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Author Topic: A forum proposal  (Read 10991 times)
SecondFocus
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2008, 06:40:23 PM »
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Well it looks to me that things have already improved around here!
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Ian L. Sitren
SecondFocus
James R Russell
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2008, 07:52:09 PM »
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Well it looks to me that things have already improved around here!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes it has, though I just saw another post comparing pixels and lenses on a microscopic level,  so I found the ignore user control.

What a great feature


JR
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TimothyHyde
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2008, 08:21:34 PM »
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This should be fun; i'm getting some popcorn.   We're already on page two of another useless-but-contentious thread and it just opened.
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woof75
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2008, 08:21:45 PM »
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Maybe the ignore function is the was to go, I hadn't heard of that before, amazing what you can learn on these forums. Man I'm turning that one on right now.
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Mitchell Baum
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2008, 09:48:20 PM »
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I'm an amateur. I only sell a few prints, and I don't come close to making a living at it.

I can't stress enough how valuable forums have been for my photography.
But now that I'm moving closer to buying a MFDB, this forum, and GetDPI have become absolutely essential. There just doesn't seem to be another source of good info. The medium format manufacturers are not good at providing info, and the markets too small for the media to give it much coverage.

Clearly for MFDBs, but also for DSLRs, the pros are generally the ones who provide the most info and best advice. I don't have much to offer in return, but I am very appreciative. !:^)

I would like to be able to ask a few questions. I do think I have a certain responsibility to keep my mouth shut about things I know nothing about. The threat of the ignore button can back this up!

Thanks Micheal for the forum and great web site , and the Pros and others who give generously of their knowledge and time. It makes a huge difference for some of us. I'm not sure I'd venture into the MFDB world without it.

Thanks,

Mitchell
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2008, 10:12:19 PM »
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Mitchell,

The MFDB reps and dealers are the best and many are here. They really do understand what a major investment it is for us and the support is excellent.

Ask away I am sure no one is going to ignore you. Just start a thread and get it going.
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Ian L. Sitren
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James R Russell
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2008, 10:21:41 PM »
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This should be fun; i'm getting some popcorn.   We're already on page two of another useless-but-contentious thread and it just opened.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Your probably right and I shouldn't have started that "why bother" thread, other than to make a point about how we can all draw from a world wide viewership to learn and get better.

The thing is it's not that any one person or thought needs to be sensored (pun intended), it's just that most of these comparisions between different brands or formats become exhaustive and rarely prove anything.

I regularly shoot the same projects with different cameras, usually for effect, or useability or maybe just to wake myself up.   That's my way of working and doesn't make it better or worse, or good or bad, it's just my way.

Because I own and shoot the Nikons, Canons and Phases and do it in so many different situations I have a pretty good idea of which one works best for the way I shoot under different lighting and subjects.  

In fact I could argue both sides and show detailed data to prove that the Canon is better than the Phase, the Phase stomps a 1ds2, the D3 will resolve equally to anything under high iso.

None of it would do anything to improve anyone's photography.

The first rule, the only rule is to get the shot and to do it beautifully and hopefully with some unqiue quality.  Anything past that is just tech talk.

There is a story about the Legendary photographer Phillip Dixon  [a href=\"http://tinyurl.com/2tf3u]http://tinyurl.com/2tf3u[/url]   and I don't know if it's true or not but I still love this story.  Someone told me that years ago on a very large production with a honeywagon, grip trucks, dozens of crew Phillip planted his tripod and a Nikon F3 and took a few frames of the model that was in hair and makeup, turned to the Art Director and said, "we're finished".   The story continues that Phillip then left and went home.

Now whether that is true or not I really don't know but I love the thought behind it and doubt if I've ever had the stones to pull it off, (though I've thought about doing it a lot).

Still, if it is true, that is the way photography should work.   A great talent shoots a compelling photograph and then stops.

A friend of mine who worked for years with Guy Bourdin   http://www.guybourdin.org/   told me that Guy's process of editing a shoot was to go through the film and stop looking once he found the frame he liked, regardless of what was on the next two, three or four dozen rolls.

I also love that thought that he was so sure of what he wanted and could recognize it that it was just a waste of time to keep looking for something else.

There is a lesson here and that is not to waste time.  These forums are great for passing time when your batch processing, or just a break from the tedium of digital post, conference calls, or waiting for your flight delayed plane to final get to the boarding stage.

Still, the most important part of these forums is to come away either entertained or informed, hopefully both.

JR
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 10:31:25 PM by James R Russell » Logged

Mitchell Baum
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2008, 10:56:25 PM »
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Mitchell,

The MFDB reps and dealers are the best and many are here. They really do understand what a major investment it is for us and the support is excellent.

Ask away I am sure no one is going to ignore you. Just start a thread and get it going.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194015\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ian,

You are absolutely right about this in my very limited experience on the forum.
What I meant to say is that it's seems harder to get data from manufacturer or retailer web sites for the Medium Format than DSLR. It makes the forum even more essential for MFDB.

I guess I'm not used to personal service!

Best,

Mitchell
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2008, 11:01:36 PM »
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I am against the Pro Forum as well. Since a pro photographer is someone who makes at least 51% of his income from photography I will most likely never become a pro ( LOL ) and I want to be included in the forum.
This is the best place on net where I can still kill some time while proccessing daily hundreds of Raw's into JPGs and justify not shooting JPGs in the first place. OOOPPPs I forgot, I can't shoot JPG's
with MFDB. I would need DSLR. Does anybody know if I can get similar results with MK3 ?
http://AndreNapier.com
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2008, 11:09:20 PM »
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And now seriously if you want a pro's only forum on LL it is already in place and it is called Personal Massage. I use it with some members and I always find time to answer another pro.
Pro is someone who makes images instead of mega pixels.
Andre
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Dustbak
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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2008, 12:28:40 AM »
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Usually when it gets down to the person that says "weddings/portraits" there is a snicker from the other students, but when you think about it, nothing lasts longer than a personal portrait or hopefully a wedding album (well at least 50% of the wedding albums).

We can all brag about seeing our name in print, or our work in times square but in reality those images usually end up in the bottom of the birdcage in 60 days.

It's the photos that hang on walls and in bookshelves that last.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So right! I am sometimes so envious towards wedding/portrait photographers (some in particular). The way they can capture true emotion and let it show in their imagery can be fantastic. To make images that will be admired and watched still 30 years and more later.

I don't do weddings because I still feel not being able to capture the same kind of emotion in my own images and letting my clients down this way. To me wedding/portrait photography is the true art.

90% of my work is worthless in the next season (which typically doesn't take longer than 3 to 6 months).
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2008, 01:25:49 AM »
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Quote
.
.
.

There is a story about the Legendary photographer Phillip Dixon  http://tinyurl.com/2tf3u   and I don't know if it's true or not but I still love this story.  Someone told me that years ago on a very large production with a honeywagon, grip trucks, dozens of crew Phillip planted his tripod and a Nikon F3 and took a few frames of the model that was in hair and makeup, turned to the Art Director and said, "we're finished".   The story continues that Phillip then left and went home.

Now whether that is true or not I really don't know but I love the thought behind it and doubt if I've ever had the stones to pull it off, (though I've thought about doing it a lot).

Still, if it is true, that is the way photography should work.   A great talent shoots a compelling photograph and then stops.

A friend of mine who worked for years with Guy Bourdin   http://www.guybourdin.org/   told me that Guy's process of editing a shoot was to go through the film and stop looking once he found the frame he liked, regardless of what was on the next two, three or four dozen rolls.

.
.
.


JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194016\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


James,
These are great anecdotes - thanks for sharing.  Filtering is going to be an every increasing problem with digital.  Imagine trying to pull one frame from a session where something like the RED video camera was used for example.   If one shoots tethered the files are already on the computer - maybe 1000 or more each day.  How many do all of you toss out at the end of the day? I'd sure love to have the talent to know which was the 1 keeper and the discipline to dump the rest.  Probably in both stories you shared the photographers were great communicators with their clients so knew exactly what was required and got that to the models/staff so all pre shoot set the stage properly.

I've also heard of a LF photog (forgot his name just now) who would take only a handful of plates to a site, traveling perhaps even across continents to get to a location and waiting days or weeks until the right light or weather, then exposing 3 or 4 plates before returning home to develop. If the first plate was good, he'd just trash the others.    The funny thing is with digital you really could just make one exposure - and know you have the shot and be done. But who does it?

Eric
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 02:53:36 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2008, 01:36:21 AM »
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When come in the MFDB forum, I will not read a lot of sunday's photographer's texts !

The quality of differents people's work is not proportional with their professional activities...

The "Recent works" topic let see that an abondant work is not the same as a good, or a good tasting work.

And I also know professional photographers who are technicaly primates.

PdF
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Natasa Stojsic
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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2008, 01:42:20 AM »
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Stop answering 35mm/MF posts on this forum would simply solve the "problem" I as a working pro am not interested in the opinin from people who do not work daily on a professional base and for sure not in those weening about 35mm/MF stuff.
Just ignore those discussions and hopefully they will go somewhere else.    
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I TOTALLY AGREE!!!
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[span style='color:gray']PHASE[/span][span style='color:skyblue']ONE[/span] [span style='color:gray']P30[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']+[/span][/span]| [span style='color:red']MAMIYA[/span] [span style='color:gray']645 AFD II [/span]  [span style='font-family:impact'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:#98AFC7'] | 28mm f4.5 D. AF | 35mm f3.5 AF | 55-110mm f4.5 AF Zoom | 80mm f2.8 AF | 120mm f4.0 MF Macro | 150mm f3.5 AF[/span][/span][/span]
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2008, 01:57:59 AM »
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@Eric,
Don't shoot with the spray and pray method.

There is one thing I always stress in my workshops and that is SHOOT LESS but shoot more.

Meaning, when you slow down your workflow from 400 shots per session to 40 per session you will notice that the ammount of "wow" shots will increase considerably.

One thing that is a negative from digital is that people shoot too much and wonder why the "pro" photographers are getting such stunning results.

The key in this is, composition, posing, light and pressing the shutter at the moment it NEEDS to be shot.
Posing is acting on 1/1000st of a second one my models always say, and she is absolutly right, there is just one moment that is THAT moment.

Another example when a student of mine shoots with the same light, same model, same posing etc. he/she will still get another picture, this is normal because every photographer is unique and sees the "wow" picture in another way, the first thing however they have to learn is take the time to carefully position their model, make their composition and shoot.
Selecting after a shoot is much more easier when you have to select from 40-50 shots instead of from 400.

On anecdotes:
On real pros.

Picasso had an appointment with a very rich gentleman, he wanted a portrait from his wife and wanted to pay whatever Picasso needed.
Picasso came in, looked at the wife and said, wait here for 2 hours.
He came back with the painting and when the customer asked what it would cost hem Picasso replied $10.000,00
The customer paid but looked surprised and told Picasso.
I'm a very rich man, but man you earn alot of money, even I don't make $5.000,00 an hour.
Picasso replied, "Oh you don't pay for the 2 hours work, you pay for the years and years of learning to do this in two hours".

On the subjects of pro/amateurs.
It's not in the money people make, it's in the time someone needs to direct a shoot into the right direction, I know a few photographers who call themselfs pro (and earning money) who without an assistant don't know how to set light or set the camera, and I occasionally see a photographer who calls himself a beginner directing a model and making a stunning shot in 2-3 takes.

Often for me it's not in the money someone makes, but in the way they work.
In this market nowadays having publications says only you have the right contacts (or at least so it is here )
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NBP
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« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2008, 02:02:41 AM »
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How about if Michael set up a new forum category where only working pros could post
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=193896\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Utterly appalling idea.

Elitist & snobby. I hate this sort of sh** with a passion.

There's nothing wrong with the way this forum is when all's said & done. - Really get over it.
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Ray
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« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2008, 02:04:13 AM »
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Because I own and shoot the Nikons, Canons and Phases and do it in so many different situations I have a pretty good idea of which one works best for the way I shoot under different lighting and subjects. 

In fact I could argue both sides and show detailed data to prove that the Canon is better than the Phase, the Phase stomps a 1ds2, the D3 will resolve equally to anything under high iso.

None of it would do anything to improve anyone's photography.

The first rule, the only rule is to get the shot and to do it beautifully and hopefully with some unqiue quality.  Anything past that is just tech talk.

That's a good post, James. I'm beginning to change my opinion of you already   .

However, I'm a bit confused about the above part of that post. I've generally considered cameras as tools rather than status symbols. Knowing which lens to use, which aperture to use, which shutter speed to use, which camera to use, is surely all part of the accummulated skills of the photographer that come not only from experience, trial and error, but instruction and learning.

Whilst lighting, composition, fortuitous events (I just happened to be there at the right moment) might be considered more important, I think we need to know the technical merits of different types of equipment.

What we don't need is some imperious, nose-in-the-air attitude, 'MFDB always produces better quality images and if you can't see that, that's your problem.'

It's all very well making general motherhood statement such as, '35mm is lighter, more compact, more flexible, better at high ISOs etc, whereas MFDB produces smoother tonalities, better DR, better detail etc.'. (For brevity, I won't make a full list.) But people need to see the magnitude of such differences. How significant is this greater DR? Does it only apply to landscapes with deep shadow in the foliage? Is it relevant in the studio where DR is perhaps not an issue except in so far as it allows more latitude with exposure?

Let's not forget the plight of poor John at Pebbles Place who sold off his MFDB equipment for a 1Ds3 then realised he'd made a mistake. In financial straights, he couldn't afford to buy the best Canon lenses, so instead used Hassy lenses and blamed Canon for the poor results.

If he'd had some good comparison images to view, between the P25 and 1Ds3 using lenses designed for the 1Ds3, he might not have got into this pickle. (On the other hand, perhaps the reason why he got into that pickle was he'd actually seen some good comparisons which used the best Canon lenses, and he doesn't realise the Hassy lens is not adequate with the smaller format.)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 02:06:38 AM by Ray » Logged
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2008, 02:30:33 AM »
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Are we going to change every thread to a 1DsIII thread ??
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Sean Reginald Knight
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« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2008, 02:53:56 AM »
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Are we going to change every thread to a 1DsIII thread ??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194067\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Use the Power of the Ignore Button. Stop feeding the trolls.

Not referring to you, Frank.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 02:54:25 AM by Sean Reginald Knight » Logged
kikashi
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« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2008, 03:02:58 AM »
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And now seriously if you want a pro's only forum on LL it is already in place and it is called Personal Massage.
Andre
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"Personal Massage"? What kind of pro are we talking about?

Jeremy
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