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Author Topic: Wide angle coverage with DMF  (Read 8579 times)
Kumar
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2008, 01:36:00 AM »
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Remember that Sinar had an exclusive (2 year?) deal with Kodak for the first 22MP sensor. That they didn't capitalize on that lead is a different story. But the development of a new 6x6 system for possibly larger sensors could indicate that there's a deal somewhere. Maybe Dalsa has a similar deal with RoundShot for their new scanback? Anyone know?

Cheers,
Kumar
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thsinar
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2008, 01:41:29 AM »
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1 year.

Thierry

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Remember that Sinar had an exclusive (2 year?) deal with Kodak for the first 22MP sensor. That they didn't capitalize on that lead is a different story. But the development of a new 6x6 system for possibly larger sensors could indicate that there's a deal somewhere. Maybe Dalsa has a similar deal with RoundShot for their new scanback? Anyone know?

Cheers,
Kumar
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Thierry Hagenauer
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James R Russell
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2008, 02:19:02 AM »
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Larger sensor with only slightly more pixels = larger pixels = higher ISO @ lower noise... And remember Dalsa is already prepared to deliver 48x48mm sensors now at a price level the smaller ones sold for until recently. This has nothing to do with justifying the design choice of the Hy6 as that market is too small at this moment to exclusively design a 48x48mm sensor for. But there is that huge pile of already existing 6x6 systems with all those great lenses that need a good home. Going to smaller image circles would be something like going the Nikon route: first buy into 35mm equipment for years (film era), than drop everything to go APS-C sensor and now buy back again into true full frame 35mm. That will be extremely costly if you want to do this with MF gear. To me the Hy6 choice makes perfect sense, although for those photogs living in the fast lane it might not be the best solution at this very moment. For those the Hasselblad route (and to a certain degree the Mamiya/PhaseOne route) might look more attractive now, but if the larger sensors arrive it will be a dead end. Nobody knows for sure what the future will hold, but I'll put my money in a camera that can use the Schneider and Zeiss lenses from Rollei that I have developed a love for. That's my personal bet. And I may be wrong of course.
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There is a lot I don't understand about this.

First why is it that the larger pixels of (almost) all 645 sensors have not equated to higher iso.

Nearly all of them are larger than the Canon 1ds3 and few can get close in higher iso to the Canon, so will moving to a 6x6 sensor really give higher iso?

The next is price.  Don't get me wrong this camera has a lot of good things going for it, but now, with a few lenses, a back,  a body and a prism, your over $50,000.  What will a larger sensor add, another $5,000, $10,000?

I'm fortunate, I stay busy and can buy a new camera if I so wish, but the idea of a wholesale change to one single $60,000 camera that is one back, one body and 4 or 5 lenses boggles my mind and takes this system into cinema film territory.

Who is this camera specifically marketed to, because I shoot a lot of varied work, stay busy and I still can't rationalize the price?

As far as the Schneider and Rollei lenses, well those have been out for the 6000 series for a long time and I only know one "busy" photographer that used that camera.  I know of no rental house that had a supply and even to this day, it's not like you can find these things widely available.

As far as square, I'm very mixed on this.  Maybe, just maybe I can see it for a few applications, but as of today more of my work is going horizontal rather than vertical and I still haven't had a request for a pure square frame in a long time.

Still, as with everything in medium format, most of this is on the to come list and the HY6 is not alone in this.

One thing I do know that if the larger sensors come out and they are just the same iso with another 10mega pixels, we are getting way past what any client I work with asks for, in fact I downsize more images than I actually uprez.

JR
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2008, 07:29:45 AM »
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I see that the discussion went on way after midnight when I went to bed, like you James that posted at 2 in the morning... I bet I am the only one back at the post at 8 AM...

...."with everything in medium format, most of this is on the to come list and the HY6 is not alone in this."...

Compared to film time we live in fast changing times, for example, Hasselblads changed little for year and when you got one you were "set for life" not expected to upgrade it in 3 years. Now we have some companies that die like Bronica, Contax, Fuji 68, Hasselblad changed their format from 6x6 to 6x4.5 -- and disowned their legacy lens line, unbelievable back then --.

In this context, and after the H3D closed the architecture the other players scrambled their air force as fast as possible. And now, in no time we have a Leaf camera, a Sinar camera, a Phase one camera. Amazing.

The new systems are beach heads that had to be taken in time and form, so the Hy6 went with the  available excellent lens base and modernized what is basically old film camera. (Phase did even less ... for now)

Now all the players have to begin to take continental territory and test their choices on a difficult battle theater.

I think that Sinar could do more to integrate the old view camera modular system in to the digital era with smaller more practical products before others do.

I have to go make me a Grande Late...
 
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There is a lot I don't understand about this.

First why is it that the larger pixels of (almost) all 645 sensors have not equated to higher iso.

Nearly all of them are larger than the Canon 1ds3 and few can get close in higher iso to the Canon, so will moving to a 6x6 sensor really give higher iso?

The next is price.  Don't get me wrong this camera has a lot of good things going for it, but now, with a few lenses, a back,  a body and a prism, your over $50,000.  What will a larger sensor add, another $5,000, $10,000?

I'm fortunate, I stay busy and can buy a new camera if I so wish, but the idea of a wholesale change to one single $60,000 camera that is one back, one body and 4 or 5 lenses boggles my mind and takes this system into cinema film territory.

Who is this camera specifically marketed to, because I shoot a lot of varied work, stay busy and I still can't rationalize the price?

As far as the Schneider and Rollei lenses, well those have been out for the 6000 series for a long time and I only know one "busy" photographer that used that camera.  I know of no rental house that had a supply and even to this day, it's not like you can find these things widely available.

As far as square, I'm very mixed on this.  Maybe, just maybe I can see it for a few applications, but as of today more of my work is going horizontal rather than vertical and I still haven't had a request for a pure square frame in a long time.

Still, as with everything in medium format, most of this is on the to come list and the HY6 is not alone in this.

One thing I do know that if the larger sensors come out and they are just the same iso with another 10mega pixels, we are getting way past what any client I work with asks for, in fact I downsize more images than I actually uprez.

JR
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2008, 02:47:00 PM »
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A larger sensor is per se more expensive. They are getting less expensive, but if you compare two similar sensors at one particular time, the larger one should be more expensive than the smaller one. That is the reason why FF Canons cost more than "DX" canons.

If you compare prices of European to Japanese products you can see how they (in Japan) can produce a product of similar quality more efficiently so that it could be sold for less to the consumer.

The square format was displaced in the film era by either 6x4.5 or 6x7 since most of the time the images where cropped to the smaller size. Now Hasselblad has almost abandoned it altogether. I personally like the square format, but when you spend $60,000 on a system you just don't base the decision on something you may use some times but you want the most general purpose tool possible and one that is no only cost effective but efficient and a rectangular format fits better those criteria. If not make a pol in the forum.

Just ask the question: If you could only have one format which one would it be? square or rectangular....




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James, a few short answers:

- Read up on the subject of CCD vs CMOS.

- In Germany, the world's 3rd economy, you'll find a lot more busy pros using Rollei 6000 lenses than elsewhere in the world.

- Larger sensors will not have to be more expensive per se. That's the law of technological progression.

- The US dollar is currently at an all time low, compared to the euro. That doesn't help to get attractive pricing in dollar economies when you want to buy European high-end products. But you can hardly blame the companies who make those products, don't you think?

- Many of my clients love square images, because they can crop verticals and horizontals in edit. And I love the square as a form factor in itself for my personal work. Square is also a good shape to discern yourself in a mainly horizontal world. Finding your USP's is extremely important in our trade, but you are obviously well aware of that.
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snickgrr
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2008, 05:56:07 PM »
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$3000.00 will buy this CNC three in one milling machine and you're off to the races
http://www.shopmasterusa.com/

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Re: Square/rectangular/larger sensors

Would somebody please make one of these already??!!  It's not that complicated - in fact, somebody fund me, and I'll make it!
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2008, 07:43:13 PM »
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BBPhoto, I cannot fund you, but I would buy one from you.

How did you do the model? with Google sketch? nice, no?

I think that Sinar could - should do it since the Hy6 has unused image circles in all its lenses...

PS I am sure that Sinar has a ShopMaster or equivalent... they are swiss !
 

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Re: Square/rectangular/larger sensors

Would somebody please make one of these already??!!  It's not that complicated - in fact, somebody fund me, and I'll make it!
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