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Author Topic: C4 vs. LR color rendition  (Read 19671 times)
samuel_js
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« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2008, 06:27:46 PM »
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[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']
Quote from: ctz,Apr 17 2008, 03:50 PM
Quote from: Adam Kleifield,Apr 17 2008, 12:41 AM
Hey all,

Thank you to those of you who pointed out the mistake we made in our assessment. We corrected the error and redid our test. I invite you all to take another look at the article and let us know what you think!

http://www.deathtofilm.com/2008/04/08/how-...he-competition/
...Hmmm
Still "af-i S portrait something" in the ICC profile tag, on http://www.deathtofilm.com/2008/04/08/how-...ition/#more-296 link

Sorry...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190149\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/b][/span]

What I think is that saying: "Did we mention that we spent over 20 minutes tweaking the image in C1 to get a good result? (Compared to 20 seconds in Lightroom" shows how unprofessional and biased this "test" is. But thank you for you effort anyway.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 06:28:47 PM by samuel_js » Logged
samuel_js
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« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2008, 05:01:17 AM »
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Here's another example about how LR reads my PhaseOne files.
The first one is from C4. The second one is from LR with it's own WB (same grey point as in C4 gives different WB numbers). And the third one is from LR with same WB numbers as in C4.
This one was from a H20 digital back:



If you want to see a bigger version click HERE

The Raw file is available HERE for those interested. The download is limited to 100 and 7 days.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 05:05:14 AM by samuel_js » Logged
Snook
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« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2008, 08:44:13 AM »
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Quote
Here's another example about how LR reads my PhaseOne files.
The first one is from C4. The second one is from LR with it's own WB (same grey point as in C4 gives different WB numbers). And the third one is from LR with same WB numbers as in C4.
This one was from a H20 digital back:



If you want to see a bigger version click HERE

The Raw file is available HERE for those interested. The download is limited to 100 and 7 days.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here C4 looks the best to me....
Don't you guys find in the Other post with Link that the skin tones look really magenta in LR example?

Snook
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E_Edwards
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« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2008, 02:43:43 PM »
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Samuel,

I downloaded your raw file, and just as you show, it looks awful in Lightroom. It's giving me a White Balance as Shot of 2600, and the reds look really pink and awful. Impossible to correct in Lightroom, too far from where they should be.

You must know, that this does nor happen, not even remotely, with Leaf files, the Leaf files look pretty close in the Leaf application versus Lightroom, and because of the incredible amount of tweaks that you can do in Lightroom, particularly with the HSL sliders,  you can -in my opinion- surpass the Leaf software, or at the very least match it pretty easily, a reason why I use Lightroom "tethered" via the watched folder. I could just as easily use Leaf, but I use Lightroom because it's far faster and stable.

It could be that Phase and Lightroom aren't fined tuned yet, maybe the nature of the raw files makes it difficult to achieve, unlike other brands. Lightroom has been reading Leaf files for a long time.

Certainly, if your Phase files are representative and other Phase users are finding similar bad results, I would say Adobe shouldn't have announced compatibility (if they have), because judging only by your file, it doesn't appear to be ready yet.

As a matter of interest, what white balance is Capture1 reading. I mean 2600 is way down normal conditions. What lighting did you use?

Anyone reading might have come to the conclusion that Lightroom is really awful, when in fact, at least in my experience, it's bloody good!

Edward


PS. I just downloaded a raw Leaf file from their website (because I'm at home now and don't have my own here). Opened it in Leaf C11.1, and it looks very good. I chose the file with vegetables and red apples, oranges, since your problem is mainly with the reds. Perfect in every colour.

Then I opened it in Lightroom, absolutely perfect too. Just for your info.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 02:52:18 PM by E_Edwards » Logged
E_Edwards
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« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2008, 05:52:18 PM »
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I found a raw P45 somewhere and when opened it in Lightroom, the reds seemed OK, although there were few reds to form a proper opinion. Also, the white balance as shot was 5600.
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samuel_js
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« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2008, 07:44:49 PM »
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I found a raw P45 somewhere and when opened it in Lightroom, the reds seemed OK, although there were few reds to form a proper opinion. Also, the white balance as shot was 5600.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190689\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Edward, my P21 files are better but still not as good as in C4. This is maybe something related to some DB (older).



I really like Lightroom and I want to be able to use it but the H20 & P20 files are a big disappointment.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 07:45:51 PM by samuel_js » Logged
nik
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« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2008, 11:10:51 PM »
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Right, math isn't necessary, nor are empirical red pants! This thread has taken on a life of it's own and should probably be put to rest. If enough people ask, Adobe will include the ability to select an ICC profile (input or export) in LR. Although they are the only ones who can define 'enough' at this point, they do listen.

-N

Quote
It would be useful for you define what a profile is, then what a Look Profile is, then what a rendering preset is and how they all differ. Math isn't necessary, end results to the end user are.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2008, 11:17:52 PM »
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Here's another example about how LR reads my PhaseOne files.
The first one is from C4. The second one is from LR with it's own WB (same grey point as in C4 gives different WB numbers). And the third one is from LR with same WB numbers as in C4.
This one was from a H20 digital back:


Here's my rendering of the image through ACR. The default white balance was horrible, and the Calibration sliders needed some adjustment, but adjusting calibration defaults only needs to be done once:

[attachment=6209:attachment]

ACR/Lightroom is capable of much better color than the defaults if you take the time to get to know it. Not having a Color Checker in the shot makes it difficult to tell what the correct color is, but there are definitely far better possibilities than the default rendering available.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 11:20:19 PM by Jonathan Wienke » Logged

eronald
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« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2008, 12:03:41 AM »
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ACR/Lightroom can apply any matrix. The problem is that the camera can tell it which one it wants, but Adobe have chosen to ignore that information and use either their own or one determined by the user. It would be smarterto have the *option* to pick up the matrix from the file.

Edmund

Quote
Here's my rendering of the image through ACR. The default white balance was horrible, and the Calibration sliders needed some adjustment, but adjusting calibration defaults only needs to be done once:

[attachment=6209:attachment]

ACR/Lightroom is capable of much better color than the defaults if you take the time to get to know it. Not having a Color Checker in the shot makes it difficult to tell what the correct color is, but there are definitely far better possibilities than the default rendering available.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2008, 12:47:40 AM »
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Hi,

Michael Reichman made an interview at the Phase One factory. As far as I can recall each Phase One  back is individually profiled. The images are said to contain about 1 MByte of characterization data. According to Phase One these data, which are proprietary, are one of the reasons they cannot support an open RAW format or DNG.

I presume that Capture One can read that data and Lightroom can not.

Also, as pointed out by others, it would be much easier if a standard set of colors like the "Macbeth" Color Checker was included in the picture. We can see that the colors are ugly but can only guess what they should be.

Erik

Quote
ACR/Lightroom can apply any matrix. The problem is that the camera can tell it which one it wants, but Adobe have chosen to ignore that information and use either their own or one determined by the user. It would be smarterto have the *option* to pick up the matrix from the file.

Edmund
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« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 12:50:33 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

samuel_js
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« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2008, 03:56:02 AM »
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Quote
Here's my rendering of the image through ACR. The default white balance was horrible, and the Calibration sliders needed some adjustment, but adjusting calibration defaults only needs to be done once:

[attachment=6209:attachment]

ACR/Lightroom is capable of much better color than the defaults if you take the time to get to know it. Not having a Color Checker in the shot makes it difficult to tell what the correct color is, but there are definitely far better possibilities than the default rendering available.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The reds are still off. I know LR very well, and my point is that I should not need too much time just to get the colors right. LR is capable of much better color tweak than C4 but isn't capable of reading the right colors from the beginning. That's the problem.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2008, 07:04:42 AM »
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The reds are still off. I know LR very well, and my point is that I should not need too much time just to get the colors right. LR is capable of much better color tweak than C4 but isn't capable of reading the right colors from the beginning. That's the problem.

Have you tried running any of the calibration scripts (Fors, etc) to set the Calibration parameters? Shooting a Color Checker and running a script doesn't take that long, and only ever has to be done once. Invest an hour or so per camera, and then you have good color and the workflow advantages of LR/ACR/Bridge.

And since I didn't have a Color Checker as a reference, I was guessing at the colors.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 07:06:17 AM by Jonathan Wienke » Logged

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