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Author Topic: Hasselblad H3D-39 not perfect ?  (Read 19952 times)
Justinr
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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2008, 04:27:09 AM »
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Canon's position is due to fact that they had a chip fab line of their own, while Nikon had to get their electronics elsewhere. So Canon could experiment at will, and market their fullframe chip. The fact that Canon had fullframe for two generations when Nikon didn't carried the market. Canon delivered, while Nikon tried to convince people that "crop-frame" was inherently superior smile.gif

But even so they were still selling the vast majority of their cameras as half frames. The market was in these cheaper models and yet they still trumped Nikon. I stepped into the dSLR market with a Canon and have recorded elsewhere on this forum my distinct dissatisfaction with their products. Have Nikon had issues with sensor alignment or autofocus? Canon may have been leading the market but with a product that wasn't really ready, that was marketing triumphing over manufacture and MF makers are caught in the same vice of fearing that if they are not constantly crying out for attention then their ship will sink.

Justin.
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Justinr
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« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2008, 05:01:26 AM »
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Especially the time it takes to learn, master and work through one of these cameras and though the dslrs may be easier on the capture end, they take just as much work to make exceptional imagery on the back end, (usuall more work) so there is no free lunch.

Sadly James I find myself in disagreement here. I found my dSLR a monster of complexity compared with aDMF which seems so straightforward. I sometimes suspect that the former are designed to appeal to camera nuts in the enthusiasts market rather than photographers who just want to get a picture rather than feel good about mastering the blinkin' box with a hole in the front. But then again, the complexity is often needed to make up for digital's shortcomings.

Justin.
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eronald
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« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2008, 05:01:32 AM »
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Have Nikon had issues with sensor alignment or autofocus? Canon may have been leading the market but with a product that wasn't really ready, that was marketing triumphing over manufacture and MF makers are caught in the same vice of fearing that if they are not constantly crying out for attention then their ship will sink.

Justin.
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Yes Nikon had problems too. The D1x flagship had severe focus problems due to wear of the mirror box.

We've got to the stage where the compact cameras and consumer dSLRs seem to work out of the box. Give it two or three years and the MF units will be similarly mature - one or two generations of body design to get some alignment aids in there, one or two generations of silicon and a sensor will only cost $100 and the bad ones will be junked at manufacture rather than corrected with software.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 05:01:48 AM by eronald » Logged

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MarkKay
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« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2008, 10:05:01 AM »
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Hey I live in Palo Alto... and you are close to right.. !!!!

What an interesting thread.. I do have to say that I like to take control and prefer the default really being set to zero as Hasselblad has done.

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Steve,

Be realistic.

Nobody that  is in the market for a medium format system is going to look at photos of a sky or a 1 bedroom house with a "ladder" attached (though in Palo Alto this is probably 1.5m) and make their fnal decision.


JR
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Dinarius
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« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2008, 11:54:20 AM »
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Interesting thread.

In my part of the world (Ireland) the same dealer has the agency for both Hasselblad and Phase. Only today, I was told that customers (particularly institutional and industrial clients who are buying for in-house photographers) are moving to Phase in droves because the perception (rightly or wrongly) is that Hassie just can't get their sh1t together, as we say around here.

That said, I am still waiting for my H3Dll MS. Will it ever arrive? Who knows!? Meanwhile I am using a loan H2D. And when you get used to Flexcolour (after ACR with my beloved Mk3 Canon, it's like using a jackhammer instead of a scalpel) it's bloody marvellous!

D.
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jecxz
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« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2008, 12:03:28 PM »
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In my part of the world (Ireland) the same dealer has the agency for both Hasselblad and Phase. Only today, I was told that customers (particularly institutional and industrial clients who are buying for in-house photographers) are moving to Phase in droves because the perception (rightly or wrongly) is that Hassie just can't get their sh1t together, as we say around here.

That said, I am still waiting for my H3Dll MS. Will it ever arrive? Who knows!? Meanwhile I am using a loan H2D. And when you get used to Flexcolour (after ACR with my beloved Mk3 Canon, it's like using a jackhammer instead of a scalpel) it's bloody marvellous!

D.
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Dinarius, If you could, please define:

"same dealer" = actual name?

"in droves" = quantity, or, how many is a in a drove, i.e. 5,10,15,50,100?

"their sh1t" = what? hardware, software, service, all of the above, explain please, can you?

Thanks in advance and be well.
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Dinarius
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2008, 02:22:10 AM »
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jecxz,

Here's the dealer........

http://www.dml.ie/

They didn't quantify numbers when speaking to me and I didn't ask for clarification. As I explained, my loyalty is to Hasselblad either way, so Phase outselling Hasselblad (if that is the case) doesn't concern me. The market here is tiny, in any case, and could in no way be construed as a reflection of the broader market.

So, feel free to contact them yourself if you'd like to know more.

Hasselblad's failure to get its act together was simply a reference to the endless delays in the launch of the MS backs and Phocus. I would have thought that was obvious.   I was promised mine end of January - and I know from private conversations with others who have contributed to this thread that they were too.

D.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 02:27:31 AM by Dinarius » Logged
Justinr
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2008, 05:31:02 AM »
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Dinarius

You might as well have said the only pro dealer in Ireland, certainly the other fellow up near the Red Cow is hardly the most ambitious when it comes to shifting units. However, I've heard that DML are also picking up a Canon Pro dealership and will be shifting Phase One hardware, AKA Mamiya, when the time comes.  It's Just a shame that Paddy Barker doesn't do cameras as having just the one choice is never healthy and, as highly as I regard DML and appreciate that their main competition is less than an hours flight away over the water, it would be nice to have a second supplier on home turf. It will be interesting to see how they reconcile this apparent conflict in stocking two major competitors, will J. and M. (Trev's taking himself out of the equation) be at each other with hurlies over every new customer that mounts the stairs or will it be the usual amicable muddle between all parties. I know where I'd put my money.  

BTW. Dou you know what's happening to Alan downstairs when the great move comes?

Justin.
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yaya
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2008, 06:00:25 AM »
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Dinarius and Justin is any of you going to the PhotoFest this year?
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Justinr
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2008, 06:08:47 AM »
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I certainly hope to get there.

Justin
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jecxz
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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2008, 06:49:55 AM »
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jecxz,

Here's the dealer........

http://www.dml.ie/

They didn't quantify numbers when speaking to me and I didn't ask for clarification. As I explained, my loyalty is to Hasselblad either way, so Phase outselling Hasselblad (if that is the case) doesn't concern me. The market here is tiny, in any case, and could in no way be construed as a reflection of the broader market.

So, feel free to contact them yourself if you'd like to know more.

Hasselblad's failure to get its act together was simply a reference to the endless delays in the launch of the MS backs and Phocus. I would have thought that was obvious.   I was promised mine end of January - and I know from private conversations with others who have contributed to this thread that they were too.

D.
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Dinarius,

I was promised a bump to 1 minute exposure (important for me) by January when I purchased the H3DII39 (in December). I've also reported minor quirks and I'm told they are 140% on Phocus and nothing else. I'm PC, so who knows when I'll get Phocus. I think they need to address the growing frustration with their customers, like you and I. Thanks and be well.
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Dinarius
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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2008, 07:46:39 AM »
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Jecxz,

I also hope that at least two issues are addressed:

In my line of work I use mirror up/self-timer about 99.9% of the time. On the Mk3, this can be set using one of Canon's fab Custom Functions. You then simply press the shutter button, the mirror is raised and the shutter fires two (or ten) seconds later. Brilliant!

On the Hassie, you have to move you finger to a button hidden behind the grip and press it twice in quick succession! This raises the mirror. You then press the shutter button and the shutter fires two seconds later. Crazy! Even worse, you have to do this EVERY time. You cannot, as far as I know, set it as an action as on on the Canon.

In addition, I have discovered on my loan H3D 39 that if I raise the mirror and fire the shutter via Flexcolor (i.e. click on Capture) the back seizes and has to be removed from the body and restarted. I must press the shutter button - when Flexcolor does load the image.

Hassie must enter the wonderful world of custom functions. There are six menu items (with a few sub-menus) on the Hassie, there are dozens on a Canon.

Another thing..........1/3 increments for both shutter speed and f/stop are mandatory in this day and age.

You're probably wondering why I'm bothering with Hasselblad? I want the MS, which I believe to be Hasselblad's (and Sinar's) USP. Thierry, if only you had a screen on your MS backs. I would definitely have considered them then.   And speaking of screens, my mobile phone has a better screen than the H3D.  

OK, I'll shut up now.

D.

ps. YaYa, I don't even know what PhotoFest is. Excuse my ignorance.  
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:48:31 AM by Dinarius » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2008, 07:55:01 AM »
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Dinarius, the mirror up you can route towards either the AE-L button or the user button (as long as the H3 works the same way as the H2). At these buttons it is so much easier to acces MUP

I totally understand what you mean, this is a true annoyance in my eyes as well. MUP should also be a function that can be invoked by Flex or later Phocus.

I can tell you that with multishot, the mirror goes up first and than the shots are taken after which the mirror comes down again. Enough time between mirror movements and the shutter actions. (at least that is the way it works with the 384).

The error with Flexcolor is weird. I have shot thousands of shots with the camera 10feet in the air, mirror up and firing via Flexcolor. Maybe something weird of the H3.

I am still sometimes so glad I use the CF.

BTW, I find the screen on the H3DII a lot better! At least the screen on a friends H3DII31 I found a big improvement (though still no D300 type of screen).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:56:20 AM by Dustbak » Logged
jecxz
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« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2008, 07:55:03 AM »
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Dinarius,

I'm 100% using mirror up, with a 3 second timer. But I read your post elsewhere about the crash when tethered--I think I saw this myself when experimenting. Sorry about that.

If you don't use the User button, set that button to Mirror Up!

On my bodies I have the Mirror up button reconfigured to Self-Timer on/off.

FYI: You'd love the new LCD on the H3DII - just beautiful.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 10:40:05 AM by jecxz » Logged

dennismv
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2008, 07:13:36 PM »
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I use my H3D 39 11 every day & love the flat neutral non-punchy images that it delivers thus allowing me to enhance to my hearts content in Flexcolor & PS.

I am curious, what kind of enhancements can be made ?  Are we talking about emphasizing a certain color, or adding sharpening effects or something else entirely ?
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pprdigital
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« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2008, 08:51:26 PM »
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I am curious, what kind of enhancements can be made ?  Are we talking about emphasizing a certain color, or adding sharpening effects or something else entirely ?
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Dennis:

You have complete control over -

*curves - including individual RGB/CMYK curves, you can click a point anywhere in the image and the pixel value of that click will then appear as a editable point on your curve. And curve points do respond to arrow keys, so very precise adjustments can be made.

*histogram/levels - with mid-tone and endpoint controls, viewable in f-stops, RGB values, input/output values, and per individual color channel.

*color correction - global saturation and (somewhat) selective color editing control. The selective control works great for blues and greens, not so selectively for yellows/browns/reds. However, if skin tone is paramount and totally accurate colors outside of the skin tone aren't important, it's great for custom tweaking of skin tones. The selective color is not in the current Phocus beta, but I'm told it will be back and improved in a future version.

*sharpening - standard sharpening tools similar to photoshop's unsharp mask. But you can also limit shadow sharpening and you can customize sharpening amounts per individual RGB channel.

All of these functions are combinable and savable as a "recipe" which can be batch applied, or individual settings can be saved and selectively batch applied. They can also be applied on imported imags automatically on the fly as they import as well as when shooting tethered.

There are also controls for color temperature/tint, exposure, and a selective shadow masking tool (the shadow mask tool is not in Phocus - I am hoping they include it in a future version release.)

Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
Dustbak
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« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2008, 01:03:48 AM »
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Those are the enhancements you can do with Flex. What I like about the flat file is that you can do any enhancement you like either with Flex or PS. Most enhancements will increase contrast either by its own function or because you have to up contrast slightly to mask negative side effects.

Global or selective color adjustments will enhance contrast, curves, levels, color blending, all of these and more will give your image more contrast.

If your starting point is an already contrasty/punchy file you are definitely limited in the amount of adjustments you can do.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 01:29:25 AM by Dustbak » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2008, 03:34:18 AM »
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If your starting point is an already contrasty/punchy file you are definitely limited in the amount of adjustments you can do.
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No.

The default enhancement in C1 is just a film curve, which can simply be deselected and replaced by a linear curve. This is true for C1. The same in ACR/Lightroom or RD. I bet it's the same for Leaf. There are also some preselects for saturation and color and sharpness.

If you disagree with the default choices, just set other defaults.

WHAT YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN OF A RAW PROCESSOR IS NOT THE FILE, IT IS WHAT YOU WILL GET IF YOU PROCESS THE FILE WITH THE CURRENT PARAMETERS.

The best investment you can make if you don't get that is to find a dealer who will explain it to you or take a course.

If you cannot set the defaults it most likely means you are not very good at operating software, or the software is hard to set up, rather than meaning the camera or software is functionally incapable of giving you the defaults you want. I'l make an exception for Photoshop's ACR and LR which have foobarred color models but hopefully this will get fixed soon.

I do agree there are differences between backs and software.I do agree that if you can buy something that works for you out of the box that is definitely what you should buy. But don't suppose they are really that different under the skin, they are not. The sensors are similar, the usage constraints and linearisation are similar, it follows that the files are actually very similar.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 03:46:05 AM by eronald » Logged

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Justinr
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« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2008, 04:57:51 AM »
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you are not very good at operating software,

Perhaps here is the wrong place to mention it but this is me all over. I'm hopeless with matters IT, does this mean that I am a bad photographer in today's brave new digital world? Am I to be denied the chance to express myself as fully as I wish because I prefer photography to messing with binary logic?

It is easy to become so absorbed in the mechanism that we forget the function.

Justin.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 04:59:21 AM by Justinr » Logged

Dustbak
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« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2008, 05:05:51 AM »
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No.

The default enhancement in C1 is just a film curve, which can simply be deselected and replaced by a linear curve. This is true for C1. The same in ACR/Lightroom or RD. I bet it's the same for Leaf. There are also some preselects for saturation and color and sharpness.

If you disagree with the default choices, just set other defaults.

WHAT YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN OF A RAW PROCESSOR IS NOT THE FILE, IT IS WHAT YOU WILL GET IF YOU PROCESS THE FILE WITH THE CURRENT PARAMETERS.

The best investment you can make if you don't get that is to find a dealer who will explain it to you or take a course.

If you cannot set the defaults it most likely means you are not very good at operating software, or the software is hard to set up, rather than meaning the camera or software is functionally incapable of giving you the defaults you want. I'l make an exception for Photoshop's ACR and LR which have foobarred color models but hopefully this will get fixed soon.

I do agree there are differences between backs and software.I do agree that if you can buy something that works for you out of the box that is definitely what you should buy. But don't suppose they are really that different under the skin, they are not. The sensors are similar, the usage constraints and linearisation are similar, it follows that the files are actually very similar.

Edmund
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Euh.... Edmund this is exactly what I have been saying. Flexcolor starts default with a linear file where some others don't. Naturally you can set it to linear and do the same thing. We are talking about where most developers start.

When you would process a file through a raw developer that at default already applies stuff you are limited in your additional 'enhancements'. Maybe that word choice is more appropriate or clearer?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 05:07:15 AM by Dustbak » Logged
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