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Author Topic: new MF back for photokina  (Read 46094 times)
bryanyc
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2008, 02:17:52 PM »
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I don't know about you all, but I am going to hold out for the 150Mpx version, where 20 shots will fill your hard drive, and you'll need 48MB of RAM to open a file in photoshop, and 98 MB RAM if you intend to use layers. I'll buy two of those.

By the way, does anyone know what the average resolution of photo paper is? As in, how much actual data will stick to the page of say, a 16x24 print?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That should work great on my mac pro since I have 8 gigs of ram making 48 mb just a wee portion.

Seriously, why do you think anyone ever shot 4x5 or 8x10 cameras??  I regularly print at 36 x47": how much "data" do you think will stick at that size?
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Gigi
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2008, 02:17:55 PM »
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I think most shooters would like to see Capture speed increase
Bigger and better LCD
Higher ISO's that perform well at 1600 and maybe more

I would think these three would be the most wanted features, with maybe a couple mores small things.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203146\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

anybody want to mention price?
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Geoff
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2008, 02:33:21 PM »
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That should work great on my mac pro since I have 8 gigs of ram making 48 mb just a wee portion.

Seriously, why do you think anyone ever shot 4x5 or 8x10 cameras??  I regularly print at 36 x47": how much "data" do you think will stick at that size?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Er, that's right, I meant 98 GIGS!  

I don't know how much data sticks at any size.
Anyone??

You ever compare traditional c- prints 48" or so from 4x5 or 8x10 film to your digital ones?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 02:34:58 PM by 203 » Logged
Mort54
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2008, 02:46:15 PM »
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I didn't mean it in a critical way, am just curious. I can't think of a compelling need for this feature.
I also would like to see live preview, on a decent back LCD, without the need for an attached laptop. The reason, for me, is to simplify use of the back with technical cams, to avoid the need to use a ground glass or attached viewfinder to support composition, and to avoid the need for a ground glass for precision focussing. Not many people have such bodies, however, so I could see why it might not be high priority to Phase.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2008, 02:55:35 PM »
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I also would like to see live preview, on a decent back LCD, without the need for an attached laptop. The reason, for me, is to simplify use of the back with technical cams, to avoid the need to use a ground glass or attached viewfinder to support composition
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203169\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok, I can understand that, but it's so easy to capture a frame and see it on the LCD screen a second later to check composition. Fine focus is another matter, but I imagine most view camera users work tethered. So, I can understand your wish but the number of view camera users who don't want to work tethered must be a niche market.
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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2008, 03:09:57 PM »
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Ok, I can understand that, but it's so easy to capture a frame and see it on the LCD screen a second later to check composition. Fine focus is another matter, but I imagine most view camera users work tethered. So, I can understand your wish but the number of view camera users who don't want to work tethered must be a niche market.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Live preview is not just for view cameras!  Anyone doing macro, landscape, street or even architectural photography would have a field day with properly implemented live preview.  Shoot, anyone doing manual focus would love it.  It is a shame that 35mm DSLRs smoke the high end back makers in live preview functionality.  Anyone using it on a Nikon D3 or Canon 1D knows what I am talking about.

It is also a joke that the feature to level the + backs is only available tethered.  Any landscape photographer that has used the Nikon D3 will tell you that is one of the best new features.  Try reading a bubble level without your reading glasses in pre-dawn light.  Maybe I'm getting too old to shoot outdoors.  
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abiggs
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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2008, 03:12:06 PM »
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Live preview is not just for view cameras!  Anyone doing macro, landscape, street or even architectural photography would have a field day with properly implemented live preview.  Shoot, anyone doing manual focus would love it.  It is a shame that 35mm DSLRs smoke the high end back makers in live preview functionality.  Anyone using it on a Nikon D3 or Canon 1D knows what I am talking about.

It is also a joke that the feature to level the + backs is only available tethered.  Any landscape photographer that has used the Nikon D3 will tell you that is one of the best new features.  Try reading a bubble level without your reading glasses in pre-dawn light.  Maybe I'm getting too old to shoot outdoors.   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The power requirements of a MFDB is tons more than a 35mm, and therefore I wouldn't anticipate live view without being tethered.
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Andy Biggs
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2008, 03:13:14 PM »
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It is also a joke that the feature to level the + backs is only available tethered.  Any landscape photographer that has used the Nikon D3 will tell you that is one of the best new features.  Try reading a bubble level without your reading glasses in pre-dawn light.  Maybe I'm getting too old to shoot outdoors.   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Leaf Aptus does offer an adjustable grid function un-tethered. It's a nice feature for this very reason.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2008, 03:22:29 PM »
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I thought the Plus series had Live Preview..?

And I agree
WHERE is the new glass and WHERE are the LEAF SHUTTER LEN"S!!!
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203140\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
PhaseOne announced earlier this year that the leaf shutter lenses would be presented at photokina, I'm pretty sure I've told you this before, on this very forum.
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klane
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2008, 04:01:51 PM »
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60mp??

I understand a select few would welcome this, but without the glass to back it up what is the point?

Would the rodenstock hr lenses even support this?  

I would think that leaf and phase ones best selling back are the a65 and p30+

Makes you wonder why they think a back priced x2 the amount when the core audience is very aware of the limitations would buy it...

Also logic would tell me that kodak wouldnt go to the trouble of making such a high priced sensor for one company...I could be wrong though.

Either way I would rather see new innovations than a pissing contest of megapixels.
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TMARK
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2008, 04:09:39 PM »
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I would be psyched with a 60mpx sensor.  My front of book 1/4 pagers for Allure would look even better!  I could spend MORE TIME downsizing than I do now when I print pages for my 11x14 book, not to mention the pure joy of shopping in the Apple Store for one of those Octa Core machines I would need to move data around!

I'll pass.  I'm sure someone will find a use for it.  Landscapers could appreciate the added file size, but who else?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 04:10:54 PM by TMARK » Logged
jeff Liao
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2008, 04:10:07 PM »
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"New full frame 6x4,5 sensor"     60mm x 45mm?      56mmx42mm?

does this mean we can not use Rodenstock HR lens on this new back?

J
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rainer_v
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2008, 04:52:00 PM »
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"New full frame 6x4,5 sensor"     60mm x 45mm?      56mmx42mm?

does this mean we can not use Rodenstock HR lens on this new back?

J
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
all are rumours only ( how many very reliable phase dealers "promised" a hy/afi adapter for sure ? so where is it now ? ) i see no reason for any headage,- but ... the HR have 70mm minimal image circle.  they should work with a 42x56 chip, although not allowing much shift anymore.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 04:54:30 PM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2008, 05:01:38 PM »
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I think some of you might be forgetting that MP is an area measurement, not a linear measurement.  The actual resolution difference in the jump from 39 MP to 60 MP would be roughly the same as that from 26 MP to 39 MP.  Plus, I would bet that some of it is from exaggerating the MP count; 60,000,000 pixels is actually 57.2 MP.
I seriously doubt that a 1.2 times increase in resolution is going to make your lenses worthless.
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Natasa Stojsic
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 06:45:54 PM »
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New full frame 6x4,5 sensor and + 60 Mpix for photokina; that's what told me my Phaseone dealer last week.
Best regard's
Jeff
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[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I mentioned it here last month or so, but nobody new nothing so I thought I heard wrong  


Hopefuly, P30+/P45+ will be faster, Better ISO, screen larger (better quality), more affordable too... Oooops, I wish
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 06:46:46 PM by Natasa Stojsic » Logged

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[span style='color:gray']PHASE[/span][span style='color:skyblue']ONE[/span] [span style='color:gray']P30[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']+[/span][/span]| [span style='color:red']MAMIYA[/span] [span style='color:gray']645 AFD II [/span]  [span style='font-family:impact'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:#98AFC7'] | 28mm f4.5 D. AF | 35mm f3.5 AF | 55-110mm f4.5 AF Zoom | 80mm f2.8 AF | 120mm f4.0 MF Macro | 150mm f3.5 AF[/span][/span][/span]
paul_jones
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2008, 06:47:30 PM »
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I think some of you might be forgetting that MP is an area measurement, not a linear measurement.  The actual resolution difference in the jump from 39 MP to 60 MP would be roughly the same as that from 26 MP to 39 MP.  Plus, I would bet that some of it is from exaggerating the MP count; 60,000,000 pixels is actually 57.2 MP.
I seriously doubt that a 1.2 times increase in resolution is going to make your lenses worthless.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203200\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes, i think thats the way to think about it. p45 isnt twice as sharp as a p25.

im all for more for more megapixels, for some uses. but i do think we will be hitting a ceiling soon.

also, the full frame will be really nice for viewing- that will make the h1 (and i guess the hy6) the big view finder options over canon mk3 again. its a bit of a surprise when you remove the crop mask of an h1 and look through the way it was suppose to be.

paul
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 06:51:19 PM by paul_jones » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2008, 07:07:23 PM »
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I don't know about you all, but I am going to hold out for the 150Mpx version, where 20 shots will fill your hard drive, and you'll need 48MB of RAM to open a file in photoshop, and 98 MB RAM if you intend to use layers. I'll buy two of those.

By the way, does anyone know what the average resolution of photo paper is? As in, how much actual data will stick to the page of say, a 16x24 print?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Might need something like this to work on the files
[a href=\"http://gizmodo.com/5015730/emperor-workstation-belongs-in-the-death-star-my-office]http://gizmodo.com/5015730/emperor-worksta...-star-my-office[/url]
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 07:07:41 PM by snickgrr » Logged
BJNY
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2008, 08:21:54 PM »
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I would think that leaf and phase ones best selling back are the a65 and p30+

I've been told a few times by MFDB sales reps and resellers
that the highest megapixel products are the best sellers,
by far.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 08:24:23 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2008, 09:02:58 PM »
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I've been told a few times by MFDB sales reps and resellers
that the highest megapixel products are the best sellers,
by far.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203244\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is true, but it is due more to price on those particular products, (P30, Aptus 65, and now H3DII-31). What was exposed from the last few batches of digital backs is that the slightly higher premium for larger sensors (49 x 37, 22MP, Upper teen $ - low $20K) vs higher resolution (44 x 33, 28/31 MP, low $20K - mid $20K) was not acted upon. Instead, users chose the lower cost, but higher resolution (and more sensitive) sensor.

But also, until Hasselblad dropped the price on their H3DII-31, most of my H3DII sales were H3DII-39. This is because the price delta between H3DII-31 and H3DII-39 was not dramatic enough ($26,995 vs $33,995). This also explains to some degree why Hasselblad made such a significant price adjustment. Now I will expect - and have already seen - H3DII-31's selling in greater numbers than H3DII-39's.

It is human nature to want the latest and greatest. And despite all the "Oh, 22MP is more than enough" protestations when rumors of 30+ megapixel sensors were rampant, the vast majority of purchasers have shunned 22MP, even though it is relatively low in cost.

That said, 60+ megapixels and higher are on the way - at some point. I do feel that without some form of variable resolution selection at the capture stage, digital backs at this megapixel count may be the first crop of high resolution products that do not produce a volume sales advantage over their lower resolution counterparts.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2008, 09:16:49 PM »
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This is true, but it is due more to price on those particular products, (P30, Aptus 65, and now H3DII-31). What was exposed from the last few batches of digital backs is that the slightly higher premium for larger sensors (49 x 37, 22MP, Upper teen $ - low $20K) vs higher resolution (44 x 33, 28/31 MP, low $20K - mid $20K) was not acted upon. Instead, users chose the lower cost, but higher resolution (and more sensitive) sensor.

But also, until Hasselblad dropped the price on their H3DII-31, most of my H3DII sales were H3DII-39. This is because the price delta between H3DII-31 and H3DII-39 was not dramatic enough ($26,995 vs $33,995). This also explains to some degree why Hasselblad made such a significant price adjustment. Now I will expect - and have already seen - H3DII-31's selling in greater numbers than H3DII-39's.

It is human nature to want the latest and greatest. And despite all the "Oh, 22MP is more than enough" protestations when rumors of 30+ megapixel sensors were rampant, the vast majority of purchasers have shunned 22MP, even though it is relatively low in cost.

That said, 60+ megapixels and higher are on the way - at some point. I do feel that without some form of variable resolution selection at the capture stage, digital backs at this megapixel count may be the first crop of high resolution products that do not produce a volume sales advantage over their lower resolution counterparts.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203250\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On this I somewhat disagree with you Steve, at least in regards to the Hasselblad and the P30+.

I went with the P30+ not for the reduced cost or reduced sensor size, but because it had better high iso qualities and because it looked fractionally smoother than the 22mp chips.  There was also the added benifit of less moire.

I don't want, need, let me put this again, want higher mpx than 20 to 30, but the only thing that would get me to change from the p30+ if there was a 1.1 (excuse me 1.16) crop instead of the 1.3 (excuse me 1.26) crop.

More real estate would be worthwhile, if only to make my lenses a little less squeezed.

In fact I think cropping that 31mpx sensor was a mistake and medium format had a big chance to offer a big one up on 35mm with a microlensed sensor in 1.1 size, especially if they held to a good price.

I don't think you can underestimate how important higher iso is for a lot of work photographers who specialize in people.   Higher iso on a medium format back, already working with a slight bellows factor and  slower lenses makes a huge difference and unlike most of the iso tests we see on the forums, when we need higher iso, it's usually because the light levels have fallen and we're barely at the last point of getting the shot.



JR
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