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Author Topic: Red as of 2007  (Read 182240 times)
Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2008, 12:52:27 AM »
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It's so hard to answer the ISO question, as it's all about a personal tolerance to noise. I've heard of superb results in low light shooting, but that's just anecdotal. I've seen some night time available light shots that looked great, but don't know the full shooting details to comment further.

Again, delivery is not the part of the RED project that I'm involved with. I wish I had the knowledge to talk about that stuff, but I'm in so deep with the image processing and workflow, I rarely peep up to see what else is happening. There's just too much to know!

Graeme
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snickgrr
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« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2008, 12:25:10 PM »
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In this clip, the one James linked to, the noise looks great, but when the women first exhales the smoke it looks very pixelated on my screen.
I'm assuming that's easily cleaned up or is just my video card that doing the effect?

http://www.bealecorner.org/red/extnightBM2k_1k.mov
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 12:25:21 PM by snickgrr » Logged
Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2008, 12:36:01 PM »
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Just looks like a bit too much compression for the web, to me.

Graeme
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snickgrr
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« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2008, 12:40:28 PM »
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<slaps forehead>  
Of course!
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James R Russell
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« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2008, 12:27:31 PM »
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<slaps forehead> 
Of course!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


compressing digital video is an art and science in it's own right and the combinations would take a year to learn.

When we send out an on-line approval clip, it is never easy as a client with a mac can see h264, another one only mp4 and some pc clients, or mac challenged clients can only see a Sorenson 3 which compared to the new h264 codecs is night and day.

If you knew what the Hollywood studios spend to manually compress a dvd for consumer play the costs would knock you over as they will work each segment in a different bit rate, with many variable passes.

Actually there was a period of web only broadcasts where a dp knew not to move the camera during a take as the only imagery that had to be rewritten was the subject.  If you want to see web footage fall apart, do a slow crawl, zoom, or track into a subject and eventually some pixelization will finally just break up the image.  Same with cross transitions.

The thing about the red footage I've noticed is how smooth it looks in comparision to the standard hdv I've shot.  Probably due to a lot of things, chip size, compression, lenses, etc.

Even in the web clip, which obviously was not shot for artistic merits, I think the footage at 500 iso was stunning.

JR
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DesW
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« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2008, 01:13:51 PM »
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Good Morning Folks

We have the RED camera inhouse at present--I'll report findings.

Des
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BJNY
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« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2008, 02:03:37 PM »
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RED news at NAB:

http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/04...ed.at.nab.2008/
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Guillermo
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« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2008, 02:44:05 PM »
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Another Story and Image:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=180
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BJNY
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« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2008, 05:03:37 PM »
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How does the 3K, 4K & 5K equate to megapixels?
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Guillermo
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« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2008, 05:09:10 PM »
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It's the number of pixels on the wide dimension.

Michael
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James R Russell
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« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2008, 07:49:07 PM »
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It's the number of pixels on the wide dimension.

Michael
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Well, Michael, I had great hopes for Red until this last annoucement.

I guess they've been reading the LL medium format forum and decided a $17,500 just wasn't what the market could bear, so wa-la, now we're at an "upgrade" to $30,000, with a statement that "all specs, delivery dates could change, count on it."

Welcome to Medium Format Digital land.

I was set to buy the Red actually called but nobody answered, but now, I don't know, because I don't know the whole story.

Does the 4k Red end now, waiting for the 5k, and the litle Scarlet, well, I don't have much use for a 2/3" chip so that wasn't the plan to throw focus.

JR
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2008, 09:24:16 PM »
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Red One at 4k continues on, and there will be a RED One upgrade path, as well as the total upgrade of getting the 100% credit towards a Epic.

Graeme
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James R Russell
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« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2008, 12:10:01 AM »
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Red One at 4k continues on, and there will be a RED One upgrade path, as well as the total upgrade of getting the 100% credit towards a Epic.

Graeme
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Graeme,

In a way I was somewhat joking, well maybe not 100%.

Still, if you've spent any time in the still digital world, especially medium format the words upgrade path, specifications and delivery subject to change wrapped around a 30K price tag  pretty much sends a chill up your spine.

A few weeks ago I was really impressed with the scope and transparency of the Red web site and though I am considering the purchase, I must admit I've gone down this early adopter road before and when a manufacturer announces new product, just briefly after the original product is just shipping it makes me pause and think maybe this is one I'll wait out until it really gets the kinks worked out (if there are any kinks).

JR
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2008, 12:27:49 AM »
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Of course, putting things in perspective, top end DSLRs are less than $10,000 and Medium format camera systems less and $40,000. That's very different to the moving imaging world, where it wasn't long back that $40,000 would get you a betacam, and $100,000 was where the HDCAM was, or thereabouts, and now top end HD cameras could be somewhere around $250,000.

New products are always interesting to announce. We certainly announce ahead of time to elicit feedback. To me, that just makes sense. I fully understand about how it can seem when a new product looks to replace the existing one so soon, but again, it's not that we're dropping the old, but working on a product for another segment of the market, those that have features ahead of price, so to speak, and certainly the $17,500 to ~$40,000 price is not as significant when the "alternatives" are rental only or in the 1/4 million range, and the glass you'll be using with it is a significant cost of the shooting package.

And from my point of view, it's more fun and interesting to be open and have a dialogue, than just to announce a product when it's done and say "take it or leave it".

If you're unsure at all about buying a RED, I'd be much happier that you wait. I don't see the harm in that at all, and if you want to check out the image aesthetic and product philosophy, I think Scarlet would make a fine and affordable introduction.

The "subject to change" stuff is really just brutal honesty, and part of the feedback programme. And change does mean change, not just "remove", but "add" too.

What's nice about RED, is that we're real people, we all shoot (film or digital stills or movies), we all use the gear, we love good glass, we aspire to make fantastic images. I'm very proud of the images our cameras make. I'm passionate about images, moving or still, and I really do think that shows through.

Graeme
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 12:29:15 AM by Graeme Nattress » Logged

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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2008, 09:59:33 AM »
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graham.

so this scarlett..

costs how much?

takes nikon lenses ?

how big is the chip? - try and talk camera sizes if you know them

how wide would my 14mm nikkor be

is the chip smaller or the pixels per inch lower

SMM
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2008, 12:22:22 AM »
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Cost, around $3000. It's a fixed zoom lens, 2/3" sensor, 3k resolution.

Graeme
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« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2008, 11:37:01 AM »
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Cost, around $3000. It's a fixed zoom lens, 2/3" sensor, 3k resolution.

Graeme
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so in stills language that is a physically small chip (for a still camera and large for a video)

Ie DOF will be good but not great

The zoom lens will be equivelent to what in 35mm terms 28-70 or what ?

Sorry to be a dummy

S
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michael
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« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2008, 02:52:39 PM »
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For some stills pros the real alternative to DSLRs and MFDBs will be the Red Epic announced at the same time as the Scarlet.

It weighs 6lbs, has a 5 K chip (about 20MP) and can shoot raw stills and video at 100 FPS, and with interchangeable lenses. Priced like a medium format back though.

Michael
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 02:53:31 PM by michael » Logged
DesW
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« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2008, 04:59:26 PM »
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Of course, putting things in perspective, top end DSLRs are less than $10,000 and Medium format camera systems less and $40,000. That's very different to the moving imaging world, where it wasn't long back that $40,000 would get you a betacam, and $100,000 was where the HDCAM was, or thereabouts, and now top end HD cameras could be somewhere around $250,000.

New products are always interesting to announce. We certainly announce ahead of time to elicit feedback. To me, that just makes sense. I fully understand about how it can seem when a new product looks to replace the existing one so soon, but again, it's not that we're dropping the old, but working on a product for another segment of the market, those that have features ahead of price, so to speak, and certainly the $17,500 to ~$40,000 price is not as significant when the "alternatives" are rental only or in the 1/4 million range, and the glass you'll be using with it is a significant cost of the shooting package.

And from my point of view, it's more fun and interesting to be open and have a dialogue, than just to announce a product when it's done and say "take it or leave it".

If you're unsure at all about buying a RED, I'd be much happier that you wait. I don't see the harm in that at all, and if you want to check out the image aesthetic and product philosophy, I think Scarlet would make a fine and affordable introduction.

The "subject to change" stuff is really just brutal honesty, and part of the feedback programme. And change does mean change, not just "remove", but "add" too.

What's nice about RED, is that we're real people, we all shoot (film or digital stills or movies), we all use the gear, we love good glass, we aspire to make fantastic images. I'm very proud of the images our cameras make. I'm passionate about images, moving or still, and I really do think that shows through.

Graeme
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=189606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Graeme,

We are looking for an Underwater Housing for our RED --any pointers or prospective interest?

Des W
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James R Russell
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« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2008, 10:49:28 AM »
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For some stills pros the real alternative to DSLRs and MFDBs will be the Red Epic announced at the same time as the Scarlet.

It weighs 6lbs, has a 5 K chip (about 20MP) and can shoot raw stills and video at 100 FPS, and with interchangeable lenses. Priced like a medium format back though.

Michael
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


We are now within inches of where moving digital capture (anything but the term video) is not going to be a afterthought or added on to a still shoot, it will be the standard procedure of a still shoot.

Now before everyone starts grabbing their Sinars, Hasselblads and Nikons and throw them at my door screaming about the purity of still images, regardless tradition,  the industry is moving in the direction of convergence.

Still sets resemble mini movie sets, with gaffers, monitors, multiple lighting solutions and instant review of what was shot.

Talk to clients (usually direct not ad agencies), or publishers and mention the word "video"  and they listen very intently.

We hear about democratization that the internet has given publishing, (see this site for example), television view, journalism and movies, but it's not democratization that the internet is providing, it's a common carrier and network (free or not)  where moving imagery carries as much if not more weight than stills.

We are still in the early stages of how this works in advertising, but remember it's much more effort to scrub past an advertisement embedded in a video than it is to set your browser to block pop ups.

Now how the Red works into this, especially at 5k is something that should give us all some pause.

If the same image you shoot in "video" will run on a double page spread then there is something to be said for the one camera system.

The reason I said talk to clients and publishers instead of ad agencies is a lot of agencies still seem to be in the traditional mindset where a still photographer only shoots stills and a film director only directs film and never the two shall meet, at least in harmony.

I recently shot a large project where there were two sets and two  productions, one 35mm film the other my still set.

I'm not complaining about my role or what I was asked to do, because it was a very rewarding project,  but working next to the "film" set it was obvious that both could be integrated with no more than a change in camera and a few different lighting placements.

If the projects had been combined, the savings would have been in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and the interesting part was on the film set the client was relegated to viewing the image on a flickering video tap, where on our still set we had color corrected imagery coming into the computer every click of the shutter.  

Where the Red plays into this I don't know because I guess no mortal has shot with a 5k red, at least in this type of mixed media production, but it seems that is logical that it could/would/probably should go this way and not with compromise.

My studio shoots and produces a lot of parallel productions and working in this form of harmony, even taking into account sound, different framing ratios, different lighting requirements, the convergence gets closer every day.

[a href=\"http://russellrutherford.com/directorscutmed.mov]http://russellrutherford.com/directorscutmed.mov[/url]

JR
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 03:38:54 PM by James R Russell » Logged

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