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Author Topic: RAW Revolution - Aperture 2.1  (Read 24349 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« on: March 28, 2008, 10:15:53 AM »
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"Released today, Aperture 2.1 introduces an open plug-in architecture that lets photographers use specialized third-party imaging software from right within Aperture. In fact, customers downloading the Aperture 2.1 update will receive the new Dodge & Burn plug-in. Developed by Apple, it adds brush-based tools for dodge (lighten), burn (darken), contrast, saturation, sharpen and blur. Aperture 2 customers can download the free Aperture 2.1 Update by visiting the Aperture download site"
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francois
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 10:29:10 AM »
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I've seen the press release. This is interesting and will certainly push Lightrrom team to offer plug-in support in a not too distant future.

Edit: First look article on Rob Galbraith website (here)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 11:16:55 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 11:58:37 AM »
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"Released today, Aperture 2.1 introduces an open plug-in architecture that lets photographers use specialized third-party imaging software from right within Aperture. In fact, customers downloading the Aperture 2.1 update will receive the new Dodge & Burn plug-in. Developed by Apple, it adds brush-based tools for dodge (lighten), burn (darken), contrast, saturation, sharpen and blur. Aperture 2 customers can download the free Aperture 2.1 Update by visiting the Aperture download site"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184972\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Note, this plug-in is generating a TIFF file.
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francois
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 12:03:55 PM »
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Note, this plug-in is generating a TIFF file.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184999\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's what I just read  
In fact, it's not so much different than Lightroom Edit in External Application command.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 12:05:19 PM by francois » Logged

Francois
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 12:13:39 PM »
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That's what I just read 
In fact, it's not so much different than Lightroom Edit in External Application command.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Right.  But it seems, in reading Rob Galbraith's article, that it's a limitation of this plug-in, not a limitation of plug-ins in general.  Plug-ins *can* ask for the RAW data instead of a TIFF.

I really don't know enough about which types of editors can take RAW data and which require actual pixels (as they do pixel editing functions).
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 01:00:18 PM »
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That's what I just read 
In fact, it's not so much different than Lightroom Edit in External Application command.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
However, there is still an advantage: you might not need an external application at all for most of your workflow. Btw, I am not exactly an Aperture fan: I used to have Aperture 1.5, but sold it as being inferior (IMHO) to ACR.
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 01:02:05 PM »
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At least on my Canon raws, I'm finding the quality of the demosaic / raw conversion in Aperture 2 superior to that of ACR.

Graeme
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 02:01:07 PM »
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However, there is still an advantage: you might not need an external application at all for most of your workflow. Btw, I am not exactly an Aperture fan: I used to have Aperture 1.5, but sold it as being inferior (IMHO) to ACR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i was devoted to LR until aperture 2.0 came out....aperture 1.5 just wasn't there, the conversions, the functions,....all that changed with 2.0....and this update proves that apple is VERY serious about aperture....the conversions are better then LR/ACR, the color is (IMO) and the functions are beginning to pull way ahead of LR....i don't see how adobe can even catch up with apple at this point...and the rushed/pulled 1.4.1 update does not make things any better...

i really recommend checking aperture 2.0 out....
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 05:52:42 AM »
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Is photoshop the first pluginn for aperture?
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BJNY
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2008, 09:45:44 AM »
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It would be great if Nik's Viveza will work on the RAW data.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2008, 04:25:12 PM »
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Aperture is becoming more and more attractive, but I can't believe that they still haven't fixed it's inability to read IPTC from XMP sidecars, and when it does grab IPTC embedded in DNGs, it ignores certain useful fields (Location, Location, Location!).  I wonder what Apple was thinking with such a glaring omission in XMP/IPTC support; certainly they must want to target people who already have some filing system set up in addition to those who are new to the world of DAM.  Anyway, the plugin system looks great, especially the ability to pass RAW data to plugins, which should be excellent for things like DxO.
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NikosR
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 03:30:06 AM »
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It would be great if Nik's Viveza will work on the RAW data.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't believe that Nik's U-point technology works on RAW data in the Nikon Capture NX implementation either (but I would like to be shown that I'm wrong).
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francois
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 10:13:45 AM »
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However, there is still an advantage: you might not need an external application at all for most of your workflow. Btw, I am not exactly an Aperture fan: I used to have Aperture 1.5, but sold it as being inferior (IMHO) to ACR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I fully agree with your point but I would have prefered to avoid the TIFF file generation.
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Francois
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2008, 10:25:50 AM »
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...and more important, there is now a flip tool!
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BJNY
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2008, 12:42:27 PM »
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I asked a friend who uses the Nikon D3, and he replied NX does work on NEF.

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I don't believe that Nik's U-point technology works on RAW data in the Nikon Capture NX implementation either (but I would like to be shown that I'm wrong).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 12:42:46 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2008, 01:03:27 PM »
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I asked a friend who uses the Nikon D3, and he replied NX does work on NEF.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes of course. NX is a Nikon raw converter so it should! But not all NX functions work on pre-demosaiced (raw) data.

At least this is my understanding. Which is true, I believe, for most modern raw converters which tend to offer more and more goodies on top of the basic converter function. For most of them it is not clear (and certainly not properly documented) which functions operate on raw and which on demosaiced data.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 01:06:39 PM by NikosR » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2008, 04:28:58 PM »
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Yes of course. NX is a Nikon raw converter so it should! But not all NX functions work on pre-demosaiced (raw) data.

At least this is my understanding. Which is true, I believe, for most modern raw converters which tend to offer more and more goodies on top of the basic converter function. For most of them it is not clear (and certainly not properly documented) which functions operate on raw and which on demosaiced data.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Given that with NX the default is always to save as NEF, even after having made every possible adjustment, I'm pretty sure that NX works entirely on RAW data.
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NikosR
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2008, 11:45:54 PM »
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Given that with NX the default is always to save as NEF, even after having made every possible adjustment, I'm pretty sure that NX works entirely on RAW data.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would not be so sure about it. Remember, NX saves in the NEF file all operations as metadata - actions to be interpreted by NX itself the next time you open the file (similarly to what other so called 'metadata' converters - editors do). No NX modifications are visible if the NEF is opened by another NEF aware program (e.g. ACR etc).

Additionally, NEF is a very flexible format (much like DNG is). You can save de-linearised and de-mosaiced data (RGB) in a NEF file. In fact in NX you can open and 'modify' a jpg/TIFF file and then save it in NEF. That, of course, does not mean that the data is 'de-converted' to raw when saved in the NEF file. Do not confuse the file format with the nature of the data it contains.

So, the fact that NX saves as NEF does not tell us anything about the space NX operations are performed in. I'm pretty sure that all but some of the base adjustments are done on de-mosaiced data. I speculate that all adjustments which are supported for both NEF and jpeg / TIFF files are the same and operate on 'converted' data.

It is my speculation only but I think it is reasonable to believe that Nik Software took the Nikon converter engine and build their own RGB metadata editor on top of it to produce Capture NX. It would be easy for them to take another generic converter engine and do exactly the same producing a camera-independent NX product if their agreement with Nikon allows it.

Coming back to Aperture, the fact that a functionality is built-in in Aperture (or any other metadata converter / editor) does not mean that the function is necessarily performed on raw data. In this sense, it may not be different than performing the operation on an external 'destructive RGB pixel-editor' (like PS) as long as the bit depth and colour space is maintained. Of course, integrating the functionality provides all the workflow convenience of 'non-destructive editing' metadata editors are good for.

Unless companies document their products properly there is no straightforward way for a user to tell which operations take advantage of the raw data and which operate on RGB. It is true that in many cases this distinction may not matter much in terms of output results, but there are some (e.g. noise processing) where it seems it does.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 07:12:49 AM by NikosR » Logged

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Mort54
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2008, 05:04:47 PM »
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I don't believe that Nik's U-point technology works on RAW data in the Nikon Capture NX implementation either (but I would like to be shown that I'm wrong).
The U-point targeted adjustments DO work on NEFs. That's the whole point of NX. It's a RAW converter, and U-point is one of the adjustments that can be made as part of the RAW conversion. As with all NX adjustments, U-point is non-destructive - it's stored as a set of tags with the NEF.

I personally detest NX, but U-point is its main (only) redeeming feature.

PS - between U-point coming to Aperture, and Apple's own dodge/burn plugin (which does so much more than simple luminosity dodge and burn), I'm almost tempted to give Aperture another try. For a long time it was my main app, but it was slow, so once Lightroom matured sufficiently, I moved to it and haven't looked back (tho I much prefer the Aperture UI). I hear Aperture 2's RAW converter is also better than ACR now, which is another reason to at least take a second look.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 05:11:22 PM by Mort54 » Logged

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NikosR
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2008, 10:38:56 PM »
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The U-point targeted adjustments DO work on NEFs. That's the whole point of NX. It's a RAW converter, and U-point is one of the adjustments that can be made as part of the RAW conversion. As with all NX adjustments, U-point is non-destructive - it's stored as a set of tags with the NEF.

Well, I suppose you do have a problem reading and comprehending what I wrote, haven't you? Did I ever say NX and U-points don't work on NEF? Or that they are done in a destructive way? Does this necessarily imply that U-points work on raw (as in un-demosaiced and not-linearized data?). I wrote a large post just above yours to try to explain why 'working on NEF' does not tell us anything about the space an operations takes place in. Give me a break.

Are you suggesting that they do work on raw data? Can you give us any hints as to why you think so?

You work with Lightroom which is (amongst other things) a raw converter also. Are you suggesting that ALL LR functions take place before de-mosaicing? Curves also? Why? Just because LR works on raw files and is a raw converter? And what does 'working with tags' have to do with whether a function operates on raw or not? What's stopping a raw converter converting the data internally and then applying additional operations in the RGB space? Only their designers know precisely what happens inside.  We can just speculate.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 10:51:54 PM by NikosR » Logged

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