Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Right time to buy a MFDB?  (Read 7195 times)
vantomas
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 38


« on: April 08, 2008, 02:29:58 PM »
ReplyReply

I am facing the problem, which has been discussed in great depth. BUT... i still can't find an answer. I have been shooting film until 2003, first on a contax 645, then on the H1 and had to move to digital in 2004. Sold all my MF gear and got myself 2 canons 5Ds and all the necessary primes. So far everything went fine. Now that canon has released its ds MKIII I would very much like to upgrade. But in which direction?

I would love to shoot MF again: the image quality, the bigger viewfinder etc.
But I also love the convenience of my canon gear, although the lenses beneath 50mm ar really bad.

So whats an (affordable) option?

- refurb P1 with a Mamiya 645
- wait for the new P1-Mamiya camera
- H3?
- leaf aptus 22 with mamiya/contax/H2

or just go for the MKIII in the meantime?
will the MkIII be a real noticable step from the 5D in image quality?

i went to calumet the other day and had a look at the new hy6. lovely camera, but way to expensive and who knows if rollei is going to stay in business?

Sorry if I ask the same questions like so many others before, but it is really a difficult one.
With a lot of money involved.

thank you for any help or links
thomas


www.dashuber.com
Logged
klane
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 785

I live in a c-stand fort.


« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 02:45:59 PM »
ReplyReply

In my opinion, it does not matter which camera/back combo you pick, they are going to give similar results. I think it boils down to which camera you feel more comfortable with and has the most tools that suit the way you work.

Personally I like a camera that feels very textile (I own the rz sytem) I like actual knobs and dials in my hands, which is one thing I like about the contax compared to the h series. If you require leaf shutters though, the H may be your choice ( of course there is the hassy v, the rz, and the rollei 6000 series, but from your list it sounds like you prefer a 645 style camera)
Logged
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 02:46:18 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
i went to calumet the other day and had a look at the new hy6. lovely camera, but way to expensive and who knows if rollei is going to stay in business?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is it really more expensive than the H3D you listed?

Anyway, I would have a look for a refurbished Sinar eMotion 22. Thanks to the adapter system you can use it on multiple platforms or change your mind later about the camera and still use the same back.

No-one can really say which camera is right for you without knowing how you intend to use it. The Mamiya (and Phase camera which is just a rebadge) has a slow flash sync speed and fixed finder, for example, which is not for everyone. The AA batteries sounds like a PITA too.

You also need to look at the available lenses for each platform. What aspects of the camera and lenses are most important to you?
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
vantomas
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 38


« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 03:03:05 PM »
ReplyReply

i mainly shoot portraits. often with available light. sometimes with a small profoto equipment. with the H1 i did almost all my jobs with the 80mm. now using canon my preferred lenses are the 50/1.2 and the 85/1.2. but i sometimes have to crank up the iso to 640, which any canon can handle. which back is capable of doing so? i thougth about the P25. but a friend said it's moire-hell. my preferred aspect ratio is in deed 4:3
Logged
amsp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 788


« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 03:07:54 PM »
ReplyReply

I would keep one 5D and buy an affordable used Mamiya 645AFD, 3 lenses and a refurb. P25 or P30. It won't cost you much more than a MkIII and the difference in quality is there.
Logged
mcfoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 938


WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 03:12:48 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I am facing the problem, which has been discussed in great depth. BUT... i still can't find an answer. I have been shooting film until 2003, first on a contax 645, then on the H1 and had to move to digital in 2004. Sold all my MF gear and got myself 2 canons 5Ds and all the necessary primes. So far everything went fine. Now that canon has released its ds MKIII I would very much like to upgrade. But in which direction?

I would love to shoot MF again: the image quality, the bigger viewfinder etc.
But I also love the convenience of my canon gear, although the lenses beneath 50mm ar really bad.

So whats an (affordable) option?

- refurb P1 with a Mamiya 645
- wait for the new P1-Mamiya camera
- H3?
- leaf aptus 22 with mamiya/contax/H2

or just go for the MKIII in the meantime?
will the MkIII be a real noticable step from the 5D in image quality?

i went to calumet the other day and had a look at the new hy6. lovely camera, but way to expensive and who knows if rollei is going to stay in business?

Sorry if I ask the same questions like so many others before, but it is really a difficult one.
With a lot of money involved.

thank you for any help or links
thomas
www.dashuber.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
From hands on experience upgrade to the 1DsMKIII body. We have both the 5D & 1DsMKIII. We entered digital in 2000 manly through MFD & have been that way until a few months ago. Now the Canon will be a big part of our photography. We also use Mamiya & will stay that way as we have a few lenses including the ZD camera which I have had for 2 years & really enjoyed using it. I have a friend who is looking at MFD & I think will go with the 1DsMKIII in the end. Personally I would look at the Aptus 75s if I were going to buy a back. Great speed 1.1/fs & amazing file quality or look @ Phase One & Sinar. Rent a MFD kit to try to see if you like the feel of it. For me the big advantage of Mamiya is: it is light weight, affordable & has a lens range from 28 to 300 mm.

Thanks Denis
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 03:14:37 PM by mcfoto » Logged

Denis Montalbetti
Montalbetti+Campbell
www.montalbetticampbell.com
larryg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 468



WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 04:41:48 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Hi
From hands on experience upgrade to the 1DsMKIII body. We have both the 5D & 1DsMKIII. We entered digital in 2000 manly through MFD & have been that way until a few months ago. Now the Canon will be a big part of our photography. We also use Mamiya & will stay that way as we have a few lenses including the ZD camera which I have had for 2 years & really enjoyed using it. I have a friend who is looking at MFD & I think will go with the 1DsMKIII in the end. Personally I would look at the Aptus 75s if I were going to buy a back. Great speed 1.1/fs & amazing file quality or look @ Phase One & Sinar. Rent a MFD kit to try to see if you like the feel of it. For me the big advantage of Mamiya is: it is light weight, affordable & has a lens range from 28 to 300 mm.

Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188036\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I sold my Mf   (Contax 645 and P25 Phase back last year)  It is such a volatile environment and I just couldn't justify trying to keep up (also tired of buying equipment that either became obsolete almost immediately or the camera system discontinued)  I know this is the way it is etc. etc.

I ordered and received the Canon 1ds MK III and am hoping it wll do a decent job compared to what I did with the mf  P25

Things are probably going to be as chaotic with mf as it has been the last couple of years for the next year or so.

For sure the optimum quality/resolution would be achieved with a mf system with full frame sensor.
Logged
amsp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 788


« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 05:22:13 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I sold my Mf   (Contax 645 and P25 Phase back last year)  It is such a volatile environment and I just couldn't justify trying to keep up (also tired of buying equipment that either became obsolete almost immediately or the camera system discontinued)  I know this is the way it is etc. etc.

I ordered and received the Canon 1ds MK III and am hoping it wll do a decent job compared to what I did with the mf  P25

Things are probably going to be as chaotic with mf as it has been the last couple of years for the next year or so.

For sure the optimum quality/resolution would be achieved with a mf system with full frame sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why did you feel such a need to keep up? That Contax and P25 would have provided the same amazing quality photos for another 10 years at least. I will probably update my P25 sometime in the future, I mean DB will continue to evolve, but I feel no rush whatsoever. For now it still provides me much better images than I ever got with film and larger files than you really need for most jobs.

I don't get this whole upgrade hysteria, just because there are new models coming out doesn't mean your old camera is taking any less capable photos than before. People have been creating great images for a 100 years without whatever camera is coming out tomorrow.
Logged
rethmeier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 780


WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 07:19:04 PM »
ReplyReply

I totally agree with that last statement.
I intend to use my Hy6 with the eMotion-75LV as long it does it's job.
The files are still superior than any DSLR.
Also,I like shooting with a MF camera.
It slows me down and I find that more suitable for my line of work.
Each to it's own.
Cheers,
Willem.
Logged

Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com
Sydney Australia
Leonardo Barreto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 379



WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 09:13:31 PM »
ReplyReply

I got a p25 about a year and half, paid $14k for a used but like new back and I see no need to replace it. I compare it to the RZ that it replaced and it is smaller, has AF etc etc. (I only use the assisted AF) If I was going to spend money I would get me a DIGITAR 28mm and an ALPA or CAMBO .

I think that a back like mine can be found for what? 12k ? It is depreciating, but if I had to pay $500/day rents it would cost more.

A p25 type back has the largest sensor with widest sensel in production -I think-, you can get more "megapixels", but at the expense of smaller photon collection wells...
Logged

The important thing is not to stop questioning---Albert Einstein.
My Webpage/LeonardoBarreto.com
Leonardo Barreto alamy
Plekto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 551


« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 02:36:09 PM »
ReplyReply

I'd wait a year or so and see what Fuji and Foveon do with their sensors - if they come out with a lower cost MF back. Right now, I get the feeling that we're due for another leap in resolution and lower cost, what with 12 and soon 16MP 35mm pocket cameras being available for so little money.

When a Canon 35mm can be bought with a 20MP sensor, a 20MP digital back seems kind of behind the times.  It's only a matter of time before the consumer camera companies blow open the door to the MF makers' little monopoly.

Even the top model Leaf is only 33MP.  Yes, it's a lot of pixels, but it's just a tiny bit more resolution than the Canon's sensor.  It's all relative, and Canon is catching up fast.

7216 x 5412 pixels. 39MP Phase One (insane money)
6726 x 5040 pixels. 33MP Leaf (insane money)
5488 x 4145 pixels  22MP Phase One P25 (also insane money)
5616 x 3744 pixels. 21MP Canon (easily affordable)

If you can wait, I fully expect to see $5000 or less 30-40MP backs in a year or so.  I get about 5600*4400 or so, or ~25MP - just by Canon using their existing sensor and making it 400-500 pixels taller.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 06:46:02 PM by Plekto » Logged
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 03:00:17 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Even the top model Leaf is only 33MP.  Yes, it's a lot of pixels, but it's just a tiny bit more resolution than the Canon's sensor.  It's all relative, and Canon is catching up fast.

Not really. They are hitting a wall. The lenses are not going to be good enough. The viewfinder is too small. They still have a slow flash sync issue. They don't have the quality colours and dynamic range either. If you measure IQ in terms of megapixels only, then be my guest

Quote
If you can wait, I fully expect to see $5000 or less 30-40MP backs in a year or so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Never going to happen in that time frame. Just look at the historical prices. What you are predicting is a major change in the curve, and for what reason? The production cost issues will remain the same.
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
paul_jones
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 565


WWW
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 04:11:48 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Not really. They are hitting a wall. The lenses are not going to be good enough. The viewfinder is too small. They still have a slow flash sync issue. They don't have the quality colours and dynamic range either. If you measure IQ in terms of megapixels only, then be my guest
Never going to happen in that time frame. Just look at the historical prices. What you are predicting is a major change in the curve, and for what reason? The production cost issues will remain the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i have a 1ds mk3 and an h1, put them up to your eye straght after each other and you will find the view finder exactly the same. actually the canon has even more width to the frame.

i have to agree about the lenses, but only wider than 35mm are not quite as sharp. the 35 1.4, 50 1.2 80 1.2 and 2.8 200 are razer sharp.

the 14 bit of the canon files are a marked improvement in pulling out detail in the highlights, and can handle a pretty strong twist in curves before it breaks up. not sure if its as good as a medium format back, but i think its heaps better than the mk2.

the major problem with the canon, is that the frame needs to be cropped quite a bit to fit a std page format. so its 21 mp ends up being about 17 or less mp when it gets cropped for ads. and being a softer file to start with (due to its anti aliasing filter) it wont stand as much upsizing as a 22mp back (the mp of back  i have the most experience with).

paul
Logged

check my new website
http://www.paulrossjones.com
paul_jones
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 565


WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2008, 04:20:26 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
If you can wait, I fully expect to see $5000 or less 30-40MP backs in a year or so.  I get about 5600*4400 or so, or ~25MP - just by using in the existing sensor and making it 400-500 pixels taller.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


cant see that much of a price jump happening. maybe a small drop in prices, but i just dont think they sell enough volume to price low.

i cant wait untill the backs dont improve so much with each generation, so they are close to the top of the development curve. so when you buy a back, it would have a good 5 years life in them (i think we are close with the recent backs). i remember the days when i assisted and photographers had sometimes 100k in sinar gear. and that was even more of an investment than now, but they got 10-20 years use out of this gear. so the investment per year wasnt that bad.
i wouldnt have any issue investing in gear that had a long life. i would even like to have two of everything for safe redundancy, but thats not practical at the moment.


paul
Logged

check my new website
http://www.paulrossjones.com
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2008, 04:24:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
i have a 1ds mk3 and an h1, put them up to your eye straght after each other and you will find the view finder exactly the same. actually the canon has even more width to the frame.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's been ages since I used an H, so I can't comment. I'm using a Rollei 6008 with WLF and loop. Just lovely to work with.
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2008, 04:30:17 PM »
ReplyReply

Sometimes funny to see that so many are thinking the 1DsIII is so close the MFDB and that MFDB will come down significantly because of that.

I hear people tell me they will wait until that moment before they buy MFDB. If the 1DsIII is so close why wait? just buy the Canon now.

Personally I believe MFDB will come down though not as far as many seem to think. A small improvement at the top of the curves always has come at a significantly higher price point.

I simply don't understand the constant need to compare the Canon with MFDB? Isn't the Canon good enough on its own or can its quality only be assessed by comparing it to something else as long as the outcome is close or better?

I use a multitude of different bodies, I use the ones I prefer most for that type of work. As long as it delivers the quality I am after I don't really long or look for something else. If I would have wanted a Canon I would have bought one. I don't get the competitive comparisons that seem to be necessary all the time.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 04:36:18 PM by Dustbak » Logged
paul_jones
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 565


WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2008, 04:37:50 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Sometimes funny to see that so many are thinking the 1DsIII is so close the MFDB and that MFDB will come down significantly because of that.

I hear people tell me they will wait until that moment before they buy MFDB. If the 1DsIII is so close why wait? just buy the Canon now.

Personally I believe MFDB will come down though not as far as many seem to think. A small improvement at the top of the curves always has come at a significantly higher price point.

I simply don't understand the constant need to compare the Canon with MFDB? Isn't the Canon good enough on its own or can its quality only be assessed by comparing it to something else as long as the outcome is close or better?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188293\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


they are still completely different tools.

right now, the canon is an absolute joke to use tethered on comersal shoots. canon software sux beyond belief, and usb on a mac is really, really slow. i shoot a few frames, then the whole shoot stops while the buffer clears. this makes it almost unusable if you need to shoot with any of the canons speed.

i have used it tethered, but have given up now. digi backs work far better for tethered.

the canons better than it has been, but its a completey different animal.

paul
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 04:39:52 PM by paul_jones » Logged

check my new website
http://www.paulrossjones.com
Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2008, 04:41:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Exactly. I shoot over 50K of shots tethered every year. I love my backs for this type of work.

When I travel I like taking my Nikon, now that is the part where I sometimes wished I would have gone for Canon  But in that case the Nikon works for me, delivers a quality that does the job and I really like the handling of the Nikons. You (well I do) get attached to something after having used it from age 13 even though I am sure I can make Canon work for me as well.

I reckon it still is not only horses for courses but also a really personal preference of how you do the things you do.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 04:45:03 PM by Dustbak » Logged
Plekto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 551


« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2008, 07:01:43 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Sometimes funny to see that so many are thinking the 1DsIII is so close the MFDB and that MFDB will come down significantly because of that.

I hear people tell me they will wait until that moment before they buy MFDB. If the 1DsIII is so close why wait? just buy the Canon now.

Personally I believe MFDB will come down though not as far as many seem to think. A small improvement at the top of the curves always has come at a significantly higher price point.

My main point was that eventually, and within at least the next 4-5 years, 20MP consumer pocket cameras will be available.  Digital SLRs will all be in the 20-40MP range... and the cost of the sensors will be a few hundred dollars of that cost.  that will drive the price for  MF backs right down.   It may not be $5K, but it will be a lot less than $20K.

Now, the MF backs will go into the 30-100MP range by then in an ever-increasing MP war, but as you said, the optics won't do much better than 20-30MP anyways, so win-win for most of us.

Things have kind of stood still for the last year or so, but I expect Canon and the others to start trying to enter the MF market soon.  I can't imagine Foveon not coming out with a digital back soon.  

Re: Canon:

What Canon needs to do and might do soon is enlarge their existing sensor to be a nice 5600X5600 square.  Then you can crop it and not lose quality. Same sensor as in the SLR, just about 1/4 of its pixels taller(easily doable, really).  MF results in a 35mm body - totally blur the distinction between 35mm and MF.  Probably call it "35 Squared"(with the little squared symbol) or something.
Logged
jecxz
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 377


WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2008, 07:13:42 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
i have a 1ds mk3 and an h1, put them up to your eye straght after each other and you will find the view finder exactly the same. actually the canon has even more width to the frame.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think so.

Quote
What Canon needs to do and might do soon is enlarge their existing sensor to be a nice 5600X5600 square.  Then you can crop it and not lose quality. Same sensor as in the SLR, just about 1/4 of its pixels taller(easily doable, really).  MF results in a 35mm body - totally blur the distinction between 35mm and MF.  Probably call it "35 Squared"(with the little squared symbol) or something.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188320\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you enlarge the sensor the Canon lenses would need to be changed to match the increase. Be well.
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad