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Author Topic: Nec 2960 for photo editing?  (Read 25085 times)
MichaelEzra
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« on: May 13, 2008, 09:47:28 PM »
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I am trying to choose an LCD monitor most suitable for photo editing using Wacom tablet. The tablet I have is 9"x12" and I am used to using it on 4x3 20" CRT with dot pitch 0.24mm.

- With NEC 2690 I have a concern of a larger dot pitch of 0.28 mm

- With NEC 3090 the concern is that the same 9"x12" tablet has to correspond to a much larger screen and precision of using a pen must be doubled.

- With Samsung XL-24 a primary concern is that I cannot find any review!Smiley and the price for 24", basically same as 30" NEC 3090


It would be very helpful if anyone could share their view of experience on a similar transition.

Thanks,
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Czornyj
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 01:33:53 AM »
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I am trying to choose an LCD monitor most suitable for photo editing using Wacom tablet. The tablet I have is 9"x12" and I am used to using it on 4x3 20" CRT with dot pitch 0.24mm.

- With NEC 2690 I have a concern of a larger dot pitch of 0.28 mm

- With NEC 3090 the concern is that the same 9"x12" tablet has to correspond to a much larger screen and precision of using a pen must be doubled.

- With Samsung XL-24 a primary concern is that I cannot find any review!Smiley and the price for 24", basically same as 30" NEC 3090
It would be very helpful if anyone could share their view of experience on a similar transition.

Thanks,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=195617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't care that much about the dot pit pitch. LCD is much sharper, so in reality - when you edit a picture - you see more details than on a higher dot pich CRT.

Samsung XL-24 seems to be an usual panel with LCD backlight - powerful engine doesn't make a sports car, and LCD backlight doesn't make a monitor for color-critical applications.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 01:34:24 AM by Czornyj » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 07:52:13 AM »
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Samsung XL-24 seems to be an usual panel with LCD backlight - powerful engine doesn't make a sports car, and LCD backlight doesn't make a monitor for color-critical applications.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=195650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If anything, LED backlighting is far harder to accomplish correctly as we saw with the quite excellent and very expensive (and discontinued) NEC.

Plus the lack of anything from Samsung from day one in terms of seeing this unit (and the fact that when I was shown it under NDA, it was being calibrated by a huey) would make me dismiss this unit for the time being.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 07:52:47 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 08:44:41 AM »
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Samsung XL-24 seems to be an usual panel with LCD backlight - powerful engine doesn't make a sports car, and LCD backlight doesn't make a monitor for color-critical applications.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=195650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Samsung XL-24 has an LED backlight.  In theory its capable of producing more accurate color than the typical flourescent backlights.  As Andrew states though no one has seen one in the wild so its a mystery how it actually performs.
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MichaelEzra
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 09:18:35 AM »
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thank you all for the replies.

- In general, how suitable is 30" for editing, retouching, etc.? I realise that it is great for viewing images, but Photoshop will probably run much slower during editing as it would require to redraw more pixels at 2500x1600 vs 1900x1200.

- Does anyone has experience in using 9"x12" tablet with 30" widescreen?
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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 09:45:42 AM »
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Michael I don't know about the 30-inch NEC, but take note that the 2690wuxi covers 92% of the Adobe RGB gamut.  That might (or might not) be of more consequence to you than the extra 4 inches of screen space.

Nill
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Czornyj
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 09:49:11 AM »
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The Samsung XL-24 has an LED backlight.  In theory its capable of producing more accurate color than the typical flourescent backlights.  As Andrew states though no one has seen one in the wild so its a mystery how it actually performs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=195681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In theory backlight is not capable of producing any color

LCD backlight may have better spectral characteristic (I guess), and it may have the possibility of white temperture calibration (in case of that Samsung - rather not).

But the color accuracy also depends on LCD matrix, and on the way it may (or may not) be calibrated.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 09:49:52 AM by Czornyj » Logged

jerryrock
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 10:44:43 AM »
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LED backlighting for LCD monitors is not a dead technology. Currently companies like Apple are using white LED backlighting for their laptop displays and ipod products. While this technology is not necessarily more color accurate, the thought is that it provides more even backlighting at a lower energy cost when compared to CCF backlighting.

Professional LED monitors like the NEC LED (not discontinued) and the current Samsung line, utilize adjustable RGB LEDs for LCD backlighting providing a greater degree of color accuracy and much wider color gamuts than CCF backlit monitors.

NEC MultiSync LCD2180WG-LED $3299.99
http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/

The Samsung XL24 and XL30 are larger and improved models based on their original XL20 model which has been reviewed many times. The technology is no mystery.  The new versions ship with the Xrite eye one display2 calibrator.

http://www.samsung.com/us/pdf/XLseries_Datasheet_LR.pdf
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct....rodid=MO-073-SA
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article784-page1.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/dis...0inch-4_25.html
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 10:45:02 AM by jerryrock » Logged

Gerald J Skrocki
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 12:21:49 PM »
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LED backlighting for LCD monitors is not a dead technology. Currently companies like Apple are using white LED backlighting for their laptop displays and ipod products.

MAJOR difference in building a white LED for back light and what's far more useful in terms of controlling the backlight, three colored LED as we saw in the NEC unit. Just cooling that beast was a big deal.

NEC MultiSync LCD2180WG-LED is no longer being manufactured.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 12:22:38 PM »
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Michael I don't know about the 30-inch NEC...

I should have one next week if all goes as planned.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 02:48:01 PM »
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I use a 9x12 Wacom with a NEC 2690 and find no problem at all. Everything maps smoothly. I had a 30" ACD before this and didn't really have any issues with that, although I think I prefer the working distance of the 26" vs. the 30".
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digitaldog
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 05:42:39 PM »
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- In general, how suitable is 30" for editing, retouching, etc.? I realise that it is great for viewing images, but Photoshop will probably run much slower during editing as it would require to redraw more pixels at 2500x1600 vs 1900x1200.

I'd hope any modern graphic card that can drive it would drive it plenty fast. In the old days (Photoshop 3), redraw was sometimes an issue. Today, the cards are so powerful, I don't know anyone who comments about redraw speeds. My Mac's got 512 mb of Vram, which seems like overkill.
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Andrew Rodney
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MichaelEzra
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2008, 12:25:42 PM »
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This is the information I recceived in the chat session with NEC tech support when asked a question, "in how many bits is the information being processed inside the display":

"the reason for 8 bit processing is because we use Gammacomp that convert the 8 bit data from the computer to 12 bit"

I wonder if that means 12 bit LUT with 8 bit processing... whatever that  means...
A salesperson in B&H told me that he found out that NEC is using 14 bit processing...

Eizo advertizes 12 bit LUT with 16-bit processing.

What is this "processing" anyway?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 12:30:08 PM »
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This is the information I recceived in the chat session with NEC tech support when asked a question, "in how many bits is the information being processed inside the display":

"the reason for 8 bit processing is because we use Gammacomp that convert the 8 bit data from the computer to 12 bit"

Everything coming in (and out) is 8-bits, that's as true for Eizo as anyone else.
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Andrew Rodney
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MichaelEzra
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 06:48:38 AM »
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I bought  2690 yesterday and need to say that it is very easy for the eyes.  Everything islarger on this screen and I can sit further away. I calibrated it yesterday without Specrtaview (as still evaluating and did not buy it) and Eye One Display 2 using GM software. Color gamut  is basically Adobe RGB (see screenshots).

The only troubling issue is color and brightness non uniformity! Even with ColorComp On at level 5, see attached image. THis was shot while displaying a black image full screen.

I wonder if this is "normal" for this moniotr or did I just get the bad one?
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WillH
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008, 09:25:43 AM »
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Michael

The ColorComp uniformity compensation only works on levels above black. So it will even out the screen when you look at grey or white screens, but do absolutely nothing for a black screen.  Since you can't subtract light from black on the screen, and adding any light would ruin the contrast ratio, there is nothing the control can do.

The S-IPS panels do exhibit a "color leakage" in blacks when viewed off axis. However you are gaining superior (lack of) off-axis gamma shifts compared to other types of LCD panels.

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The only troubling issue is color and brightness non uniformity! Even with ColorComp On at level 5, see attached image. THis was shot while displaying a black image full screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Will Hollingworth
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NEC Display Solutions of America, Inc.
MichaelEzra
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008, 10:03:24 AM »
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Will,

Thank you for that information. I have a few questions, and would greatly appreciate your first-hand input.

- Do you think the color leakage that this monitor is exhibiting will be similar acros most nec 2690-s and another nec 2690 will be very similar?

-what about 3090?

- Another question, what should be the expected black level on this monitor at about 120 brightness output?

- A few users reported that brightness output of 140 is a "sweet spot" and would provide smaller deltas and better accuracy. Is that a recommended setting?

- what would be the optimal brightness output setting for a balance between accuracy and longevity of the monitor?

Thanks,
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digitaldog
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2008, 03:55:22 PM »
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Quick update, my 3090 arrived today. Its HUGE! Going from the 2690 to this, I didn't think it would be that much different but man, it really is. On the Mac, the old window sizes are sticky once you view on a new unit, everything seemed so small. The purity on this unit is especially good for a display this big (of course first thing was to turn on Gammacomp and calibrate the unit). So far, what's not to like? Did I mention its HUGE?
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Andrew Rodney
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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2008, 04:04:38 PM »
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Cool.  The 3090 is sRGB like the 2490, right, not almost-Adobe RGB like the 2690?

Nill
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digitaldog
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2008, 04:06:36 PM »
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Cool.  The 3090 is sRGB like the 2490, right, not almost-Adobe RGB like the 2690?

No, its a wide gamut like the 2690.
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Andrew Rodney
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