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Author Topic: P1 P30 vs Sinar E22  (Read 16098 times)
hobbsr
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« on: April 11, 2008, 06:28:13 AM »
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Hi All,

I am new to the forum and new to the discussion regarding medium format and digital backs. I shoot mainly weddings and some fine art work. I have a Mamiya 645 AFDII and have the option of two backs:

1. A reburb Phase One P30 or a Sinar new emotion e22

I have tried to do my research and seem only to find much more information and feedback about the P30. The P30 seems to have two main benefits higher resolution and higher iso, I can also think that the files are more widely supported as well.

Can people provide me some further insight to how to make the best decision as they are both roughly the same price. Any example files would also be great as would like to know higher iso performance.

Regards

Rodney
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 06:57:38 AM »
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The P30 seems to have two main benefits higher resolution and higher iso, I can also think that the files are more widely supported as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188670\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can't comment on the high ISO performance from personal experience but I expect the P30 has the lead there. I was using the e22 until upgrading to an e54LV recently.

Sinar's new software saves raw files in DNG format so actually its files are now the most supported of any platform.

The P30 also uses a smaller sensor than the e22 which means:
- there is a higher crop factor (i.e. your lenses become slighly more 'tele')
- the viewfinder image is also more cropped

Other advantages of the e22 are:

- it has a lot of solid state memory built in. This means you can usually get away without using CF cards at all
- it uses an adapter system for camera mounts which means you can use the same back on multiple platforms
- it does not use microlenses so it is better suited to use on a view camera

I once compared LCD screen with my friend's P30 and we both preferred the e22's screen although there is definitely room for improvement there.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 09:57:21 AM »
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i was working long time with the e22 before going with the e75.
its a great back without many shortcomings.
base iso is 25 and this delivers the best quality.
iso 100 is still usable but much noisier esp. in the shadows.
exposure times are possible with good quality up to 20 - 30 seconds ( without noise ), but this depends also on the weather. in really hot environments this can decrease.

color shifts over the sensor field are marginal with the e22, this is better than with the p30 or also than with the newer e75, its no problem to use the e22 without white calibration files.
anyway, many if not most people dont use also with their other backs never white calibrations with mf cameras if they shoot untethered, although i wouldnt do that with the p30/45, a75 or e75.
 
for the even color reproduction of the e22 its a very good sensor for architecture photography, where mostly shift lenses are required.
in case of the e22 the shifted lens shows just marginal color shifts, so its possible to shoot with this sensor  without individual white calibrations,- although this still is the better way.

in general the 22mp sensor from dalsa was one of the best sensors,  in the sinar backs as well as in the leaf backs.  its biggest shortcoming is some hypersensitivity to mixed tungsten lights, especially to fluorescent light sources.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 10:01:06 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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TMARK
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 12:31:37 PM »
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I say P30 for ISO 400.

If you shoot weddings I would assume you need better than ISO 25.  That Dalsa chip is wonderful but it requires lots of light to acheive that quality.  The P30 should be good at 400.

I would recomend a 1ds3 of 5D for weddings, or a used 1ds2.  Then I would take the savings and buy a ZD back for fine art.  The ZD is wonderfully capable if not slow and clunky, which is fine for fine art applications.


Finally, where are you seeing new E22's for the price of a refurb P30?  I was looking for an E22 when I bought my P30+.  I couldn't find a new or refurb E22.

T
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amsp
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 03:22:04 PM »
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P30, no question about it.
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BJNY
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 07:20:46 PM »
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Solid posts, Rainer + TMARK.
Non-sugarcoated, real-world info is getting harder to come by.
Respect,
Billy
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 08:23:07 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
hobbsr
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 07:24:46 PM »
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Thanks for the comments so far.

I understand that for the many situations on a wedding day that a DSLR approach as I use today will give the best coverage, the key is to try and find an aspect that makes my work different as everyone can now buy 5D's and D300 and even D3's including guests our work as professionals always has to be better. Of course the craft is key and we can also do alot in post production.

Over recent time I have moved from the Canon 1d's to Fuji S5's which has been great for colour and dynamic range in the DSLR space. Now the D3 is the deal breaker but I have experimented with going to Leica M8's and this is where the MF question has come from.

My feeling is that the P30 will give a better range of iso performance and with the extra resolution this should also help the files to be great for any post work and cropping. So at this stage the P30 seems to be the direction I am moving.

Any sample files of what iso 400 or 800 looks like on a P30 would be great.

Regards

Rodney
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ddk
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2008, 03:06:52 PM »
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i was working long time with the e22 before going with the e75.
its a great back without many shortcomings.
base iso is 25 and this delivers the best quality.
iso 100 is still usable but much noisier esp. in the shadows.
exposure times are possible with good quality up to 20 - 30 seconds ( without noise ), but this depends also on the weather. in really hot environments this can decrease.

color shifts over the sensor field are marginal with the e22, this is better than with the p30 or also than with the newer e75, its no problem to use the e22 without white calibration files.
anyway, many if not most people dont use also with their other backs never white calibrations with mf cameras if they shoot untethered, although i wouldnt do that with the p30/45, a75 or e75.
 
for the even color reproduction of the e22 its a very good sensor for architecture photography, where mostly shift lenses are required.
in case of the e22 the shifted lens shows just marginal color shifts, so its possible to shoot with this sensor  without individual white calibrations,- although this still is the better way.

in general the 22mp sensor from dalsa was one of the best sensors,  in the sinar backs as well as in the leaf backs.  its biggest shortcoming is some hypersensitivity to mixed tungsten lights, especially to fluorescent light sources.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Rainer,

Your post is of interest to me since both Sinar & Leaf use the same chip set. I'm trying to decide between the Leaf 54S & the 75S my feeling is that I should get better color, contrast, DR and shadow detail from the 54S because of the larger photo-sites. Am I correct in this assumption? Also what do you mean by color shift with the 75? I don't know need the larger files if there's a penalty in other areas.

david
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 03:08:04 PM by ddk » Logged

david
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rainer_v
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2008, 05:33:15 PM »
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Hi Rainer,

Your post is of interest to me since both Sinar & Leaf use the same chip set. I'm trying to decide between the Leaf 54S & the 75S my feeling is that I should get better color, contrast, DR and shadow detail from the 54S because of the larger photo-sites. Am I correct in this assumption? Also what do you mean by color shift with the 75? I don't know need the larger files if there's a penalty in other areas.

david
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i think that the assumption that larger photo-sites ALLWAYS have to bring better results than smaller photo-sites is missleading, because you have to see the time when the chips have been designed.
in case of the emotion22/54 and the e75 this isnt true, i would believe that its the same for the leaf54/75, although i havent worked with the 54.
the 33mp dalsa chip ( used in the leaf and sinar 33mp backs ) is the successor of the 22mp chip
( used in the leaf and sinar 22mp backs ). i wouldnt say that the 22mp is the better chip, althoug it was/is a very good  design i.m.o.
sensitivity is higher ( 1 stop ) with the 33mp chip, DR is the same more or less, tungsten/mixed- light rendering is much better in the 33mp chip, color shift about the image field is slightly better with the 22 mp chip ( but thats the onliest thing i am aware where the little chip is better ).
this shouldnt be that important if you work with a mf camera as with the HY, and in case of use with a system as the alpa or cambo ( or gittschalt ) with shift lenses i would recommend in any case to shoot with white reference files each shot, to create 100% grey uniformity over the image field, which is forme not an option, its a must ......
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 05:37:30 PM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2008, 06:43:12 PM »
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i think that the assumption that larger photo-sites ALLWAYS have to bring better results than smaller photo-sites is missleading, because you have to see the time when the chips have been designed.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, for one thing the fill factor must be considered.

[a href=\"http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/products/dsc.asp]http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/products/dsc.asp[/url]
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ddk
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2008, 09:32:32 PM »
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i think that the assumption that larger photo-sites ALLWAYS have to bring better results than smaller photo-sites is missleading, because you have to see the time when the chips have been designed.
in case of the emotion22/54 and the e75 this isnt true, i would believe that its the same for the leaf54/75, although i havent worked with the 54.
the 33mp dalsa chip ( used in the leaf and sinar 33mp backs ) is the successor of the 22mp chip
( used in the leaf and sinar 22mp backs ). i wouldnt say that the 22mp is the better chip, althoug it was/is a very good  design i.m.o.
sensitivity is higher ( 1 stop ) with the 33mp chip, DR is the same more or less, tungsten/mixed- light rendering is much better in the 33mp chip, color shift about the image field is slightly better with the 22 mp chip ( but thats the onliest thing i am aware where the little chip is better ).
this shouldnt be that important if you work with a mf camera as with the HY, and in case of use with a system as the alpa or cambo ( or gittschalt ) with shift lenses i would recommend in any case to shoot with white reference files each shot, to create 100% grey uniformity over the image field, which is forme not an option, its a must ......
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190029\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thank you Rainer & Graham for your input. I guess the big thing here is the extra sensitivity of the 75s. I tend to shoot natural light most of the time, both indoors and outdoors but hardly ever in a studio so the extra stop is important to me. Any information on the quality of the files at iso 100 to 200 that you can give is appreciated, ie how much quality loss and noise compared to base iso. I shoot nudes so shadow detail/quality and skin tones are both important. Please keep in mind that my Photoshop skills aren't like Graham's!
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david
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2008, 10:08:16 PM »
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Another good thing about the eMotions is that Sinar is going to replace the viewers on the backs to a larger and better one.
This will be available at a cost of course.
This was told yesterday by my Sinar agent here in Sydney.
More ways to get rid of my $(LOL)
Best,
WR.
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 09:37:21 AM »
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Willem,
Thierry posted more info at:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php...03&postcount=58
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Guillermo
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2008, 10:15:58 AM »
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sounds as a really good price point for a larger lacd, new electronic AND the revolving adaper...
"around Euro 1'850.- (including the revolving adapter)".
is this right? surprising .....
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rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2008, 10:29:07 AM »
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hi Rainer,

yes, right = recommended enduser price for the eMotion 75 LV upgrade, including the revolving adapter, valid as per NOW and until May 31st 2008. thereafter about 30% more.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
sounds as a really good price point for a larger lacd, new electronic AND the revolving adaper...
"around Euro 1'850.- (including the revolving adapter)".
is this right? surprising .....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2008, 11:43:02 AM »
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It's quite interesting that many have considered Sinar to be the most likely candidate to exit the playing field. Understandable, due to Sinar's position in marketshare.

But this really signals to me that Sinar is very much a player, and perhaps now the little dark horse candidate, the underdog, if you will, coming out of left field where no one was looking.

As a company, Sinar still faces some challenges and shortcomings, as do all the medium format manufacturing participants. But there are many positives about their products:

- traditionally very reliable
- flexible with user-changeable camera interface kits
- involved for years with advanced multi-shot & live video technology
- providers of well integrated turn key digital view camera systems
- innovators with new medium format digital camera systems

I've always had mixed feelings about the eMotions (mixed eMotions?). Great concept with the built-in storage, great image quality, somewhat confusing (at first) menu system, really bad LCD (OLED) display screen.

Now with a good display, with new and improved software, with DNG as a native raw format, I think this product deserves a serious look from anyone who is considering flexible, portable medium format digial solutions.

This is a positive development for Sinar, and for prospects for medium/large format digital solutions.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2008, 04:51:53 PM »
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Thierry,
that's great news!
I'll be putting my order in with Nicki today.
Cheers,
Willem.
N.B.I've also taken delivery of my Hy6.
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Willem Rethmeier
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2008, 05:11:02 PM »
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N.B.I've also taken delivery of my Hy6.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Finally! Congrats
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