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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus 65 for $13,995!  (Read 21124 times)
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2008, 05:09:19 PM »
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PhotoZ.  You have more brand loyalty than a NASCAR fan.

Whatever you say, James. I'm not all pro MFDBs. I believe that we should have MUCH better LCD screens, and faster frame rates.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 05:29:01 PM »
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Whatever you say, James. I'm not all pro MFDBs. I believe that we should have MUCH better LCD screens, and faster frame rates.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm not being critical of you as I know you like your Sinars, but telling these people that it's all ok doesn't move them or us up one single notch.

Manufacturers spend way too much time looking for the good PR and not enough time addressing what they might think is the negative.

They love to hear I love my Sheepskin 12 with it's 3 second frame rate and posterized lcd because it makes me a more "thoughtful" photographer, but in reality they are rarely standing there next to you, when your knee deep in water and  shove the back of the camera into a clients face and say "looks good . . eh?" and the client says "I don't know, I really can't see that much".

Now since you love Sinars I think maybe you should write them a suggestion and that is to fire whoever does the Sinar Bron site and put something up that looks a lot better and has real information on it.  That is almost impossible to look at it and think it's intent is to sell one of the most expensive cameras on the planet.

Secondly for all the makers, stop producing the real info on a pdf.  I hate downloading pdf's just to see a single piece of information like lens options.   I probably have 2 billion pdfs on my laptop and I don't want to open them much less find a way to catagorize them.

If I can build a website page in 30 minutes for a client to review then they can also.

Also, how about posting prices around the world, then we wouldn't have threads that start with sales messages about price specials.

JR
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RobertJ
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 05:41:55 PM »
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The RED company and the camera itself have been successful because RED is NOT Canon, Sony, JVC, or Panasonic.

A camera like RED could've been created YEARS ago by Canon, Sony, whoever, and could've been in a consumer type video camcorder body, for a decent price, but did anyone actually do it?  Nope.  Why?  Because Canon, Sony, JVC, and Panasonic can make more money by offering little to no improvements and sticking to their current line of cameras, and this weird HD thing we've come up with (the biggest blunder in history, we could've made HD MUCH higher resolution, but we ended up with 1920x1080, a whopping 2 megapixel image.. wow).

The RED company had an idea to say "F$%& YOU" to all of these companies, and they were successful.

A company like RED does not exist in the still photography world, let alone, the Medium Format Digital world.
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 06:14:52 PM »
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the high price of DMF backs was alway justified by the high cost of the chips....but the chips we are seeing  in the backs these days are already a couple of years old and so far nothing is on the horizon afaik...
kodak or dalsa can't tell me that the chip they had to sell for 15000 3 years ago still has to carry the same price? canon/nikon have advanced at a much faster pace and they pretty much give away their last generation chips...
i honestly don't care about the whole thing anymore...i am glad to see the prices for the 30mpix backs come down where they really should be....and really those are the backs that can do ANYTHING...no excuses...still does not make anyone a better photographer...
when someone comes out with a 6x4.5 or 6x7 back with 30mpix at 2frames/sec no buffer, i will be interested again....hopefully by then the whole screen joke is in the past as well....
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 06:33:56 PM »
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I'm not being critical of you as I know you like your Sinars, but telling these people that it's all ok doesn't move them or us up one single notch.

Agreed. I have already been posting here about improvements I'd like to see.

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but in reality they are rarely standing there next to you, when your knee deep in water and  shove the back of the camera into a clients face and say "looks good . . eh?" and the client says "I don't know, I really can't see that much".

Agreed again. Clients can only understand what they see, and the LCDs don't impress. Luckily most of us shooting with ADs shoot tethered, and that is much more client-friendly.

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Now since you love Sinars I think maybe you should write them a suggestion and that is to fire whoever does the Sinar Bron site and put something up that looks a lot better and has real information on it.  That is almost impossible to look at it and think it's intent is to sell one of the most expensive cameras on the planet.

I'm not in that region so I never look at that site. However I have stated before that most dealers sites leave a lot to be desired (this is across all brands) and I have written the same thing directly to Sinar.

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Secondly for all the makers, stop producing the real info on a pdf.

Can't disagree with this either. PDFs should be an option, but the info should always be on the site.

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Also, how about posting prices around the world, then we wouldn't have threads that start with sales messages about price specials.

Again, a dealer issue, not the manufacturer. I'd also like to see clearer pricing but the prices are up to the individual dealers. The manufacturers should probably require minimum standards from dealers concerning price and information availability on the websites. I have also suggested this in the past. I can only assume that some dealers don't want to be seen as box movers and resist.

Seems we actually agree on a few things today
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2008, 06:46:35 PM »
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The RED company and the camera itself have been successful because RED is NOT Canon, Sony, JVC, or Panasonic.

A camera like RED could've been created YEARS ago by Canon, Sony, whoever, and could've been in a consumer type video camcorder body, for a decent price, but did anyone actually do it?  Nope.  Why?  Because Canon, Sony, JVC, and Panasonic can make more money by offering little to no improvements and sticking to their current line of cameras, and this weird HD thing we've come up with (the biggest blunder in history, we could've made HD MUCH higher resolution, but we ended up with 1920x1080, a whopping 2 megapixel image.. wow).

The RED company had an idea to say "F$%& YOU" to all of these companies, and they were successful.

A company like RED does not exist in the still photography world, let alone, the Medium Format Digital world.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well yes but the Red doesn't have dealers, so I'm sure there is some savings there.

This whole thing is silly and video (up until the red) was the same as stills.  Small incremental changes to keep moving you forward, just not enough changes to let you stay in one place for a while.

Personally, I'm set also and though my next purchase will probably be a RED, for stills it would take something pretty wild to get my attention.

I also don't mind contributing to these forums as long as they don't become one long sales message.

After all, starting this thread with a for sale price on an Aptus is pretty damn bold.  I wonder how it would be received if one of us started a thread For Sale, Aptus 22, $8,000?.

JR
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2008, 07:14:59 PM »
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After all, starting this thread with a for sale price on an Aptus is pretty damn bold.  I wonder how it would be received if one of us started a thread For Sale, Aptus 22, $8,000?.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203699\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It would be received well by me if it were in the "for sale" section.

I would personnally be in favour of including the promotional messages about new MFDB in the "for sale" section rather than in the MFDB section.

I  guess that the reason why it is sort of tolerated in the MFDB section is that these backs have been suffering a certain lack of clarity in terms of pricing etc... until now, and that prices being clearly set and announced is therefore sort of a relevant "news" in itself the MFDB world?

Once this becomes comon practise (and I clearly hope that this trend will continue), it goes back to plain advertising, the kind that we would not want to see in the other forums of LL IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2008, 09:05:34 PM »
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You are dead right, Bernard.

I have myself avoided to publish prices here, and even on the for sale section (am actually a 100% active in this MF digital section only).
But there were so many criticizing about prices and the lack of information, James being the first. And now those publishing and informing are criticized.

As I said it, one can never do it right.

I guess that all manufacturers and dealers here are ready to follow rules, if there are rules set. But don't put us at the point of your gun if we are open with prices now.

Best regards,
Thierry

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It would be received well by me if it were in the "for sale" section.

I would personnally be in favour of including the promotional messages about new MFDB in the "for sale" section rather than in the MFDB section.

I  guess that the reason why it is sort of tolerated in the MFDB section is that these backs have been suffering a certain lack of clarity in terms of pricing etc... until now, and that prices being clearly set and announced is therefore sort of a relevant "news" in itself the MFDB world?

Once this becomes comon practise (and I clearly hope that this trend will continue), it goes back to plain advertising, the kind that we would not want to see in the other forums of LL IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2008, 10:12:04 PM »
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You are dead right, Bernard.

I have myself avoided to publish prices here, and even on the for sale section (am actually a 100% active in this MF digital section only).
But there were so many criticizing about prices and the lack of information, James being the first. And now those publishing and informing are criticized.

As I said it, one can never do it right.

I guess that all manufacturers and dealers here are ready to follow rules, if there are rules set. But don't put us at the point of your gun if we are open with prices now.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Man, you know that I meant the makers should have published clarity of their base prices on their own websites.  Same with the dealers.

There is a big difference to that than the dealers putting the latest time stamped special on this section.

It just runs off any conversation, but feel free, go ahead publish all you want because it's not my site, but don't think anyone that clicks on here looking to have any form a meaninful dialog and seeing dealer headlines listing prices won't just click right off.

I personally know and have purchased from two of the dealers that are the most prolific (not because of this site btw) and I know it's just tit for tat.

One does it, the next one does it, one does it again.  Michael should charge them banner ad rates and quite honestly since Michael is kind enough to keep a hands off approach, it just continues.

Then someone asks what camera they should buy and it just starts back up.

One says the blad goes to 800 iso, the next one says the phase does 1600, the next one says the blad will soon go to 1600, then next one says Leaf has a buy a back get a free body offer, the next one says trade in any camera and get 5 grand off.

If this was a secret I guess you could call it "information",  but I get about 4 spams a day from dealers and camera makers that list all of these specials.  Funny thing is I normally read them here first.

Once again, that's fine, but you know as well as I if any individual starts pushing equipment for sale here is going to be a lot of requests to move it down the page.

Personally I don't think it puts medium format in the best light to have all of these time stamped specials, but then again I don't sell cameras.

JR
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 12:32:29 AM by James R Russell » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2008, 10:26:27 PM »
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I also don't mind contributing to these forums as long as they don't become one long sales message.

After all, starting this thread with a for sale price on an Aptus is pretty damn bold.  I wonder how it would be received if one of us started a thread For Sale, Aptus 22, $8,000?.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203699\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't really have the time to actually go through all my posts and the posts of others like me to see the ratio of sales messages vs actual usable information, but I believe it is actually quite small in comparison.

I only listed the Aptus 65 promo because A] it was such a steep drop and B] it furthers the adjusting of entry level medium format in the downward direction, which I believe is significant. It's true - medium format has obstacles for unit growth, but the price is one of them.

I have no problem following whatever guidelines are applied for this site as well as any preferences of the contributing membership. I don't think there's anything wrong with starting a thread For Sale, Aptus 22, $8,000 as you say James, but that thread would likely be in the For Sale category. Perhpas promotions, anouncements (the few that you are inundated with), etc should be moved to the For Sale section.

I'd have no problem with that if that is what is decided best suits the needs of this forum.

Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2008, 10:35:05 PM »
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FYI James,

- I am well aware of the difference of publishing here and on a website. I am just saying that one can never have it right.

- I have also informed you, after you complained about the lack of any prices on the websites of the distributors, that there ACTUALLY was a price list on SBI's site. That concerns Sinar, of course. And I have given the link to it. But you seem not to have heard or noticed it. It is sometimes good to give credit when it is deserved, not always criticizing.

- I am personally AGAINST publishing any prices here, but have done it a few times, mea culpa, since one has done it, then another, and so on, BUT ONLY WHEN ASKED.

Frankly spoken, James, it is very difficult to please and get it right with you. I say it how I feel it.

This being said, I think it is Michael's place. He is a generous person and has shown this in many occasions. I am sure that he has seen prices posted here, and I am sure that he will step in to stop it, if he feels it necessary. And I believe everybody here will agree with his decision and follow rules.

Best regards,
Thierry



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Man, you know that I meant the makers should have published clarity of their base prices on their own websites.  Same with the dealers.

There is a big difference to that than the dealers putting the latest time stamped special on this section.

It just runs off any conversation, but feel free, go ahead publish all you want because it's not my site, but don't think anyone that clicks on here looking to have any form a meaninful dialog and seeing dealer headlines listing prices won't just click right off.

I personally know and have purchased from two of the dealers that are the most prolific (not because of this site btw) and I know it's just tit for tat.

One does it, the next one does it, one does it again.  Michael should charge them banner ad rates and quite honestly since Michael is kind enough to keep a hands off approach, it just continues.

Then someone asks what camera they should buy and it just starts back up.

One says the blad goes to 800 iso, the next one says the phase does 1600, the next one says the blad will soon go to 1600, then next one says Leaf has a buy a back get a free body offer, the next one says trade in any camera and get 5 grand off.

If this was a secret I guess you could call it "information",  but I get about 4 spams a day from dealers and camera makers that list all of these specials.  Funny thing is I normally read them here first.

Ebay has less commerce going on than this section.

Once again, that's fine, but you know as well as I if any individual starts pushing equipment for sale here is going to be a lot of requests to move it down the page.

Personally I think all of this just makes medium format look desperate and doesn't add to any real information about the equipment.
JR
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2008, 10:44:13 PM »
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I think at a minimum, under the posters name, it should say 'DEALER,' instead of 'regular' like it does now, just so people know who they are talking to. Or maybe the dealers could have a different color or type or something. I think it's nice that there are dealers/vendors who at times come on to clarify specs, prices, etc., but I have been contacted off-line due to my posting on this site too, and it feels a little creepy.
To be clear, I do think the presence of vendors (& maybe dealers) ads value to this site, and it's far better than just having end users here speculating about whats to come.
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2008, 11:06:40 PM »
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I think at a minimum, under the posters name, it should say 'DEALER,' instead of 'regular' like it does now, just so people know who they are talking to. Or maybe the dealers could have a different color or type or something. I think it's nice that there are dealers/vendors who at times come on to clarify specs, prices, etc., but I have been contacted off-line due to my posting on this site too, and it feels a little creepy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree, having it say dealer or something would be a benefit. From the start, I have always wanted more disclosure here. At least first names or something. 203, if I sign dealer, will you at least sign your first name? I realize 203 could actually be your first name....yes I had that happen once, someone emailed me and I asked their real name, and it was in fact their real name. This is an international, world-wide forum, after all.

I also agree about the creepiness of un-solicited off-line dealer contact. I'm not saying I'm an angel, but I believe when someone posts and says they're thinking about a medium format back, and dealers fall over themselves contacting that person off-line, it's presumptuous. I feel response to requests are acceptable, or if some pertinent information is volunteered.

I actually began posting to on-line forums back with the Rob Galbraith forum. I had visited and seen many posts that were not accurate about the equipment. So, I began posting just to correct the information or lend an opinion. It is true that I and I'm sure other dealers have benefitted by members who have contacted us in trying to find a reputable source for these products. I have to admit I had no idea at first that would happen, and for sure it is appreciated. I have always and still do feel very much like a guest here - it is a place for photographers and I do want to contribute, but I don't want to be an unwelcome presence by any means.

Steve Hendrix/Dealer
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2008, 11:47:33 PM »
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Man, you know that I meant the makers should have published clarity of their base prices on their own websites.  Same with the dealers.

There is a big difference to that than the dealers putting the latest time stamped special on this section.

It just runs off any conversation, but feel free, go ahead publish all you want because it's not my site, but don't think anyone that clicks on here looking to have any form a meaninful dialog and seeing dealer headlines listing prices won't just click right off.

I personally know and have purchased from two of the dealers that are the most prolific (not because of this site btw) and I know it's just tit for tat.

One does it, the next one does it, one does it again.  Michael should charge them banner ad rates and quite honestly since Michael is kind enough to keep a hands off approach, it just continues.

Then someone asks what camera they should buy and it just starts back up.

One says the blad goes to 800 iso, the next one says the phase does 1600, the next one says the blad will soon go to 1600, then next one says Leaf has a buy a back get a free body offer, the next one says trade in any camera and get 5 grand off.

If this was a secret I guess you could call it "information",  but I get about 4 spams a day from dealers and camera makers that list all of these specials.  Funny thing is I normally read them here first.

Ebay has less commerce going on than this section.

Once again, that's fine, but you know as well as I if any individual starts pushing equipment for sale here is going to be a lot of requests to move it down the page.

Personally I think all of this just makes medium format look desperate and doesn't add to any real information about the equipment.
JR
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I realize that you are only speaking for yourself, but then the forum is viewed by lots of people who have interests in information that may not always be the same as yours. Some people might be interested in learning about promotional offers or price changes from manufacturers. They might even be interested in learning what that new camera system or back series, which has been discussed on the forum for months before any production model has shipped, is officially priced at when it actually has started to ship. Some folks that come here to discuss what these tools are and are not capable of doing, might also be curious about how much they cost.

Sure, sure, sure... they could find the pricing somewhere else, but then a great deal of information exchanged here could be found somewhere else. Michael has provided a forum here in which the atmosphere is pretty free and conversational and largely self-regulated and respectful. By and large, it works very well and when it doesn't he will step in to set it right. Now given that it is a conversational atmosphere, I'm not surprised that in a conversation about high-tech gear the subject of price comes up in the discussion. This has certainly been my experience, especially when new products hit or major price changes occur. The posters that have begun a conversation by starting a thread regarding a new promotion or prices for new products have generally been selective, reasonable, judicious and tactful, but that's just my opinion.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2008, 12:23:45 AM »
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I realize that you are only speaking for yourself, but then the forum is viewed by lots of people who have interests in information that may not always be the same as yours. Some people might be interested in learning about promotional offers or price changes from manufacturers. They might even be interested in learning what that new camera system or back series, which has been discussed on the forum for months before any production model has shipped, is officially priced at when it actually has started to ship. Some folks that come here to discuss what these tools are and are not capable of doing, might also be curious about how much they cost.

Sure, sure, sure... they could find the pricing somewhere else, but then a great deal of information exchanged here could be found somewhere else. Michael has provided a forum here in which the atmosphere is pretty free and conversational and largely self-regulated and respectful. By and large, it works very well and when it doesn't he will step in to set it right. Now given that it is a conversational atmosphere, I'm not surprised that in a conversation about high-tech gear the subject of price comes up in the discussion. This has certainly been my experience, especially when new products hit or major price changes occur. The posters that have begun a conversation by starting a thread regarding a new promotion or prices for new products have generally been selective, reasonable, judicious and tactful, but that's just my opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=203735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tech,

I agree with you, most of the dealers are cool about the way they give info, but some of the info is selling, maybe that's ok with most, actually it's ok with me, except we all know it will eventually get out of hand.  It always does when there's money involved.

Theirry,

I agree, I'm hard to please and want to see a lot from all of my resources.   I'm a photographer so that pretty much goes with the job description, but then again for you that should be a good thing because if I was easy to please I'd never buy but one camera in my life.

In regards to Steve, who I know pretty well, I think a lot of him, have purchased some smaller items from him and if I ever went to one of the camera brands he sells he'd be my first call.

So in a way I stand corrected, but in another way, I also stand by my original thoughts that you can't have it both ways, you can't sell cameras and then get your feelings hurt if someone says, hey man I think your selling cameras today.  You can't make your living off a brand or even multiple brands and not have some form of bias.  That's just logical.

 I think it would be good if these forums could be more about the art of photography and how we produce that art, than just about how much a camera back costs of if there are special offers today.

Once again, it is Michael's forum and I appreciate that it's here and respect that it's his to moderate or run in any way he choses, so any opinion I have pretty much starts and stops with me, it goes nowhere else and shouldn't.

Still, if I was given my choice I would love to see everyone's real name.  Not especially to add photographic validity, or to prove they're a good artist, business person, brick layer, or  dentist, but just so we have some idea of the intent.

Tech, you especially have a lot of very pro things to say about hasselblad and it's probably just that you are a straight up knowledgable photographer that uses hasselblads, but then again you could be their Public Relations manager.  None of us know.



JR
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2008, 12:36:42 AM »
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That sums it well up, James.
Agreed.

Thierry

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Tech,

I agree with you, most of the dealers are cool about the way they give info, but some of the info is selling, maybe that's ok with most, actually it's ok with me, except we all know it will eventually get out of hand.  It always does when there's money involved.

Theirry,

I agree, I'm hard to please and want to see a lot from all of my resources.   I'm a photographer so that pretty much goes with the job description, but then again for you that should be a good thing because if I was easy to please I'd never buy but one camera in my life.

In regards to Steve, who I know pretty well, I think a lot of him, have purchased some smaller items from him and if I ever went to one of the camera brands he sells he'd be my first call.

So in a way I stand corrected, but in another way, I also stand by my original thoughts that you can't have it both ways, you can't sell cameras and then get your feelings hurt if someone says, hey man I think your selling cameras today.  You can't make your living off a brand or even multiple brands and not have some form of bias.  That's just logical.

 I think it would be good if these forums could be more about the art of photography and how we produce that art, than just about how much a camera back costs of if there are special offers today.

Once again, it is Michael's forum and I appreciate that it's here and respect that it's his to moderate or run in any way he choses, so any opinion I have pretty much starts and stops with me, it goes nowhere else and shouldn't.

Still, if I was given my choice I would love to see everyone's real name.  Not especially to add photographic validity, or to prove they're a good artist, business person, brick layer, or  dentist, but just so we have some idea of the intent.

Tech, you especially have a lot of very pro things to say about hasselblad and it's probably just that you are a straight up knowledgable photographer that uses hasselblads, but then again you could be their Public Relations manager.  None of us know.
JR
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2008, 01:33:20 AM »
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That sums it well up, James.
Agreed.

Thierry
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Well, thanks but there is a flip side to this.

Right now I think it's obvious that medium format digital capture is in a fight for it's life.

The market doesn't seem to be increasing that much (I have no figures that is just a guess) but the complexity, costs, of the systems don't seem to reflect the real world use in a lot of situations.

Now before someone shows me a 200% crop of a nose, or a bean can to prove a point,  let me be really clear that I will probably use a medium format camera as long as they are made.

the value in a large file, the ability to tether professionally, rename, sort, batch correct, shoot on large multiple monitors from 30' away, the depth of the file, the sharpness of no aa filter, the ability to work deep in post production,  far surpass the costs and the slowness of working with a medium format back.

Regardless of my preferrences and  this is rarely mentioned here in this forum, professional photography is probably also in a fight for it's life.

Today there are more very good professional photographers than ever before and many come from schools with $200,000 educations and some form of personal finance that allows them to take a deep breath and mold their career in planned steps.

Starting photographers have the ability to instantly see what their peers and compeitors are doing weeks after the shoot, so the ability to learn, keep abreast of current trends, emulate, even copy is there for the looking and that changes the whole process.  It now doesn't take 2 years to see what the best in the world are doing, it only takes a few minutes.

My website gets a million hits in a few months and I don't know (or care who's looking) but i'll bet the majority are aspiring photographers.

Right now there are more magazines on the stands than ever before, but the flip side is  editorial rates and fees haven't risen for nearly two decades.  Wedding photographers in marginal markets can make more profit in a day than someone that shoots the cover of an international fashion magazine.  (Not in all cases, but in some).

There are also more shifting asthetics than ever before.  The flicker Generation is among us and has pretty much thumbed their nose at crafted lighting and posed imagery.  They are the free spirit run and gun types. Using a Canon 5D and on camera flash and this level of investment does not make for a growing professional photography equipment industry and don't think that this is not becoming part of our new visual base.

Still, and I mean this will all of the best intentions, I hope medium format raises their game.

I would love to hear a maker answer the lcd question with yes, in two weeks we'll have one that surpasses even the best of the dslrs.  I would love to have someone really rock my camera world with a multiple format camera.  turn in on it's side and it crops 2x3, turn it the other way and it's 4x3, set your color look and film in the computer and lock it into the camera, tethered or un tethered.  Better yet, set the exact film look "in" the camera and wifi the preview to every type of hand held device sold.

I would just be all over myself for fast F2 lenses and leaf shutters, throughout the range and most importantly get a look from digital that really emulates film regardless of the lighting or the ambient color conditions  without spending 45 minutes an image in photoshop, before we begin to retouch.

I could go on, but I'd probably just bore myself and everyone else in the room, but if one thing is clear about the professional photography business, is it's not easy and probably won't get any easier.  Be realistic, print is slowly losing viewership and the web is gaining and if you've ever tried Apple TV you can see how close real convergence could be.  

For medium format to continue in an ever tightening market it's going to take more than a price cut.

Yes, I'm glad to see the 30 something megapixel backs coming down in price but would be happier still, if someone offered something that I absolutely had to buy to make my final product better.

We all talk about price, but I don't want to see all of these backs come down to fire sale prices.

That's the business model for the stock industry and we all can witness how well that works.

So, if it seems like some of us are asking for the moon, well we are, but it's not just the moon, it's also the stars and everything in between, because as of today that's what our clients are asking us for.




JR
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 01:35:35 AM by James R Russell » Logged

mcfoto
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2008, 02:26:23 AM »
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Hi James
We were just at the APPA's, AIPP annual photography awards up in Brisbane this month. The AIPP has mostly wedding photographers along with commercial & advertising ones as well. Besides Gay & myself I only knew of one other photographer that uses MFD. Everyone else is shooting with 35 digital. At the awards night one photographer won an award using a Canon point & shoot! Go back 15-20 years, all these wedding photographers had a MF kit. Now they are excited to shoot @ iso 12,000 with the new D3! At the show the big stands were from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Adobe, Epson, Apple, while only three MFD makers were represented at this show. For example @ the Canon stand they had a huge range of cameras & lenses that you can hold, focus, touch ect so anyone can play with them.

Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2008, 07:31:56 AM »
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I just realised:

10 years ago, 8"x10" was the highest quality available.
5 years ago most were shooting on 4"x5", the image quality was "close enough" to the former.
I guess around the same time, a lot of photographers were going DMF,
saying: the quality is equal to 4"x5" and film-based medium format.
Now digital 35mm is so close to DMF, that we see 35mm vs. DMF discussions every week.

Maybe DMF is going the same route as 10"x8" and 4"x5"? Photographers seem to disregard the additional IQ for a lighter, cheaper tool while deeming the other factors beneficial but (economically?) irrelevant.

Like James said, DMF-makers are really in the fight of their lives. Give us something revolutionary and relevant or see your company reduced to a footnote in photographic history.
That's about the size of it.

regards,

Mike
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2008, 08:06:33 AM »
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I agree that it's nice to know people's names too. And I was at one time registered here under my own name. Problem arises when potential clients, agents, friends, etc. Google my name, and they get thousands of inane posts about shadow noise showing up. What I want when people Google me is my web site, and maybe some other relevant information, some photos maybe.

You know how people pay Google to have their site show up on the first page of results? Well, I am making en effort to ensure that my personal web site does not come up on page 37, while the first 36 pages are artful discussions about '3-D' cameras between pixelsurgeon, pixelpeeper, madcamerguru, and me.

So I am not trying to hide my identity from you all, but I am trying to hide my posts, and replies which quote my posts, etc., from Google.  If someone knows way to prevent that form happening, let me know.

(as a side note, I do try to post images here on occasion so that people can see that I am a real live photographer, with at least a minimum of skill. And many here know who I am due to the images I have posted, which are also on my site...in any case, you want ot know who I am , ask me and I'll tell you off line.)

If you look at the bottom of the main LL page right now and check the current active users, there's a good chance that one of then is Google.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 08:57:50 AM by 203 » Logged
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