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Author Topic: ColorMunki  (Read 118217 times)
avitch
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« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2008, 09:28:49 PM »
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Since I trashed the ColorMunki in an earlier post, I thought I'd share my experiences so far with ColorMunki software 1.05.

In short, the device is finally working as advertised on my Vista Home Premium system. The monitor profile is fine, the printer profiles are fine. I haven't tested extensively yet, but the device is working well enough to make further experimentation worthwhile, and that was not the case before.  Based on initial results, I expect the devise will do everything I need it to do.

My eye-one unit will be on sale shortly!

Adam
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vandevanterSH
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« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2008, 09:47:48 PM »
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Quote from: avitch
Since I trashed the ColorMunki in an earlier post, I thought I'd share my experiences so far with ColorMunki software 1.05.

In short, the device is finally working as advertised on my Vista Home Premium system. The monitor profile is fine, the printer profiles are fine. I haven't tested extensively yet, but the device is working well enough to make further experimentation worthwhile, and that was not the case before.  Based on initial results, I expect the devise will do everything I need it to do.

My eye-one unit will be on sale shortly!

Adam

A refreshing and useful post.  

Steve
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avitch
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« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2008, 09:47:52 AM »
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Another update ...

Though the display profile generate by ColorMunki are now fine, those profiles are still not fully compatible with Vista's ICM color engine. As a result, applications that plug into that engine display images incorrectly. This includes Photo Mechanic and Vista's built in image viewer. Photoshop and Lightroom use their own color engine, and as a result, images display as they should in those apps.

As a work around, I've turned color management off in Photo Mechanic, where, for my purposes at least, color accuracy is not important. I don't normally use Vista's built in image viewer, so issues with that app are irrelevant.

Though manageable, the ongoing issues between ColorMunki and Vista are frustrating. X-Rite's Match software produces display profiles that work perfectly well with Vista. Why would the ColorMunki software, which is newer, have this issue? - even after the software update?

Something in X-Rite's software development process is badly amiss.

Adam
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avitch
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« Reply #103 on: November 12, 2008, 01:01:06 PM »
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Here is the reply I received from X-Rite support after describing the problem:

"This issue is something that our development team is currently working on. The reason for the incompatibility is that the Windows platform, in particular Vista and Vista SP1, are not compatible with version 4 ICC profiles.  The i1 Match and the i1 Products that use this software have the ability to generate version 2 ICC profiles which is why you are not seeing the incompatilbility issue.  

This is being address with a future release to the software once the development team completes further testing."
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2008, 04:59:59 PM »
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Quote from: avitch
Here is the reply I received from X-Rite support after describing the problem:

"This issue is something that our development team is currently working on. The reason for the incompatibility is that the Windows platform, in particular Vista and Vista SP1, are not compatible with version 4 ICC profiles.  The i1 Match and the i1 Products that use this software have the ability to generate version 2 ICC profiles which is why you are not seeing the incompatilbility issue.  

This is being address with a future release to the software once the development team completes further testing."
Sounds like a load of bull to me. I don't have a Colormunki, but I have had no problems at all using ICC v4 profiles under Vista x64 Ultimate. I use Eizo Color Navigotor for display profiling and Eye One Match 3.6.2 for printer profiling, both generate v4 profiles.

Maybe there's something specific to the way the Colormunki software is generating the profiles that causes the problem.
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kdphotography
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« Reply #105 on: November 13, 2008, 06:30:12 PM »
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Quote from: avitch
Here is the reply I received from X-Rite support after describing the problem:

"This issue is something that our development team is currently working on. The reason for the incompatibility is that the Windows platform, in particular Vista and Vista SP1, are not compatible with version 4 ICC profiles.  The i1 Match and the i1 Products that use this software have the ability to generate version 2 ICC profiles which is why you are not seeing the incompatilbility issue.  

This is being address with a future release to the software once the development team completes further testing."

I am having similar difficulties (I believe) with CM and Capture 1 Pro.  X-rite's CM customer service is responsive but has not resolved my situation.  I am running Windows Vista Ultimate.  Printer profiles from CM are good, but I can't profile my monitor well----at least not for a profile that Capture 1 Pro can use.... I am told that Capture 1 Pro 3.78 doesn't work with icc version 4, and it appears the new Capture 1 Pro 4 also does not.  It appears that the image highlights are totally blown and details gone.  Color is off as well.  When the image is adjusted to bring exposure and details back----the main subject in the image is then much too dark.  I am told a CM software update to work with version 2 icc profiles will be needed.

Does anyone have a suitable workaround or suggestions??
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agood214
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« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2008, 09:39:50 AM »
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I am new to color managagement - but not to software engineering and release having done support, engineering, test and release since 1982 in the retail and enterprise space.

I think I am one of the CM's target market segments being a part time wedding and portrait photographer.
I am using an Epson  Stylus pro 3800.

Downloading and installing version 1.05 and using it as my base install on a Vista home premium, x64 SP1  system here are my observations:

1. monitor profiles do not stick, they disapper after UAC or on resume from S3 standby.
This has been a known issue since at least mid 2007, based on threads across multiple boards and product lines.
X-rites supports commnets - " it's a Vista issue - not our problem".
I've temporarily solved it by placing the CM gamma icon on my desktop and after resume rerunning it.

2. Per CM support the patch reading process is iterative and there are rounding errors on each successive pass of reading.
they have no hard and fast rule - surprise -! but I have been told that no more that four or five at most optimizations can be read without inducing errors.

I have a profile that has gone far green blue - at eight optimizations using Epson Ultra Premium Photo Luster

3. I am used to a customer is right attitude or a don't care attitiude, but typically support being helpful,  off the bat and from the beginning I have to say they have referred me to online forums - here in specific, told me to go buy their three thousand dollar solution, and then go puchase training and support from then, all for profiling Crane museo rag and the above Epson pper - what a crock ! they have been quite antagonistic maybe they have knowledge - but interaction of some tech support stinks to put it mildly.

4. the profiles generated are not visible in the Epson control panel version 6.50 under vista x64 the answer I got after switching technicians after 5 email rounds was that Epson does not read version 4 of the ICC profiles - although photoshop, LR, Qimage all seem to just fine.

Overall I would not recommend this product to anyone who was not aware of the technical hurdles and problems in this segment of the industry, compared to support from Canon, Epson, DDI, or about any other vendor I've seen this was quite poor.

The profiless seem to get rid of some of the color casts - but definitely go very flat in the shadow details  - any ideas how to bring this  to a slightly better state ?
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kdphotography
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« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2008, 12:19:00 PM »
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Quote from: agood214
3. I am used to a customer is right attitude or a don't care attitiude, but typically support being helpful,  off the bat and from the beginning I have to say they have referred me to online forums - here in specific, told me to go buy their three thousand dollar solution, and then go puchase training and support from then, all for profiling Crane museo rag and the above Epson pper - what a crock ! they have been quite antagonistic maybe they have knowledge - but interaction of some tech support stinks to put it mildly.


The "workaround" that I was advised by x-rite CM customer service was:  "Stop using Capture One Pro."

This is unacceptable.

The second alternative they offered me was to buy yet another monitor profiling system (i1Display2), but at a discount, to use with the CM, and until a software patch solution was generated (if ever) to work with both ICC version 2.

Somehow, I just don't feel it is right to "reward" the company by having to buy yet another product from them, just to make the original product (Munki) work as they have initially represented.  Over $400 dollars spent on the CM, doesn't work as advertised for me, and no returns.  Real nice.

I'm leaning towards dumping X-rite completely and going with the Datacolor Spyder3Elite solutions if a better alternative doesn't present itself shortly.
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agood214
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« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2008, 11:22:55 PM »
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Quote from: kdphotography
The "workaround" that I was advised by x-rite CM customer service was:  "Stop using Capture One Pro."

This is unacceptable.

The second alternative they offered me was to buy yet another monitor profiling system (i1Display2), but at a discount, to use with the CM, and until a software patch solution was generated (if ever) to work with both ICC version 2.

Somehow, I just don't feel it is right to "reward" the company by having to buy yet another product from them, just to make the original product (Munki) work as they have initially represented.  Over $400 dollars spent on the CM, doesn't work as advertised for me, and no returns.  Real nice.

I'm leaning towards dumping X-rite completely and going with the Datacolor Spyder3Elite solutions if a better alternative doesn't present itself shortly.


I agree with your general sentiment - the amazing thing has been the utter and total arrogance exhibited that bordered on plain hostility, well now I'm hostile.. and I'm usually able to put up with a lot from flaky drivers and know nothing tech support.
The problem here is they do know something about color  and I do respect that, - but literally X-rite thinks that there is not a single solitary problelm with thier product and that you should be grateful to have it.

I fist called them as I became concerned while waiting for the ColorMunki as some threads had commented on the vagueness of the instructions  - asking what the exact steps were to turn off color managment for my printer. There are three major manufacturers Canon, HP, and Epson,  There are two operatings systems and a few variants - if you laid out a table and multiplied it by versions of drivers it's probably about 48 or so maximum that would cover 90% or better of the target market - truth be told probalby 16 screenshots / Kb  articles would probalbby cover 99%, so I thought hey - just e-mail me the KB becaue I could not find it on your site........

Oh heck no, instead I started getting a rahter snooty lecture from the tech support guy on how this was not thier responsibility and impossible to do. I am sorry - in 4 weeks or less and documentation writer - or technical support staff could have knocked this out.
Besides any compotent quality assurance staff would have done this testing already and just could have taken the screeenshots and passed them along to a writer.

I should have just returned the device then, but I kept plugging along... figuring that all this great hoopla would show how great the device is.

The ColorMunki has defects in its USB driver were coming out of S3/ S4 hybrid standby it wont always be recognized on multiple different hubs and directs connects - instead of working with me X-rite has ignored me.

The device appears to not have any way to increase the accuracy of its black and white printing - or the gray tones - which so many of us with multiple inksets native in the printer for black and white printing want to use.

This was the quoted reccomendation,"You may also find that you are aiming at a result that would typically require the feature set of our professional level programs, Monaco Profiler or ProfileMaker."

Some more from X-rite support:
4: Profile adjustment and editing is not something that is central to the ColorMunki feature set. The types of prints that you are attempting to do are very specialized and grayscale profiles are not specifically addressed by the program. Many fine art companies have devoted considerable effort to create grayscale procedures for users such as yourself. I'd suggest checking out Nash Editions, or Luminous Landscape to see what suggestions they can provide.

 =================================
WHAT Huh
Bruce - can you please clarify this statement you are telling me that CM cannot be used to make professional level prints, either color nor greyscale and are recommending I go look on BBS's for support ??

You indicate you are using Qimage for printing. Our support department will have no information on this program, and although it might well produce excellent results, we would recommend contacting their support department for any print related issues.
====================================


So X-rite doesn't support the product with screenshots or workarounds to known issues , there are rounding errors that mean that a profile cannot be optimized more than some unknown unset standard,  Drying times for full color maturity will not be something that X-Rite will provide any specific guidance on. X-rite's software is involved with making profiles, and we provided the suggestion that you increase your drying time based on the findings of many end users who report that their profiles improved on some papers when they left them to dry longer. You are free to make the call for your papers and length of time needed. Further information may be obtained from Epson, Crane or other paper manufacturers.

hey it's my three cents.- or more like four hundred dollars plus a box of crane rag and Epson paper - ouch.
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gianfini
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« Reply #109 on: November 26, 2008, 06:51:54 AM »
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Quote from: agood214
The profiless seem to get rid of some of the color casts - but definitely go very flat in the shadow details  - any ideas how to bring this  to a slightly better state ?

The profiles are pretty accurate in mid-high tones. Although I cannot get the greens right in any of my Ilford papers, and it's not a gamut problem because monitor gamut is similar to the printers in greens but I get different colors (bit more acid greens on print)

You are totally right about the shadow details. The munki has two behavior about shadows
- on certain papers (esp. glossy - high glossy) it closes the shadows to amost dark, loosing details
- on other papers (es. semi-matte, pearl) it generates mushy shadows almost completely discolored (color get out from shadowy areas, especially red-orange: creating problems in low-key portrait for example)

I tried by optimization on dark tones and I got some slight improvement but not enough. And after the 5th optimization the profile "dies".

The tools is good, the software is ridiculous, I hope Basic ICC or similar third party will support the Munki hardware asap.

g
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neil snape
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« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2008, 11:51:32 AM »
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Back to page 4 or so and there are some reports of problems with DDC. I am seeing a loss of DDC on any computer I've installed the CM software. I can't understand what is going on as I've even clean installed both 10.4.11 and 10.5, and the restore discs for Mac.
Something is changing the DDC feedback. HAs anyone some experience with changing the DDC tags back on a Mac?
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