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Author Topic: ColorMunki  (Read 119083 times)
melgross
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« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2008, 04:09:57 PM »
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In this business we usually trust an instrument after it's been around for about one year, and samples have been dropped, exposed to the attentions of cats, dogs, small children and early adopters.  During that time we run comparisons, and wait for our colleagues to run comparisons. I see no reason to change this advocacy just because this product is cheaper than the ones we usually deal with.

 I would recommend that anyone with a decent budget stay with the true and tested albeit more expensive EyeOne Pro for the time being. Let the pro testers like Andrew and Keith be the kids with the new and shiny toys. Their superior intellect, tireless patience and selfless commitment to the progress of color-management warrants that they be allowed their place in the front lines.

Edmund

PS. I guess the EyeOne is the better instrument any way - at least that's what the guys who make them told me
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fortunately, I didn't have small animals, or children wandering around (except when someone had to bring their kid in for a day) my lab

I often did testing for manufacturers, so I'm used to beta hardware and software. Doesn't mean I want to use it at home all the time.

I still have my Fuji Pictography with the X-Rite AutoScan Spectrophotometer, but that's of little use here, sadly.

I haven't used the EyeOne.

I still have my old, non working with OS X Colortron.
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bjnicholls
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« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2008, 02:29:25 PM »
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>>Indeed, the ColorMunki is nice hardware, made by a very good company. And yes, I'll still recommend that anyone who can afford it go for EyeOne, for at least the next 6 months until the software is fully stable. In 6 months I'll recommend ColorMunki warmly to all my friends. In the mean time EyeOne is a known quantity. I guess I'm old now and conservative.<<

I just got the ColorMunki Design and I'm very disappointed with the function and instalation so far. The software is really not ready for prime time. The package included instructions for an online link for registration that's simply wrong (registration and download of accessory software is done via the software setup screen).

I uninstalled my i1Match software before installing the Colormunki application. I'm not sure the unistaller worked since the Colormunki tray application seems balky and it may be conflicting with the old i1 profile installer and reminder. I can't see those set to load, but I know the profile reminder application still lives on the drive because it ran with errors after I did a system restore.

The display profiler is stuck in a loop of light gray to dark gray. Initially the profiling ran through color samples, but that calibration failed partway through the measurements and left me with a dark, dim display. I'm running ATI FireGL cards with dual LUTs and my dual NEC2190UXi displays may well support hardware profiling. The Colormunki may be puking over specific hardware, but it will be a major pain figuring this out. The X-Rite website has been recently reworked and it has a flash interface with a poor ratio of pretty site to information content ratio. There is no phone contact information for product support and I'm sure I'll need some one-on-one to get this mess working.

I did the early adopter on Colormunki based on my trust of X-Rite. I made a poor decision. I've been through several generations of Monaco and Gretag-Macbeth and X-rite calibration tools and none gave me this kind of complete failure out of the box. The hardware isn't intuitive. You need to be careful not to press the button in the center of the rotating sensor when you're directed to move the sensor to the calibration position or one of the other position. The button does an enter-key command and pressing that at the wrong time confuses the application (not to mention the user). The software has you align the sensor over a target area, but then the entire display area is used for color sample display. At least this software drops the annoying and slow i1 gimmick of locating the sensor prior to running the color samples.

I'm old and conservative too, and my trust of X-Rite to not endanger my productivity is clearly misplaced. I'm going to try uninstalling and reinstalling Colormunki before I plan my attack on X-rite support. It's telling that X-rite has no user forum on their site. I also recommend that anyone looking at Colormunki wait for functional software.
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melgross
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« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2008, 06:18:41 PM »
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>>Indeed, the ColorMunki is nice hardware, made by a very good company. And yes, I'll still recommend that anyone who can afford it go for EyeOne, for at least the next 6 months until the software is fully stable. In 6 months I'll recommend ColorMunki warmly to all my friends. In the mean time EyeOne is a known quantity. I guess I'm old now and conservative.<<

I just got the ColorMunki Design and I'm very disappointed with the function and instalation so far. The software is really not ready for prime time. The package included instructions for an online link for registration that's simply wrong (registration and download of accessory software is done via the software setup screen).

I uninstalled my i1Match software before installing the Colormunki application. I'm not sure the unistaller worked since the Colormunki tray application seems balky and it may be conflicting with the old i1 profile installer and reminder. I can't see those set to load, but I know the profile reminder application still lives on the drive because it ran with errors after I did a system restore.

The display profiler is stuck in a loop of light gray to dark gray. Initially the profiling ran through color samples, but that calibration failed partway through the measurements and left me with a dark, dim display. I'm running ATI FireGL cards with dual LUTs and my dual NEC2190UXi displays may well support hardware profiling. The Colormunki may be puking over specific hardware, but it will be a major pain figuring this out. The X-Rite website has been recently reworked and it has a flash interface with a poor ratio of pretty site to information content ratio. There is no phone contact information for product support and I'm sure I'll need some one-on-one to get this mess working.

I did the early adopter on Colormunki based on my trust of X-Rite. I made a poor decision. I've been through several generations of Monaco and Gretag-Macbeth and X-rite calibration tools and none gave me this kind of complete failure out of the box. The hardware isn't intuitive. You need to be careful not to press the button in the center of the rotating sensor when you're directed to move the sensor to the calibration position or one of the other position. The button does an enter-key command and pressing that at the wrong time confuses the application (not to mention the user). The software has you align the sensor over a target area, but then the entire display area is used for color sample display. At least this software drops the annoying and slow i1 gimmick of locating the sensor prior to running the color samples.

I'm old and conservative too, and my trust of X-Rite to not endanger my productivity is clearly misplaced. I'm going to try uninstalling and reinstalling Colormunki before I plan my attack on X-rite support. It's telling that X-rite has no user forum on their site. I also recommend that anyone looking at Colormunki wait for functional software.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmm!

I think I'll wait a bit longer. So far, the canned profiles seem to be working out ok, even with Galerie and Harman.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 06:19:10 PM by melgross » Logged
alain
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« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2008, 06:25:17 AM »
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Hmm!

I think I'll wait a bit longer. So far, the canned profiles seem to be working out ok, even with Galerie and Harman.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You could also get some custom profiles made.  If it's "only" a few papers it's probably a lot easier to let someone else do the profile making stuff.
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« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2008, 02:42:36 PM »
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Well it was great while it was working, but my Munki just died.  Plugged it back in after the resolving the plugin fiasco and now it seems to have no power (no light) and is not seen by the software.  Apple system profiler does see the Munki on the USB port so I'm not sure what is going on now.  Guess I'll just pack it up and send it back to Xrite.
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I returned the ColorMunki as a defective unit and have a replacement coming tomorrow.  I wanted to remove all of the old CM software before installing the new, but there apparently is no software un-installer.  There is a broken link to an un-installer here:  [a href=\"http://www.xritephoto.com/index.cfm?MenuItemID=464&MenuSubID=70&MenuGroup=Support]http://www.xritephoto.com/index.cfm?MenuIt...nuGroup=Support[/url]
but when I asked CM support they didn't know anything about it and just told me to trash the CM application folder, but how do I get rid of all the orphaned system files?
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keith_cooper
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« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2008, 04:21:26 PM »
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but when I asked CM support they didn't know anything about it and just told me to trash the CM application folder, but how do I get rid of all the orphaned system files?

There was a Mac uninstaller - I've used it when testing (but that was several releases ago and I wouldn't want to try it now)  You should be able to just re-install the software though?

Note that you can only access the preferences through the colorpicker application (??). The preferences are greyed out when you launch the ColorMunki Photo software. You can turn off launch at startup in the prefs.  As to where all the CM bits actually live, I've found quite a few in prefs and some other areas, but I wouldn't want to bet I've caught them all :-)
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« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2008, 04:44:33 PM »
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There was a Mac uninstaller - I've used it when testing (but that was several releases ago and I wouldn't want to try it now)  You should be able to just re-install the software though?

Note that you can only access the preferences through the colorpicker application (??). The preferences are greyed out when you launch the ColorMunki Photo software. You can turn off launch at startup in the prefs.  As to where all the CM bits actually live, I've found quite a few in prefs and some other areas, but I wouldn't want to bet I've caught them all :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Keith.  Too bad the programmers didn't create an un-installer for the end user - I hate digging through library files to weed out the leftovers.  At the very least they should have left an install log text file listing the items installed and the locations (SOP, right?)  Not very professional.  The reason I want to clear this all out is that there is a very nasty bug in there that can only be eliminated by first clearing out all the bits of the previous installation, before reinstalling - at least that is what support passed on to me (this was relative to version 1.0 vs 1.0.1).  The software people knew what bits to get rid of, but they neglected to tell anyone else.  Duh!
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melgross
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« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2008, 01:53:33 AM »
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You could also get some custom profiles made.  If it's "only" a few papers it's probably a lot easier to let someone else do the profile making stuff.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really don't like others doing my work for me. Besides, every time I want to try a new paper, I'd have to pay someone to do a profile. no thanks. I like to try out lots of papers. I just bought a box of lford Galerie smooth Fine Art Paper (100% rag). Another profile. Right now, I'm testing settings, and modding the color output in the driver. Works, but it's a pain. Ilford doesn't support the new Canon IPF x100's, just the older 5000. I sent them a nasty note, after they wrote what I thought was an insult. It was a canned response. No name attached.

Harmon doesn't support the printers either.

No, I've got to be able to do it here, in a reliable way. I'm sure most people here agree that's the way to do it.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 01:55:41 AM by melgross » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2008, 04:45:21 AM »
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I really don't like others doing my work for me. Besides, every time I want to try a new paper, I'd have to pay someone to do a profile. no thanks. I like to try out lots of papers. I just bought a box of lford Galerie smooth Fine Art Paper (100% rag). Another profile. Right now, I'm testing settings, and modding the color output in the driver. Works, but it's a pain. Ilford doesn't support the new Canon IPF x100's, just the older 5000. I sent them a nasty note, after they wrote what I thought was an insult. It was a canned response. No name attached.

Harmon doesn't support the printers either.

No, I've got to be able to do it here, in a reliable way. I'm sure most people here agree that's the way to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

At this point, EyeOne and the new Spyder kit are reliable tested solutions for print profiling, and ColorMunki will probably be very good in about 6 months. I would recommend the EyeOne, it'll also measure all your screens for you, and is supported by every existing piece of software.

Edmund
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keith_cooper
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« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2008, 06:40:03 AM »
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At this point, EyeOne and the new Spyder kit are reliable tested solutions for print profiling, and ColorMunki will probably be very good in about 6 months. I would recommend the EyeOne, it'll also measure all your screens for you, and is supported by every existing piece of software.

Whilst you might recommend it, I'd point out the sizeable price difference between an i1 version with decent patch count targets and the SpyderPrint.

In the UK
SpyderPrint ~ £260 +VAT
i1 Photo ~ £850 +VAT

Bit like me saying I prefer my Canon 1Ds3 to a 5D and neglecting to mention the slight difference in price :-)

I recently did a Colour Management workshop for a large group of mostly amateur photographers, and while quite a few had (and liked) the PrintFIX PRO/SpyderPrint not one had ever considered an i1 photo ... that's the market that the ColorMunki is aimed at ;-)
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eronald
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« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2008, 07:20:28 AM »
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I think you're mostly right. Let's hope the Munki gets sorted out pronto.

Edmund

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Whilst you might recommend it, I'd point out the sizeable price difference between an i1 version with decent patch count targets and the SpyderPrint.

In the UK
SpyderPrint ~ £260 +VAT
i1 Photo ~ £850 +VAT

Bit like me saying I prefer my Canon 1Ds3 to a 5D and neglecting to mention the slight difference in price :-)

I recently did a Colour Management workshop for a large group of mostly amateur photographers, and while quite a few had (and liked) the PrintFIX PRO/SpyderPrint not one had ever considered an i1 photo ... that's the market that the ColorMunki is aimed at ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191828\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 07:22:34 AM by eronald » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2008, 08:03:50 AM »
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Whilst you might recommend it, I'd point out the sizeable price difference between an i1 version with decent patch count targets and the SpyderPrint.

Agreed.

Anyone getting email replies from this discussion can see what Edmund first said then edited in the last post. I'll point out for that he's as yet provided no firm evidence that anyone should wait 6 months (to pull a length of time out of his rear-end) before purchasing this product. Its not prefect! I have some beef's with the software. But the bloody product works and pretty darn well! In fact, on the 3-4 printers I tested (Epson), the output profile quality with 100 patches was as good and in some cases BETTER than what I got reading 1700 patches on an iSis using ProfileMaker Pro! Now X-Rite and perhaps someone in the business of building custom profiles for others may not like such a report. That we're talking a differences of way more than 10X in price between the two above products, one can see how this new technology may be frightening.

IF Edmund has empirical evidence to suggest that the ColorMunki is flawed, isn't a good buy, or that such issues will be cleared up in 6 months, I'm all ears. But lately, his ideas about color management seem to be generated more by religion than science. Either that or there's a political slant, neither of which serves him well!

If you think you want to try the ColorMunki, of course purchase from a good supplier, understand that there's a warranty and that a good company like B&H or Calumet, or Chromix would be happy to take back the product and return your money if you don't care for the product. One day of testing and you can make such a decision on your own.

Or you can wait 6 months and pay for someone else to build your profiles or buy a more expensive solution. Neither option is a poor one, but its one only YOU can make!

At least here in the US, we're tired of scare tactics. If Edmund has GOOD intelligence of WMD's, lets see it. Otherwise, dismiss it.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:22:58 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2008, 01:20:41 PM »
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Right now I'm considering two choices:

1) Upgrade my EyeOne Proof (full cmyk, small rgb patchs) to full rgb... about $400

or

2) Buying the ColorMunki Photo... about $450

With the first choice, I keep on reliable and familar EyeOne hardware and interface.
Having the second choice gives me a extra spectro and maybe similar quality in RGB printing.

I been watching this tread and is getting very difficult to decide... but I have no hurry so I will wait a little more...

Anyway, I will appreciate any comments
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eronald
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« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2008, 03:32:56 PM »
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Right now I'm considering two choices:

1) Upgrade my EyeOne Proof (full cmyk, small rgb patchs) to full rgb... about $400

or

2) Buying the ColorMunki Photo... about $450

With the first choice, I keep on reliable and familar EyeOne hardware and interface.
Having the second choice gives me a extra spectro and maybe similar quality in RGB printing.

I been watching this tread and is getting very difficult to decide... but I have no hurry so I will wait a little more...

Anyway, I will appreciate any comments
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191895\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have a few more choices for you
- Try the Basiccolor test software from the Basiccolor site.
- Try Graeme Gill's free (GPL) argyll software.
- Try the Fuji software.

And of course, I have a feeling that the EyeOne bundle will be upgraded to be at least as good as ColorMunki; Xrite have a history of looking after their customers. Come to think of it, I'm going to email that to Xrite as a request
 
I'm sure Andrew will have some good suggestions too

Edmund
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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2008, 03:33:36 PM »
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I returned the ColorMunki as a defective unit and have a replacement coming tomorrow.  I wanted to remove all of the old CM software before installing the new, but there apparently is no software un-installer.  There is a broken link to an un-installer here:  http://www.xritephoto.com/index.cfm?MenuIt...nuGroup=Support
but when I asked CM support they didn't know anything about it and just told me to trash the CM application folder, but how do I get rid of all the orphaned system files?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I received ColorMunki #2 today and the installation was the same - installs ColorMunki Photo 1.0 and ColorPicker 1.0.1.  I'm hoping there is no repeat of the previous problems.  What ever happened to the new software that was promised last week?
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eronald
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« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2008, 03:50:03 PM »
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Anyone getting email replies from this discussion can see what Edmund first said then edited in the last post. I'll point out for that he's as yet provided no firm evidence that anyone should wait 6 months (to pull a length of time out of his rear-end) before purchasing this product. Its not prefect! I have some beef's with the software. But the bloody product works and pretty darn well! In fact, on the 3-4 printers I tested (Epson), the output profile quality with 100 patches was as good and in some cases BETTER than what I got reading 1700 patches on an iSis using ProfileMaker Pro! Now X-Rite and perhaps someone in the business of building custom profiles for others may not like such a report. That we're talking a differences of way more than 10X in price between the two above products, one can see how this new technology may be frightening.

IF Edmund has empirical evidence to suggest that the ColorMunki is flawed, isn't a good buy, or that such issues will be cleared up in 6 months, I'm all ears. But lately, his ideas about color management seem to be generated more by religion than science. Either that or there's a political slant, neither of which serves him well!

At least here in the US, we're tired of scare tactics. If Edmund has GOOD intelligence of WMD's, lets see it. Otherwise, dismiss it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Andrew.

Let me summarize my position re. ColorMunki: Nice hardware built on validated i1 with solid-state illuminant technology, interesting innovative software, good features, breakthrough price, has just hit the market. Conclusion: If you like the latest toy go for it, if you are in production, stand aside a bit and wait a few months and *then* go for it. I'm over 50 and as you say I've got religion - it's called being careful. I now wait at the lights before I cross the road.

Let me repeat, I like the ColorMunki a lot, but it never hurts to wait a bit before going for a new product. Also, in a few months it will hopefully be supported as a display calibrator by the ColorEyes and Basicolor guys.

I do like the iSis though - funny, though, the one I have now has a lock for the head which wasn't there on the first production unit I got  Xrite has a habit of listening to their customers and improving the product.

 
Edmund
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 03:51:02 PM by eronald » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2008, 03:59:32 PM »
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If you like the latest toy go for it, if you are in production, stand aside a bit and wait a few months and *then* go for it.


Production? This products audience? And I suspect you are serious.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2008, 04:09:56 PM »
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Production? This products audience? And I suspect you are serious.
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Andrew,

I am serious, and you are smart enough to pick up on it.

The EyeOne was overpriced for its target audience in the photography market - photographers spend heavily only for their cameras while printers have heavy presses and investments. As a result there is *huge* pent up demand among pro photographers for color-management for their inkjets.

To support my thesis, ColorMunki is now being bundled with *wide-format* Epson printers by at least one major pro dealer in Paris. These printers are not exactly hobbyist toys.

The good news is that the pro photographers usually pull the market - whenever the pros embrace a technology, the prosumers then go for it too. So if the pros now go for color-managed workflows, finally, then the prosumers will do so too.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 04:17:03 PM by eronald » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2008, 04:21:10 PM »
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The EyeOne was overpriced for its target audience in the photography market

Which photography market, those that purchase a Canon 1Ds Mark III or those that purchase a Rebel? I don't see how you can lump them all into one group and say it was over priced.

Will X-Rite sell more ColorMunki's than EyeOne's? Well Canon sells more Rebels than 1Ds Mark III's!  

And just what have you found in CM that leads you to recommend a wait time of six months or an inability for users to keep from hosing their "production" whatever that vague term means.

Like your discussions of camera profiling, you make points but never back them up or reply to a question about said points. So staying OT, just what is there in CM that makes you suggest someone should wait 6 months or that a so called production environment would be hosed? We know about the dumb Appsetter and how to make it go away. So aside from that, I'm all ears.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2008, 04:48:23 PM »
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Which photography market, those that purchase a Canon 1Ds Mark III or those that purchase a Rebel? I don't see how you can lump them all into one group and say it was over priced.

Will X-Rite sell more ColorMunki's than EyeOne's? Well Canon sells more Rebels than 1Ds Mark III's! 

And just what have you found in CM that leads you to recommend a wait time of six months or an inability for users to keep from hosing their "production" whatever that vague term means.

Like your discussions of camera profiling, you make points but never back them up or reply to a question about said points. So staying OT, just what is there in CM that makes you suggest someone should wait 6 months or that a so called production environment would be hosed? We know about the dumb Appsetter and how to make it go away. So aside from that, I'm all ears.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


EyeOne is substantially more expensive than a 40D
[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/531271-REG/Canon_1901B010_EOS_40D_SLR_Digital.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5312...LR_Digital.html[/url]

And near the price range of a 5D. Both of these are nowadays found in many pro kitbags.

I'm not saying that production would be "hosed". I'm saying that new toys can be left to cool down a little bit, and minor annoyances be sorted out in a software update. As will certainly happen.

As for you, me, and Keith, remember we have fallback tools and even fallback computers for the cases when we hit a problem and are in a hurry to continue working. This gives us a measure of tolerance to bugs that normal users cannot afford.

Edmund


Ps. When can we expect a new edition of your book updated for ColorMunki and Printfix Pro ?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 04:53:40 PM by eronald » Logged
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