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Author Topic: Color Matching Headache!  (Read 5891 times)
jrdigiart
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« on: April 19, 2008, 05:45:04 PM »
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I've known about this forum for quite some time, but unfortunately haven't taken the time to discover what a great resource it is... you "guys" are phenomenal!

I have a Z3100, 44" printer that I bought in late December '06.  Like many others, I have lost count of the exasperating encounters I've had with HP (tech support).

Anyway, my printer seems to be working fine now and I have some questions I hope you can help me with.

I'm a fine art portrait artist/photographer and I'm having a lot of frustration getting my monitor (ACD 23") to match my printed output... I'm sure the bane of most everyone here at one time or another!

Despite numerous monitor and paper calibrations, boarding up the window and changing the lighting in my workspace (using Solux 4700˚ lamps now), nothing is working.  The wasted hours and media to get my prints right, is unacceptable, as the number of my clients increase (not that it should have ever been acceptable).

I feel my monitor is a big part of the problem, so I purchased an Eizo CG241W, to arrive this week. I did this before re-visiting this forum and hope it's a purchase I will not regret.  In addition to a new monitor, it seems I need a better profiling solution.  I was considering HP's APS, but it looks like it uses the same DTP94 colorimeter that came with X-Rite's Optix XR, which I have been using. Since the Z3100 has it's own spectrophotometer, other products like i1 Photo are redundant.. after all, I bought this printer so I didn't have to mess with all of that.  I think I only need profiling software, but at this point I really don't know what I need... maybe a good psychiatrist!

My other question is what happens with expired ink cartridges?  I anticipated using a lot more ink than I have and bought twin packs, due to expire in September & November of this year.  I heard that the Z3100 won't let you use expired ink.  Is this the case, and if so, is there any way to get around it?

Any help is greatly appreciated...  Thanx

Joe Roselli,
JR Digital Artworks
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peteh
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 07:16:05 PM »
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I've known about this forum for quite some time, but unfortunately haven't taken the time to discover what a great resource it is... you "guys" are phenomenal!

I have a Z3100, 44" printer that I bought in late December '06. Like many others, I have lost count of the exasperating encounters I've had with HP (tech support).

Anyway, my printer seems to be working fine now and I have some questions I hope you can help me with.

I'm a fine art portrait artist/photographer and I'm having a lot of frustration getting my monitor (ACD 23") to match my printed output... I'm sure the bane of most everyone here at one time or another!

Despite numerous monitor and paper calibrations, boarding up the window and changing the lighting in my workspace (using Solux 4700˚ lamps now), nothing is working. The wasted hours and media to get my prints right, is unacceptable, as the number of my clients increase (not that it should have ever been acceptable).

I feel my monitor is a big part of the problem, so I purchased an Eizo CG241W, to arrive this week. I did this before re-visiting this forum and hope it's a purchase I will not regret. In addition to a new monitor, it seems I need a better profiling solution. I was considering HP's APS, but it looks like it uses the same DTP94 colorimeter that came with X-Rite's Optix XR, which I have been using. Since the Z3100 has it's own spectrophotometer, other products like i1 Photo are redundant.. after all, I bought this printer so I didn't have to mess with all of that. I think I only need profiling software, but at this point I really don't know what I need... maybe a good psychiatrist!

My other question is what happens with expired ink cartridges? I anticipated using a lot more ink than I have and bought twin packs, due to expire in September & November of this year. I heard that the Z3100 won't let you use expired ink. Is this the case, and if so, is there any way to get around it?

Any help is greatly appreciated... Thanx

Joe Roselli,
JR Digital Artworks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have a 24 in Z3100ps GP and APS.I just bought a NEC LCD 2690WUXi with NEC's SpectraView 2 with a Gretag Eye One Display 2 and Their software.I could not be happier. It was hard to get the eye one from them but they came thru.I saved ALOT of money because I did not buy a Eizo monitor.Thanks to the Digital Dog.I bought the monitor and the profilling for 1600 bucks.Make sure the colorometer can access the monitors LUT'S.Maybe it's the software that does that?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 07:17:04 PM by peteh » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2008, 09:22:57 PM »
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Hi,

What is your printing work flow? I'm sure a lot of people on this forum want to help but we need more info.


There are a few problem areas:

1) Display profile may be wrong
2) Printer profile may be wrong
3) Some error in the work flow, like doing color management twice

Finally you may simply expect to much, in which case there may be some help.

I assume that your display profile is OK.

When you build your printer profile you need to ensure that no color management is done on the printer, and that your program Photoshop, Lightroom whatever does not use any profile.

This way you ensure that the data sent from the computer to the printer is unaltered RGB.

Once you have color profile you print it with the exactly the same settings as the one used for generating the profile but using your own profile.

The other question is that you may ask to much. Color profiles are just math. If you are printing from Photoshop you can "soft proof" your image and adjust the image to your taste.

Michael Reichmann and Jeff Schewe have made a tutorial (avalaible on this site) called From Camera to Print which explains all the issues in an easy to follow way. It's worth both the dollars and the hours spent watching

Erik


Quote
I've known about this forum for quite some time, but unfortunately haven't taken the time to discover what a great resource it is... you "guys" are phenomenal!

I have a Z3100, 44" printer that I bought in late December '06.  Like many others, I have lost count of the exasperating encounters I've had with HP (tech support).

Anyway, my printer seems to be working fine now and I have some questions I hope you can help me with.

I'm a fine art portrait artist/photographer and I'm having a lot of frustration getting my monitor (ACD 23") to match my printed output... I'm sure the bane of most everyone here at one time or another!

Despite numerous monitor and paper calibrations, boarding up the window and changing the lighting in my workspace (using Solux 4700˚ lamps now), nothing is working.  The wasted hours and media to get my prints right, is unacceptable, as the number of my clients increase (not that it should have ever been acceptable).

I feel my monitor is a big part of the problem, so I purchased an Eizo CG241W, to arrive this week. I did this before re-visiting this forum and hope it's a purchase I will not regret.  In addition to a new monitor, it seems I need a better profiling solution.  I was considering HP's APS, but it looks like it uses the same DTP94 colorimeter that came with X-Rite's Optix XR, which I have been using. Since the Z3100 has it's own spectrophotometer, other products like i1 Photo are redundant.. after all, I bought this printer so I didn't have to mess with all of that.  I think I only need profiling software, but at this point I really don't know what I need... maybe a good psychiatrist!

My other question is what happens with expired ink cartridges?  I anticipated using a lot more ink than I have and bought twin packs, due to expire in September & November of this year.  I heard that the Z3100 won't let you use expired ink.  Is this the case, and if so, is there any way to get around it?

Any help is greatly appreciated...  Thanx

Joe Roselli,
JR Digital Artworks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 12:08:04 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

jrdigiart
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2008, 02:47:15 AM »
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Erik,

Thanks for your reply!  

I print from Photoshop CS3.  In the printing dialogue box, the rendering intent is set to relative colorimetric and the printer is set to manage color. Should this be set to No Color Management?

I embed my images with the Adobe RGB (1998) profile... but are you saying that this profile should be removed before printing?

The printer profiles (for each different paper type) are created in the Z3100, so I'm pretty sure they are correct.

Once you have color profile you print it with the exactly the same settings as the one used for generating the profile but using your own profile. Once you have color profile you print it with the exactly the same settings as the one used for generating the profile but using your own profile.  
You kinda lost me here...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "doing color management twice", although I'm probably guilty of doing it!  If I have done this, how do you undo it?

The tutorial sounds good and I'm definitely going to check it out.

- Joe
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BobDavid
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2008, 10:13:25 AM »
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LET PHOTOSHOP MANAGE COLORS and you will be amazed.
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jrdigiart
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2008, 12:06:58 PM »
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Hi Bob,

In trying to work this all out, I've made many test prints changing settings in different combinations, as methodically as I could, to see what produced the best result.  The colors were very desaturated with barely any shadow detail... practically black, when PS managed the color. I still can't be 100% certain though, that there isn't a "conglomeration" of circumstances causing these problems. Thanks for your input!

-Joe
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peteh
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2008, 01:54:29 PM »
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Hi Bob,

In trying to work this all out, I've made many test prints changing settings in different combinations, as methodically as I could, to see what produced the best result.  The colors were very desaturated with barely any shadow detail... practically black, when PS managed the color. I still can't be 100% certain though, that there isn't a "conglomeration" of circumstances causing these problems. Thanks for your input!

-Joe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190791\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds like you are double color managing. By letting photoshop manage color AND letting the printer manage color.Let photoshop manage color and make sure the printer does NOT !
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juicy
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2008, 03:02:28 PM »
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Erik,

Thanks for your reply! 

I print from Photoshop CS3.  In the printing dialogue box, the rendering intent is set to relative colorimetric and the printer is set to manage color. Should this be set to No Color Management?

I embed my images with the Adobe RGB (1998) profile... but are you saying that this profile should be removed before printing?

The printer profiles (for each different paper type) are created in the Z3100, so I'm pretty sure they are correct.

Once you have color profile you print it with the exactly the same settings as the one used for generating the profile but using your own profile. Once you have color profile you print it with the exactly the same settings as the one used for generating the profile but using your own profile. 
You kinda lost me here...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "doing color management twice", although I'm probably guilty of doing it!  If I have done this, how do you undo it?

The tutorial sounds good and I'm definitely going to check it out.

- Joe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi!

It's not completely clear what do you perceive as the biggest problem. Is it color reproduction or contrast not matching the screen? What kind of papers are you using?

As already stated you should set Photoshop to manage color and make sure that the printer driver is set to NO color management to avoid double color management.

This may be too obvious but 1) are you softproofing and then tuning your images for print according to the softproof before printing? 2) when you say you embed your images with the adobeRGB-profile, does that mean that the images are created in or converted to that exact profile?

Anyway the camera-to-print -tutorial is truly excellent and highly recommended.

Cheers,
J
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jrdigiart
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 11:48:19 PM »
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Hi J!

My biggest concern is with color reproduction... but I think I really may have missed the boat here!  If I am to understand this correctly, the print will match my monitor ONLY when it is in "Proof Colors".

Pardon my ignorance (I can hear a resounding "what a moron"), but why color correct and fine tune an image if you are going to have to change it all over again when you softproof it... why not always work with Proof Colors on?

Whatever the case, it is apparent I need to go back to the fundamentals, and based on your recommendations, "Camera to Print" is a good place to start.

Thank you to everyone for all of your help!  I'll come back when I have some "real" questions.


- Joe
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juicy
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2008, 12:55:57 AM »
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Hi J!

My biggest concern is with color reproduction... but I think I really may have missed the boat here!  If I am to understand this correctly, the print will match my monitor ONLY when it is in "Proof Colors".

Pardon my ignorance (I can hear a resounding "what a moron"), but why color correct and fine tune an image if you are going to have to change it all over again when you softproof it... why not always work with Proof Colors on?
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- Joe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190894\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi!
You can work with the softproof from the beginning if you know for sure that the image won't EVER be repurposed (printed on any other printer/paper or presented in the net or..).
The idea is first to make the image look the way you want and archive that as a master file. Then you will softproof it in your printer profile with the preferred rendering intent and make the necessary adjustments (preferably on an adjustment layer) to make the image look as closely as possible what you wanted in the first place. It is helpful to have the masterfile open in another window at the same time to see exactly what you need to work on.
Proper softproofing will give a pretty good prediction of what the print will look like. However there will allways be some colors that cannot be printed on a particular printer/paper-combination and also some colors that cannot be seen on a monitor. Thus the softproof may not be 100% correct but with good profiles this is not a problem in most cases.
The C-to-P -tutorial covers these aspects in detail.
Cheers,
J
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2008, 07:08:51 AM »
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My biggest concern is with color reproduction... but I think I really may have missed the boat here!  If I am to understand this correctly, the print will match my monitor ONLY when it is in "Proof Colors".

Pardon my ignorance (I can hear a resounding "what a moron"), but why color correct and fine tune an image if you are going to have to change it all over again when you softproof it... why not always work with Proof Colors on?

Custom tweaking and soft-proofing for a specific printer is only necessary when you are trying to fit out-of-gamut colors into a particular printer's color space. If the brightness of ambient lighting and monitor are correctly balanced, your profiles for your monitor and printer are both good, your settings are correct, and the colors in your image fit inside the gamuts of your monitor and printer, then no special action is needed; your print will closely match the monitor image. Soft-proofing will give you a simulated preview of how out-of-gamut colors will be handled, which can be useful when deciding how to fit colors into a device gamut while doing the least amount of damage possible.
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ivan muller
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2008, 10:46:25 AM »
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hi,

I have the z2100 and also battled to match the print to the monitor.

this is what i do now:

Create a new profile for the paper
sync my pc with the printer
restart photoshop
settings- let photoshop manage colour
           - enter new profile
           -perceptual

in the printer driver make sure you tick 'application managed colours'

when specifying print size etc in the printer driver you also have to specify the new profile

I only have a crt monitor but I made test copying a painting with an old macbeth colour checker card inserted. End result was very very close. do remember that certain colours do not reproduce exactly as seen/photographed. this i can see when comparing the printed chart with the actual one. I made this test on hp canvas which is nice and white but obviously dont have the punchy blacks as glossy paper but in my mind still looks pretty good. Out of gamut helps to see what will happen. sometimes an auto contrast on photoshop helps a lot. I have also painted my digital darkroom mid grey and my ambient light is set at 5000k and my monitor also calibrated at 5000 with gamma set to 1.8.

hope this helps,
regards, Ivan
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2008, 02:08:36 PM »
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Hi!

If you are using color management then the printer should be set to "No color management" and set "Photoshop Manages Colors". This assumes that you have a good color profile for the printer. In this case Photoshop will convert its RGB values to the correct RGB in the printers color space.

If you use "printer manages color" and would use color profile in photoshop the colors would be mangled twice, once by Photoshop and once by the printer driver.

You don't remove any profile in Photoshop but set the printer profile in the "print dialog". That should work. See enclosed picture.

Please don't expect miracles. Color profiles are just math, there is no art behind. A good way to check is to do soft proofing, but it is counter intuitive.

I really recommend "From Camera to Print" by the gentlemen Reichman and Schewe. They explain everything pretty well and the show is actually quite fun.

Best regards
Erik

Quote
Erik,

Thanks for your reply! 

I print from Photoshop CS3.  In the printing dialogue box, the rendering intent is set to relative colorimetric and the printer is set to manage color. Should this be set to No Color Management?

I embed my images with the Adobe RGB (1998) profile... but are you saying that this profile should be removed before printing?

The printer profiles (for each different paper type) are created in the Z3100, so I'm pretty sure they are correct.

Once you have color profile you print it with the exactly the same settings as the one used for generating the profile but using your own profile. Once you have color profile you print it with the exactly the same settings as the one used for generating the profile but using your own profile. 
You kinda lost me here...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "doing color management twice", although I'm probably guilty of doing it!  If I have done this, how do you undo it?

The tutorial sounds good and I'm definitely going to check it out.

- Joe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 02:11:44 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2008, 02:17:27 PM »
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Hi,

Just a comment. Now days most authors recommend to set white point on monitor to 6500 K and gamma to 2.2. Main reason seems to be that this is close to the nominal behavior of the monitors.

Best regards
Erik


Quote
hi,

I have the z2100 and also battled to match the print to the monitor.

this is what i do now:

Create a new profile for the paper
sync my pc with the printer
restart photoshop
settings- let photoshop manage colour
           - enter new profile
           -perceptual

in the printer driver make sure you tick 'application managed colours'

when specifying print size etc in the printer driver you also have to specify the new profile

I only have a crt monitor but I made test copying a painting with an old macbeth colour checker card inserted. End result was very very close. do remember that certain colours do not reproduce exactly as seen/photographed. this i can see when comparing the printed chart with the actual one. I made this test on hp canvas which is nice and white but obviously dont have the punchy blacks as glossy paper but in my mind still looks pretty good. Out of gamut helps to see what will happen. sometimes an auto contrast on photoshop helps a lot. I have also painted my digital darkroom mid grey and my ambient light is set at 5000k and my monitor also calibrated at 5000 with gamma set to 1.8.

hope this helps,
regards, Ivan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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jrdigiart
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2008, 06:03:46 PM »
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Thanks again to everyone for all your great advice... it's greatly appreciated!

I purchased the "Camera to Print" tutorial, and it's very good. Between that and all of your help, I'm sure I'll get this sorted out!   ;-)>

- Joe
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 12:21:32 AM »
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Good luck, and please enjoy the video!

Erik

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Thanks again to everyone for all your great advice... it's greatly appreciated!

I purchased the "Camera to Print" tutorial, and it's very good. Between that and all of your help, I'm sure I'll get this sorted out!   ;-)>

- Joe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191082\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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ivan muller
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 02:17:54 AM »
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Hi,

the following is from the iso standard:

ISO standard 3664 and 12646 for viewing conditions require the following:

Reference illumination  = D50
D50 CRI                      = 90 or higher
Metamerism index          less than four  (not sure what this means)
Ambient light white point    = 5000k
ambient light editing area   =32 lux or lower
ambient light - proofing area = 1500-2500lux
ambient light outside room - close all windows etc
monitor white point      = d50
monitor white luminance = 80-120cdm2
environment surface       =50%reflective or less
constant level of illumination throughout the day

D50 is used for proofing purposes because it appears colour neutral to the human eye


Lux converted to a incident light meter reading is aprox.

32lux or lower is Ev3-4
1500lux to 2500lux is Ev 9-10

Ev 4 = 100iso 1sec f4 and Ev5 is 1sec f5.6

Ev 9 = 100iso 1/30sec f4
Ev10 = 100iso 1/30secf5.6

As far as I know CRT monitors to use gamma of 1.8 and lcd monitors to use gamma of 2.2

Regards, Ivan
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2008, 04:53:10 AM »
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Hi,


As far as I know CRT monitors to use gamma of 1.8 and lcd monitors to use gamma of 2.2

Regards, Ivan
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do not replace the Mac versus Window myth on Gamma with a CRT versus LCD myth on Gamma.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2008, 07:24:58 AM »
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As far as I know CRT monitors to use gamma of 1.8 and lcd monitors to use gamma of 2.2

Hasn't been true in 10 years or so. The original B&W Apple monitors had a 1.8 gamma, but all of their color ones (LCD and CRT) have a 2.2 gamma.
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2008, 01:05:32 PM »
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While this is a complex subject, today, it is easily implemented.

I'm not saying that my new Canon IPF 5100 is a better machine than yours is, because it's not, but, from the very first print, my prints matched my monitor WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS EXPRESSED BETWEEN EMISSIVE DEVICES AND REFLECTIVE DEVICES! Saturation will never be as high as what you see on the monitor, particularly in the greens.

Sorry for the caps, but this is often something people forget.

You may have fine prints, but are expecting certain colors to match where it is simply impossible.

For the most accurate work, you can soft proof as was mentioned. If that's set up and done correctly, you won't be so surprised at what you get. A good *free* tutorial on this is available from Adobe, on their site, conducted by the Digital Dog, one of our very own members, and a good guy to know.

But, even without that, there shouldn't be too much of a problem. While I'm not familiar with Hp's driver, or if they use a plug-in or not, as the Canon does, the concept is the same. The Hp is a very fine printer, with excellent matching capabilities.

As others have stated, use PS to manage the colors. The preference is for perceptual rendering for photo's, though you can go back and forth to check out whether relative colorimetric, which you are using now, is better with SOME images. It might be, it might not be.

You must set the proper profile in the printer (if the Hp allows that) as well as in the driver. There may be more than one place in the driver to put the profile, you need to do both, if so.

Always keep black point compensation on, no matter what anyone says. ANYONE!!! That includes paper manufacturers, printer manufacturers, etc. It does no harm, and may save your butt.

Make certain that the monitor profile is not set-up as your working space. It happens!!!

As long as you are SURE that your monitor cal is correct, this will make a big difference. Before using any self made profiles for the printer/paper combo, make sure you're using the correct ones from Hp, if you are using paper they supply. If you're not using their paper, I strongly suggest that you buy a package of Hp paper typical of what you use, let the printer do its thing with it, and work from that to make sure it's not the third party supplies that are the problem.

The monitor should always be profiled at 6500k, not 5000k, and gamma 2.2. 1.8 used to be the standard, but not now. The light source for prints, in theory, should be 5000k, but this is a big question.

First of all, having viewing lights that are the proper color, but are not in a booth with the correct wall color, are not accurate, no matter how good the lights themselves are. The prints should always be viewed while on an opaque surface, as light creeps behind a handheld print, changing the appearance. A thick while cardboard is fine if you must hold the print.

Secondly, make sure the lighting is really correct for the actual viewing conditions. In my own lab I had the entire print area, walls and ceiling, painted with the official Macbeth paints, which is a paint you can get from Pittsburgh Paint.  The lights were Macbeth as well.

But for the customer areas, we used more convential lighting, because once they took the prints out of the lab, their lighting was uncontrolled. The print colors will seem to change, as you know.

I'll leave it here, though if you have any specific questions, don't hesitate to ask.
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