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Author Topic: Danger cleaning sensor  (Read 3560 times)
etmpasadena
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« on: August 04, 2005, 05:23:09 PM »
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I've never had any problem with Visible Dust. Secondly, Kodak, for their DSLRs, has always sold a *liquid* based cleaning solution. So the idea that no camera company recommends liquid cleaning on their chips is simply wrong. If Canon does indeed have openings between any glass element on the chip and the chip itself they should explain that and warn against liquid cleaning. It's as simple as that.
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Peter McLennan
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2005, 07:20:43 PM »
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Oh, please nothing.  My $65 Canon scanner had a line in the "safety" section warning me not to close the scanner lid on my fingers.

Lawyers
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2005, 08:44:02 PM »
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Still though, legal warnings aside, it's an annoying thing that happened to the guy. He didn't find out about that edge pinhole until the camera was out of warranty.

I wonder what Canon would have done if he had used a liquid based solution and had this problem while it was still under warranty. Would they deny warranty repairs because he had used something other than a blower as per the manual? That's being put between a rock and a hard place.
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jani
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2005, 03:58:29 AM »
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Oh, please nothing.  My $65 Canon scanner had a line in the "safety" section warning me not to close the scanner lid on my fingers.
Yes, and your microwave probably has that warning not to dry your dog or cat in it, too.

It's still something that's completely unnecessary to print in a manual, no matter what idiocy other companies feel compelled to print because of stupid court cases.

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Wow, so you send it to Canon and all they do is blow on the imager?
Relevance?

The instructions in the instruction manual is for camera owners, not for Canon certified service technicians.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2005, 06:17:56 PM »
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I think it's kinda ridiculous that the guy was using enough liquid to soak past the edge of the sensor and get between the AA filter and the sensor surface. A small drop of Eclipse on the Sensor Swab, just enough to make it a bit damp, is the way to go, not applying liquid directly to the sensor. The manual doesn't specifically forbid sandpaper cleaning either, but at some point common sense needs to be appled.
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Leigh
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2005, 06:26:13 PM »
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I think it's kinda ridiculous that the guy was using enough liquid to soak past the edge of the sensor and get between the AA filter and the sensor surface. A small drop of Eclipse on the Sensor Swab, just enough to make it a bit damp, is the way to go, not applying liquid directly to the sensor. The manual doesn't specifically forbid sandpaper cleaning either, but at some point common sense needs to be appled.
.

  Anyone who actually read the complaint would be aware that he was referring to a Visable Dust product (Not Photographic Solutions);--- and that he followed their instructions to the letter---applying two drops of fluid to the swab.

  I'm not familar with the composition of the Visable Dust fluid,
but I suspect had he used Eclipse/methanol, with it's near instant evaporation characteristics, the problem would never have occured.

Leigh
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paulbk
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2005, 04:20:43 PM »
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1) Sensor cleaning is risky in the best of circumstances.
2) See an interesting email exchange with the good Dr. Degan of Visible Dust as he flies like a butterfly and stings like a bee.

The danger of cleaning your digital SLR sensor... ouch!
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paul b. kramarchyk
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jani
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2005, 06:03:27 PM »
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If Canon does indeed have openings between any glass element on the chip and the chip itself they should explain that and warn against liquid cleaning. It's as simple as that.
Oh, please. We're not in kindergarden, and Canon shouldn't have to tell us every possible way which we should not clean our sensor. Have you noticed that there isn't any instructions not to use microfiber cloth, and not any instructions not to use a vacuum cleaner, and not any instructions not to use a water hose?

But yes, they do put in some kind of warning.

And here's what Canon writes in the manual for the 20D:

"Note that the image sensor is a very delicate component. If possible, you should have it cleaned by a Canon Service Center."

"4 Clean the image sensor
 * Use a rubber blower to carefully blow away any dust, etc., on the surface of the image sensor."

Also:

"Use a blower not attached with a brush. A brush can scratch the sensor."
"Never use canned air or gas to clean the sensor. The blowing force can damage the sensor or the spray gas can freeze on the sensor."

I think there are some pretty strong hints here that you shouldn't use anything but ... *tada* - a rubber blower.

There is no indication that Canon considers it safe for you to use fluids, and every indication otherwise.

I don't see why Canon should add all sorts of warnings, such as "don't dry your cat in the sensor chamber" (uh, sorry, that was the microwave, wasn't it?). That is completely unnecessary. If people don't understand that they're taking risks by deviating from Canon's instructions, then that's their problem, not Canon's.

Of course, people with experience can sometimes choose to take such risks, because there is a good likelyhood that they will know how to and possess the skill to avoid the dangers.
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2005, 07:56:27 PM »
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Oh, please. We're not in kindergarden, and Canon shouldn't have to tell us every possible way which we should not clean our sensor. Have you noticed that there isn't any instructions not to use microfiber cloth, and not any instructions not to use a vacuum cleaner, and not any instructions not to use a water hose?
Well, dang it all, I alluz use a good, strong wire brush on the sensor on my 1D-tripleS-Mark-XIX, and it shines up real good. Helps the dynamic range, too. but now it takes a six-hour exposure in bright sunlight to get that single line on the histogram to move to the right of center.      
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etmpasadena
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2005, 08:59:56 PM »
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Wow, so you send it to Canon and all they do is blow on the imager?
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jani
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2005, 04:04:22 AM »
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Still though, legal warnings aside, it's an annoying thing that happened to the guy. He didn't find out about that edge pinhole until the camera was out of warranty.
Yes, that's thoroughly bad luck.

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I wonder what Canon would have done if he had used a liquid based solution and had this problem while it was still under warranty. Would they deny warranty repairs because he had used something other than a blower as per the manual? That's being put between a rock and a hard place.
I guess that depends on the customer service representative, the guidelines he has to follow, and his boss.

But it's not unknown that vendors tend to resist paying up to customers, and try as hard as they can to find fault with the customer before looking at their own product.

Even here in Norway, where pretty strict consumer protection acts are in place, vendors tend to resist, and try to fool customers into believing they don't have those rights.

That being said, I also think he should go to Canon and ask. They might just be nice enough to take it as a fault that was there during the warranty period and fix it anyway, even though I think it's unlikely.
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wjy
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2005, 02:12:52 PM »
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I have to say I have cleaned my 20d sensor at least 5 times with a liquid cleaner and had no problems.  I even know a guy that tried to get dust off his sensor with a light stick tape, (Never try this) Anyway it left some stick on the sensor, He then bought a product called Sensor Swab I think.  It was also liquid based and it did the trick, dust tape stick residue and all.  I've looked at some of his work since then and there is no damage.  It made me feel a little better that if you are careful in cleaning the sensor it can be done, I was amazed that his wasn't ruined.  More durable than we think? I don't know.  It is too bad about what happened to the guy in the emails, but with the cleaner I've used the swab hardly even seems moist, and it doesn't visibly look like there is anough moisture on the sensor after one pass to run anywhere.  Anyway, sending your camera to Canon everytime the sensor is dirty is a ridiculous solution on Canon's part, and the air blowers don't really work in my experience.  All of the companies need to address the sensor cleaning problem (except maybe Olympus) Because if I sent my camera in everytime it was dirty I would only have it about 3 months out of the year.  I guess it would be a busy 3 months.
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2005, 08:58:53 PM »
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I think it's kinda ridiculous that the guy was using enough liquid to soak past the edge of the sensor and get between the AA filter and the sensor surface. A small drop of Eclipse on the Sensor Swab, just enough to make it a bit damp, is the way to go, not applying liquid directly to the sensor. The manual doesn't specifically forbid sandpaper cleaning either, but at some point common sense needs to be appled.

I take your point but not everyone's common sense or expertise is the same. As "wjy" pointed out, Canon's suggested solution doesn't seem workable, as it places buyers in an awkward position. They need to clean something delicate fairly frequently but the manufaturers haven't really provided a good all-round way to do that. Consumers have demanded more in less expensive items.

But it's an age-old question isn't it? How should a maker of anything address the issue of a manufacturing defect (e.g. assuming that there in fact is an edge pinhole) which doesn't get discovered until after the warranty has run out. Car companies have used secret warranties when someone leans on them hard enough. We just have to pray to the gods of quality control, I guess.
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