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Author Topic: MR and LL Heading in the Wrong Direction?  (Read 22224 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2008, 01:43:48 AM »
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However, this past month LL has been wrought with controversy. I'm ok with "Your Camera Does Matter" and most of the baggage that followed; today though with the "Editor's Note" accompanying Sean Reid's article, I think, has 'crossed the line.'

The 'Editor's Note' is simply foolish and ridden with ego.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The introduction is just an energic way to state an obvious truth.

Cheers,
Bernard
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nokinq
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2008, 03:39:16 AM »
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What is at issue here is not whether the "camera matters" or not, as any regular reader of LL forums will know the typical subscriber here is well capable of deciding this "old chessnut" without falling into stupid assumptions:the problem is Michaels article and his intro to Sean Reid's article.
It must be abundantly clear to all members of these forums that Michael reacts badly to any criticism constuctive or otherwise indeed he responds with the verbal weapons of the bully by name calling and denigration of his critics, he unfortunately portrays himself in a very poor light which is very dissappointing to those of us who admire his other traits and achievements. Old dogs don't learn new tricks and leopards don't change their spots so it looks like we will have to tolerate Michael's occassional lapse's of civility.
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Quentin
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2008, 04:30:29 AM »
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The personal angle is interesting.  I have been on the receiving end of some of the most vicious and spiteful messages in threads on other groups for the simple reason I have expressed a degree of praise for the controversial subject of microstock photo libraries to a more traditionally minded audience (in a similar thread here, the response was mostly altogether more civilised, in keeping with the high standard we get on the LL most of the time).  

I am therefore only too well aware how easy it is for vigrorous debate to slip in to personal insults.  Keeping a level head in those circumstances is remarkably difficult, even for someone like myself trained as a litigator, and thus not averse to the odd spat  

My point is that this is not, in my view, the place for sycophancy and that politely disagreeing with Michael or the established view should not of itself be grounds for criticism.  In fact the problem with a lot of groups is they can become seen by a few regulars as a kind of fiefdom where outsiders with an alternative viewpoint are unwelcome (e.g. my microstock views promulgated on traditionally minded stock forums).  I hope that attitude does not gain a hold here.

But having said that, the LL is not I think headed in the wrong direction.  It remains one of the webs best sites for serious photographers.  I enjoy it enormously.

Quentin
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 04:33:33 AM by Quentin » Logged

Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
Steven Draper
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2008, 08:29:44 AM »
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One of the problems with "writing " something is that you never get to know if the reader has taken  away the intended message, and with the web open to anyone with an internet connection then a wide variety of skills may be demonstrated, or not.

A number of issues can occur, one being language differences or how words are used differently in different countries.

But often we bring our own views, expectations and opinions to an article, based on its headline. Most folks are careful, but sometimes this can lead to a mis-reading the message, especially when you add the fact it is easy to skim through the text very quickly, and often pay even less attention to replies.

Also I've found on a number of forums that there are a few people who seem to delight, not in the sharing or news and info, but promoting a more extreme, provocative opinion in order to generate emotional and passionate responses.

Whatever, if you have an opinion and write it reasonably well, it is enormously frustrating when people respond in such away that demonstrates that they have not bothered to understand the authors view point, even if they disagree with it.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 03:28:10 PM by Steven Draper » Logged

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barryfitzgerald
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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2008, 10:05:03 AM »
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...but promoting a more extreme, provocative opinion in order to generate a emotional and passionate responses.

Whatever, if you have an opinion and write it reasonably well, it is enormously frustration when people respond in such away that demonstrates that they have not bothered to understand the authors view point, even if they disagree with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Michael made the mistake of not making a reasoned and informed response to the rockwell article, instead using a poor choice of words, and a one sided angry rant to counter it.

"One of the hoariest of the hoary cliches is that a good photographer can take a good photograph with just about any camera. Horseshit"

I honestly expected an intelligent and reasoned counter article to the one from Ken, pointing out a few things, and making his own statement. But then you get this stuff thrown up on your screen..how can you take that seriously?? Worse than that anyone who does not agree with Michael is unable to read properly.

So weak is his argument, he has to invite a guest on to put up an article...which in is the one "his should have been". I would have had a bit more respect had he asked someone who did not agree with him to write one!

I have no beef with MR or indeed KR, I am sure they are both really nice blokes. These new desperate attempts to get the message across are all too late..it reminds me of the Clay V Cooper fight in 63', we know who really won, and we know who was glazed eyes all over in the corner..time wasting to get a leg back in the ring.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 10:10:31 AM by barryfitzgerald » Logged
sreidvt
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2008, 11:14:50 AM »
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So weak is his argument, he has to invite a guest on to put up an article...which in is the one "his should have been". I would have had a bit more respect had he asked someone who did not agree with him to write one!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, I contacted Michael and offered to write an essay because I had some thoughts on the subject that I thought might be of interest to some other readers. It's very rare now that I write for any site other than my own but this new essay was my idea, not Michael's.

Cheers,

Sean
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David Mantripp
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2008, 02:35:02 PM »
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It is interesting how the whole thing is viewed as a tiff between MR & KR. As far as I can tell, apart from a brief reference, and maybe a tongue in cheek follow up, KR hasn't actually been involved in this at all - rather he's maintained a dignified silence ... or maybe he just doesn't give a damn.

MR chose KR's article as a windmill to tilt against. Unfortunately, this ended up looking like an ad hominen attack, which distracted from the actual core of the article.  Strange, bad judgement, and totally unnecessary, and one can't help but wonder if it did all come out of a conversation with Jeff "Mr Tactful" Schewe.

Anyway, wth.  Sean Reid's article was very well written and made MR's point far better than he did himself.  So it all worked out fine.
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paulbk
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2008, 04:18:29 PM »
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Never have so many said so little for so long.
If ever there was a pointless argument, this is it:

1) Better equipment is capable of capturing better images.
Sweet hour!

2) Those with more developed creative talent are capable of creating better photographs.
Stop the press!

1 + 2 = 3
Holy bayer pattern Bat Man!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 06:07:40 AM by paulbk » Logged

paul b. kramarchyk
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2008, 10:42:53 AM »
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One of the problems with "writing " something is that you never get to know if the reader has taken  away the intended message, and with the web open to anyone with an internet connection then a wide variety of skills may be demonstrated, or not.

A number of issues can occur, one being language differences or how words are used differently in different countries.

But often we bring our own views, expectations and opinions to an article, based on its headline. Most folks are careful, but sometimes this can lead to a mis-reading the message, especially when you add the fact it is easy to skim through the text very quickly, and often pay even less attention to replies.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[My Bold]
This is my particular bug bear and what is probably what MR alludes to with his reading skills comment. Even here with what appears to be a brighter than average forum, people still do not read posts correctly and suddenly an argument ensues. Simply because people are too lazy to read carefully.
Online without the non-verbal clues that make up so much of how we communicate when talking, people should be extra careful about reading carefully before responding. I tend to read and reread posts before responding, to reduce the chance of that happening. Doesn't stop that happening to me sadly though.
One of my signatures for particularly illiterate forums is "Please read all the words in my post and not just the ones you like. And preferably in the order I wrote them"
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Panorama
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2008, 09:54:19 PM »
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To the OP - Much ado about nothing i think.

While I can't say that his choice of associations leads to his betterment in my view, that's for him to decide. I personally shudder at the thought, but that's his cross to bear...

Regarding his recognition that there are few people with writing or comprehension skills frequenting a particular forum, I can't understand why anyone would either object or criticize him for stating the obvious. Is it a form of misguided political correctness on your part?

I don't always agree with what MR says, but so what? Let's be thankful that we can view things differently sometimes and promote discussion. Let the man voice his opinion and speak his mind; he does the same thing for you, doesn't he? If you don't like it, then you don't have to read those comments. There are lots of other good things on this site to occupy your time and mind. In many ways, it's like visiting that other 3-letter UK-based site beginning with a "D" and ending with a "R" that no one wants to name for some strange reason; you can choose when you want to expose yourself to the individuals that you find there, or you can choose to go elsewhere. Pretty simple actually.
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jjj
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2008, 06:15:15 PM »
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My reading comprehension remark was not aimed at anyone on this forum, or any discussion here either.

Unfortunately there is one well known discussion forum on the net where a great many trolls and know-nothings hang out, and it was there that people with what I ingraciously described as having sub-optimum reading skills reside.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael, the problem with all online forums is that people do not always read carefully before responding. Probably as they are visiting forum, whilst doing something else and quickly run off a post.
Even here where the caliber of poster is somewhat higher than elsewhere, some posters rather obviously skim a post, then fire off a wildly innaccurate reply. My policy is if I am on a forum, is to read carefully before responding and reread again - in context of other previous posts. And I don't do it when I'm doing other things.
It is so easy to misread tone as well online, so one needs to be very careful with humour and even if flagged with smilies, people take the daftest things at face value or the wrong way.

I have a good friend who I have known since I was 12-13, but I won't bother contacting him via email  during day for this very reason. Even with someone I know so very well, misunderstandings occur especially when multitasking i.e doing several jobs sub-optimally!


The reaction of the OP to your intro being a case in point of misreading and misunderstanding. I like many other read your site to hear your views even if I may not always agree with them. But they are always well thought out and interesting.
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situgrrl
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2008, 06:37:27 PM »
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There is a strong part of me that hopes Michael's most recent article was, in part, meant as a silent snub to this thread.  If we could have more like it, I would certainly be one of the grateful ones.
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lightstand
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2008, 10:01:38 PM »
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There is a strong part of me that hopes Michael's most recent article was, in part, meant as a silent snub to this thread.  If we could have more like it, I would certainly be one of the grateful ones.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187762\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 I agree the "Balmoral Mist Deconstructed" article is very refreshing over the endless chatter about equipment. Great Job Michael!!!
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TaoMaas
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2008, 05:46:35 AM »
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[My Bold]
 Even here with what appears to be a brighter than average forum...[/i]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


After having discussed this article with folks on several different websites, I'm sorry to say that you can add "more vulgar and insulting" to your list of adjectives describing some of the posters, as well as the owner, of this site.
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michael
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2008, 07:02:11 AM »
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After having discussed this article with folks on several different websites, I'm sorry to say that you can add "more vulgar and insulting" to your list of adjectives describing some of the posters, as well as the owner, of this site.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When someone who is rude and vulgar visits my home, I ask them to leave. When visiting elsewhere, when my host is rude and vulgar, I simply leave.

Get it?

Michael
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 07:03:38 AM by michael » Logged
walter.sk
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2008, 07:10:12 AM »
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[My Bold]
This is my particular bug bear and what is probably what MR alludes to with his reading skills comment. Even here with what appears to be a brighter than average forum, people still do not read posts correctly and suddenly an argument ensues. Simply because people are too lazy to read carefully.
Online without the non-verbal clues that make up so much of how we communicate when talking, people should be extra careful about reading carefully before responding. I tend to read and reread posts before responding, to reduce the chance of that happening. Doesn't stop that happening to me sadly though.
One of my signatures for particularly illiterate forums is "Please read all the words in my post and not just the ones you like. And preferably in the order I wrote them"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's always a bit frustrating for me when I get responses to my posts where the person misses one or two words and therefore misunderstands my question or statement.  However, I'm sure I have been guilty of that as well.  I joined this forum when I got a new printer, but have stayed here because of the generally high level of communication, willingness to share knowledge and help others.  This forum is head and shoulders above many others out there.

An aside: I checked out your Futt Futt Futt link and I loved it, especially the Abstract, Observed, and Pixus categories.  Great images!  You must really have a good camera!...(just kidding!)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 07:10:52 AM by walter.sk » Logged
TaoMaas
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2008, 07:47:14 AM »
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When someone who is rude and vulgar visits my home, I ask them to leave. When visiting elsewhere, when my host is rude and vulgar, I simply leave.

Get it?

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


But that's the whole point here, Michael.  Go back and take a look at who was first to throw around vulgar terms.  It wasn't the visitors who brought that here.  We came here and found it when it didn't exist elsewhere.  It's your house, you can run it as you please, but you will also be judged by the company you keep.
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Marlyn
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2008, 08:20:18 AM »
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His point, I belive, is if you don't like what he says in his house (or his forums, site), then your welcome to leave.  Who did what to whom and when, is irrelevant to that point.

Mark
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barryfitzgerald
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2008, 08:28:00 AM »
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His point, I belive, is if you don't like what he says in his house (or his forums, site), then your welcome to leave.  Who did what to whom and when, is irrelevant to that point.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I would take it as that. But...

And if you are in the business of presenting your site to the public, I think I would rather not have a certain few words on there, might put people off a tad. That is just smart business sense..

I am no stranger to heated debates, but there is civil way to act..and some words have no place on a site or forum.


I am still waiting for that "spanking" it never happened..wonder why. ;-)
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2008, 09:45:08 AM »
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I am still waiting for that "spanking" it never happened..wonder why. ;-)

Perhaps because most people think you would enjoy it too much?
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