of the Hy6/AFi, and the costs... priceless. Or in other words, a very large "hole" to be filled by Kodak or any other sensor maker.

What I meant about using 4x5 is for someone that wants to get the best result in wide angle film photography would probably use a view camera with a non retro focus lens instead of a 6x6 reflex. The IQ is better and the larger size would give you much more detail. And a 4x5 lens may even be lighter than a Hy6/AFi system for hiking.


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Leonardo,

If F&H would make a 28mm for the Hy6 they probably would choose a reduced image circle. As a matter of fact the longer back focus would be very beneficial to keep color fringing due to CCD pixeldepth-effects under control. However, F&H strongly believe in supporting film photographers as well and also they expect the size of the sensors to grow in the near future, so they prefer to go wide with full frame image circles, which makes me very, very happy. Hy6 is a platform in development and with time the "holes" will all be filled, I am sure.

If you can't think of a good reason to use 6x6 film instead of 4x5" you must indeed be missing something.

EPd
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2008, 10:59:01 PM »
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EPd, you have convinced me, -- or maybe it is 11:52pm and time to got to bed?-- anyway, you make a good case for the larger sensor, and the Schneider and Zeiss lenses ... unless we see one of this labels on a Mamiya/Phase One 645 mount with computer chip and fast AF... formulated for digital ... but I was almost banned from Phase official forum when I asked in capital letters the name of the "mystery European lens maker" announced to contribute with the leaf and other lenses to the mount.... so, to bed it is and no more speculating at the 11th hour for me...

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Larger sensor with only slightly more pixels = larger pixels = higher ISO @ lower noise... And remember Dalsa is already prepared to deliver 48x48mm sensors now at a price level the smaller ones sold for until recently. This has nothing to do with justifying the design choice of the Hy6 as that market is too small at this moment to exclusively design a 48x48mm sensor for. But there is that huge pile of already existing 6x6 systems with all those great lenses that need a good home. Going to smaller image circles would be something like going the Nikon route: first buy into 35mm equipment for years (film era), than drop everything to go APS-C sensor and now buy back again into true full frame 35mm. That will be extremely costly if you want to do this with MF gear. To me the Hy6 choice makes perfect sense, although for those photogs living in the fast lane it might not be the best solution at this very moment. For those the Hasselblad route (and to a certain degree the Mamiya/PhaseOne route) might look more attractive now, but if the larger sensors arrive it will be a dead end. Nobody knows for sure what the future will hold, but I'll put my money in a camera that can use the Schneider and Zeiss lenses from Rollei that I have developed a love for. That's my personal bet. And I may be wrong of course.
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