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Author Topic: LR 2.0 replacing PK Sharpener?  (Read 7846 times)
tandlh
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« on: April 03, 2008, 12:58:04 PM »
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I'm just wondering if the output sharpening now available in LR 2.0 is equivalent or better than PK Sharpener and if so will that now replace PK Sharpener for LR 2.0 users?  I finally downloaded the PK tial software just before the 2.0 announcement was made with the intent of buying it next week if it worked out, and of course it has.  But now it seems like the $99 would be better spent on upgrading to LR 2.0 when it comes out if it provides the same functionality.  

Ted
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John Hollenberg
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2008, 01:18:09 PM »
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There is one report in the LR 2.0 Beta forum that the output sharpening is too aggressive for "Glossy, Low" setting.  I haven't tested it myself.  However, I am sure there will be some tweaking between now and final release also.

--John
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tandlh
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2008, 01:23:55 PM »
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Thanks John,
    As I'm also a member of your IPF wiki spaces you'll appreciate my additional dillema.  If I want to use Canon's Export Module I need to be in Photoshop.  As far as I know you can't access it from LR, but maybe I'm wrong.   That being the case, if I do use LR 2.0 in lieu of PK Sharpener for output sharpening the work flow would be something like this:

1.  Open and apply adjustments in LR
2.  Softproof and adjust in Photoshop
3.  Output sharpen in LR
4.  Print from export module in Photoshop

   Clearly a pain, and a case for PK Sharpener for Canon printer users.  But I've had a nagging feeling that PK Sharpener may not hang on after LR 2.0 if it's functionality and future upgrades are going to be covered in LR.

Ted
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francois
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 01:24:54 PM »
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I'm just wondering if the output sharpening now available in LR 2.0 is equivalent or better than PK Sharpener and if so will that now replace PK Sharpener for LR 2.0 users?  I finally downloaded the PK tial software just before the 2.0 announcement was made with the intent of buying it next week if it worked out, and of course it has.  But now it seems like the $99 would be better spent on upgrading to LR 2.0 when it comes out if it provides the same functionality. 

Ted
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In addition to capture and output sharpening, PKS does creative sharpening (ie localized sharpening/smoothing/Haze reduction etc...).
If you don't use the creative side of PKS (or don't know/want how to perform the equivalent effect) then Lightroom 2 is all you need.

I agree that it's a tough question...
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Francois
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 01:38:30 PM »
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1.  Open and apply adjustments in LR
2.  Softproof and adjust in Photoshop
3.  Output sharpen in LR
4.  Print from export module in Photoshop

Might as well stick with PK Sharpener for now, since you need PS for softproof (still) and the export module.  If they get the output sharpening really good in LR, and softproof is added, then it might be a different story.

--John
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francois
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2008, 02:07:28 PM »
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Thanks John,
…1.  Open and apply adjustments in LR
2.  Softproof and adjust in Photoshop
3.  Output sharpen in LR
4.  Print from export module in Photoshop
In Lightroom, output sharpen is performed in the print module. So you won't be able to output sharpen in LR and then print in Photoshop.

I agree with John's comment above, stay in Photoshop after point 1.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 02:07:42 PM by francois » Logged

Francois
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2008, 02:48:36 PM »
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As I do not have pk sharpener and currently "just wing it" with a fred miranda plugin I bought ages ago I think having an image bounce out to PS for soft proofing isn't such a bad thing.  (other than storage wise.)
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tandlh
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 02:53:58 PM »
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Thanks for comments.  Francois, good point on the where the sharpening takes place in LR.  That being the case it would appear that I do need to stick with a separate PK Sharpener.  That then just leaves the question about the future of PK Sharpener.  Hopefully it will continue to flourish and improve as a stand alone product as well as being 'adopted' by LR.

Jeff Schewe:  any insights on the future of PK Sharpener?
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 03:53:47 PM »
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In Lightroom, output sharpen is performed in the print module. So you won't be able to output sharpen in LR and then print in Photoshop.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Output Sharpening is also available in File->Export.

--Dave
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David
francois
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 02:31:49 AM »
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Output Sharpening is also available in File->Export.

--Dave
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Dave,
Thanks for the info. I didn't see it in the new v2.0 dialog.
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Francois
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2008, 03:13:27 AM »
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Although I'm excited about the possible inclusion of all of PK Sharpener's capabilities inside LR 2.0, contrary to other posters here, I don't think that the product will go away. After all, I use it inside PS CS3 with every image. The Creative Sharpening mode in PS is awesome.

Bud James
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Bud James
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PECourtejoie
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2008, 05:07:51 AM »
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François, I think that some form of creative sharpening must be possible in LR2 thanks to the localized clarity control...

Looks like the LR engineers did follow the regretted Bruce Fraser and his expertize on the matter, and Jeff Schewe and others are there to bring theirs.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 05:08:10 AM by PECourtejoie » Logged
francois
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 05:33:26 AM »
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François, I think that some form of creative sharpening must be possible in LR2 thanks to the localized clarity control...

Looks like the LR engineers did follow the regretted Bruce Fraser and his expertize on the matter, and Jeff Schewe and others are there to bring theirs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186965\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, indeeed, you're right but PKS offers much more than clarity. It's just the beginning, though. Lightroom will eventually include more of PKS functions...

Bruce's legacy and Jeff input are tremendous assets and bode well for the future of Lightroom.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 05:34:27 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 09:19:25 AM »
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Both capture, and the new output sharpening in LR 2.0 ARE based on PhotoKit Sharpener algorithms. Both Bruce and Jeff worked with the LR team here. My tests are showing a nearly identical result using PKS capture and output sharpening in Photoshop and LR. Note that Capture Sharpening in LR is still a manual process; in my tests I used the default sharpening in Capture (25/1/25/0) and Medium for output. YMMV but it should be pretty close. But this IS a beta and we DO need folks to do testing here.

Also, for fun, output the same image using the same capture and output sharpening in 1.4 then 2.0. Huge and dramatic difference in quality in the tests I've done.

Of course there is no creative sharpening in LR 2.0 (although using a negative Clarity setting does produce some selective "blurning").
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 09:20:38 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 03:50:56 PM »
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Both capture, and the new output sharpening in LR 2.0 ARE based on PhotoKit Sharpener algorithms.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What IS meant by "capture sharpening" in LR2? Is it the values of Radius=1.0 and Detail=25 that's applied to all photos ingested. Are the sharpening presets (Landscape & Portrait) examples of  "Creative" Sharpening?

--Dave
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David
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2008, 05:08:49 PM »
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What IS meant by "capture sharpening" in LR2? Is it the values of Radius=1.0 and Detail=25 that's applied to all photos ingested. Are the sharpening presets (Landscape & Portrait) examples of  "Creative" Sharpening?

--Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187109\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Capture sharpening in LR 2 is the same as in LR 1.3: the Amount, Radius, Detail, and Mask sliders.

The sharpening presets are examples of capture sharpening.

There is a blurry line sometimes between capture & creative sharpening. It can be argued in some cases that one is doing creative sharpening with some uses of the mask slider, for instance.
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Photo Op
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 07:00:50 PM »
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Thanks Eric. And the profiles are working fine!
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David
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2008, 10:51:42 PM »
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"Capture sharpening" is meant to sharpen only to regain the lost of apparent sharpness caused by the capture (or scan) process...what is NOT part of capture sharping is "sharpening for effect" or to otherwise alter the fundamental aspects of the image (such as trying  to overcome the effects of camera shake or loss of focus or depth of field) is the creative sharpening, for effect...which Lightroom can't do at the moment.
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