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Author Topic: Hasselblad Users Wanted  (Read 14047 times)
Meesh
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 07:34:35 PM »
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this part...

please explain how anyone was forced out of a 20-30k investment? if i had a h2 and say a p45, it still works right? or is it because i cant use the 1 lens (28mm) that was made for the h3? i mean that lens wasn't even made when the h2 was made so its not like something was ever taken away. h2 or h1 users bought those cameras with no offerings wider than 35mm, why should they expect a new lens?

some software and hardware doesn't work with vista or leopard, are they closing the system? does it suck? yes it can at times, is it progress? i think so. can people still run os 9 apps on intel machines?

i guess my point to all this is, its the back makers that aren't making backs that work on h3's. there is no law that says phase cant reverse engineer the communication between the back and body and produce one that does work. it probably wouldn't be that hard. i mean someone could even re-write the cameras firmware if they wanted and make it work with the 28! ford, toyota, bmw are they closed systems because they dont hand over engineering data to aftermarket manufactures? no...

not on the swedish payroll by the way, and i do appreciate compatibility and choices, just always thought the closed camera argument was a little fishy, sorry bored today billing is no fun...
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samuel_js
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 07:48:29 PM »
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P.S. I still don't understand the Panic about the H series.  I've never been in a market where you couldn't buy an H-1 or 2  in minutes, so I will bet there are a lot more H series setting on the shelves than their are digital backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The big panic started with the "H" 28mm not being compatible with any of the H1 or H2 cameras. This was a very simple message from Hasselblad: "Not other back or camera than the H3D/H3DII will be able to mount this lens".  Then was the descontinuation of the H2... etc..., etc...
For me they were reasons to sell all my H system. They wanted me to abandon Phase One and I droped them instead... well not my V system but the closed one.

Can you imagin? I owned two H systems, H1 and H2. Both were discontinued in a couple of years while I was using them "as new" while my 10 year old 503CW is still in production and with thousands of accessories I can buy used or new.
Does it make sense?
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samuel_js
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 07:52:48 PM »
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this part...

please explain how anyone was forced out of a 20-30k investment? if i had a h2 and say a p45, it still works right? or is it because i cant use the 1 lens (28mm) that was made for the h3? i mean that lens wasn't even made when the h2 was made so its not like something was ever taken away. h2 or h1 users bought those cameras with no offerings wider than 35mm, why should they expect a new lens?


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A lot of people wanted to use this lens and there was no reason to close the H2 out. And the proof is that the new H2F will be able to mount it just because of a firmware patch.

That's why people burn...
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michael
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 08:24:26 PM »
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Meesh,

Your arguments are neither well thought out, accurate, or well presented, so I see not point in debating this with you further. You're either ignoring or are ignorant of the facts of the matter.

Michael
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jecxz
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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 08:26:12 PM »
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A lot of people wanted to use this lens and there was no reason to close the H2 out. And the proof is that the new H2F will be able to mount it just because of a firmware patch.

That's why people burn...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wait, the H2F will be able to use the 28mm lens? Are you serious?
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Nick-T
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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 08:35:45 PM »
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Does it make sense?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205140\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well despite the negative publicity the move generated it certainly has made sense for Hasselblad, their sales have grown significantly of late.

Nick-T
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James R Russell
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2008, 08:41:22 PM »
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Meesh,

Your arguments are neither well thought out, accurate, or well presented, so I see not point in debating this with you further. You're either ignoring or are ignorant of the facts of the matter.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Michael,

I understand where your coming from but on the other hand it's just the way things are in the digital world, hell even the modern world.  

You know that as well as anyone.  It's true with Software, hardware, even broadband connection.

All the companies are trying to move us to new product any way they can.



JR
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 12:20:43 AM by James R Russell » Logged

Kitty
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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 09:44:33 PM »
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Why I thought Hasselblad is closed system?
You can't mount H3D back on H1 or H2 even H1D or H2.

This makes H1D and H2D body has much less value than it should.
What is the reason? Is it fair to these user?

If something goes wrong with H3D, you are in trouble.

My Fuji GX645 died 2nd time yesterday.
I think H system is not very tough. Shutter life is too short.
Reparing is expensive.
Too bad accurate focus manual adjustable high speed sync of H system is so good.
So that is the trade off.

I don't know what Hasselblad management is thinking.
The new comer should be warning seriously.

kitty
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Dustbak
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2008, 01:01:31 AM »
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Wait, the H2F will be able to use the 28mm lens? Are you serious?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205144\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes! Together with the CF back it will.

Now, I understand people being upset because of the closed nature of the H3. I am not convinced it should be that way as well. I don't understand that people are overlooking the other options you have with Hasselblad, eg. the CF series. The closed nature of the H3 is becoming like the 35mm vs MFDB thing, a beaten to death horse.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 01:06:29 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Dinarius
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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2008, 01:41:15 AM »
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As always on this forum, an interesting thread......

My tuppence worth.....

I believe that the open/closed debate was more relevant in the earlier days of digital. People were gradually migrating from MF film to MFDB and, understandably, wanted both choice and flexibility, without having to break the bank. If possible, they wanted to adapt their existing MF film system to digital. Phase have continued to offer this more than just about any other back maker.

I had been using (and still very occasionally do) Mamiya RB67s for over 20 years. They had paid for themselves many times over and, as Ebay will testify, are worth very little. I could buy a back for them, or I could make a clean break. I chose the latter.

As luck would have it, my timing has been perfect. By upgrading through Canon 40D, 20D, 5D and now IDsMk3, in parallel with shooting 4x5, I have managed to hold off on the purchase of MFDB until this year.

In January, I availed on Hassie's offer of €6k off a H3Dll 39Mp MS. I got it with a 50-110mm, 80mm, spare batter grip and second grid screen. To avail of the offer, you had to trade in any digital camera and a lens. I went out and bought an old Canon lens for €40 and gave them my 40D with it!    I *always* haggle and if I told you what that entire package cost, it would make you weep. It was NOT list. I promise you!

In addition, during the four months I was waiting for the camera to arrive, I had unlimited use of a 39Mp single shot camera with any lens I needed - all free of charge. It meant I could familiarize myself with the system at someone else's expense and without *messing* with my own new camera at this learning stage.

The files from this camera are astonishing, but that's off topic.................

D.

ps. The last time I checked, my 1DsMk3 is a closed system too.    However, I admit it does not suffer from any backward compatability - a very, very bold move by Hasselblad. But, as I wrote above, my timing was perfect, so I haven't been caught by that.

pps. The point made above about it being equally incumbent on the likes of Phase to make decent cameras is very well made.

pps. In 25 years in this business, in terms of bangs for my buck/picture quality/customer satisfaction etc., the best camera I have *ever* owned is the Canon 5D. If the truth be told, it would do the job 90% of the time. But, that's VERY off topic!  
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jecxz
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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2008, 05:13:13 AM »
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Yes! Together with the CF back it will.

Now, I understand people being upset because of the closed nature of the H3. I am not convinced it should be that way as well. I don't understand that people are overlooking the other options you have with Hasselblad, eg. the CF series. The closed nature of the H3 is becoming like the 35mm vs MFDB thing, a beaten to death horse.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205180\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Misunderstanding: I have been considering an H2F body for my bag for long film exposures (since my H3DII39's still can't do more than 32 seconds) and the notion that the 28mm would work with film grabbed me - I thought the H2F was just a film camera.

So will the 28mm work on film in the H2F?
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mcfoto
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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2008, 07:29:11 AM »
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Misunderstanding: I have been considering an H2F body for my bag for long film exposures (since my H3DII39's still can't do more than 32 seconds) and the notion that the 28mm would work with film grabbed me - I thought the H2F was just a film camera.

So will the 28mm work on film in the H2F?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
The Hasselblad 28mm is only designed for the digital chip. It cannot work with film there will be cut off.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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jecxz
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« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2008, 07:44:48 AM »
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Hi
The Hasselblad 28mm is only designed for the digital chip. It cannot work with film there will be cut off.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205213\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you, that is exactly what I thought, but when I read the original post it did not mention a digital back on the H2F - hence my question.

Be well.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 01:15:33 PM by jecxz » Logged

ruraltrekker
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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2008, 07:59:12 AM »
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The big panic started with the "H" 28mm not being compatible with any of the H1 or H2 cameras. This was a very simple message from Hasselblad: "Not other back or camera than the H3D/H3DII will be able to mount this lens".  Then was the descontinuation of the H2... etc..., etc...
For me they were reasons to sell all my H system. They wanted me to abandon Phase One and I droped them instead... well not my V system but the closed one.

Can you imagin? I owned two H systems, H1 and H2. Both were discontinued in a couple of years while I was using them "as new" while my 10 year old 503CW is still in production and with thousands of accessories I can buy used or new.
Does it make sense?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205140\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Had it ever crossed your mind that for the 28 to work correctly that some additions had to be made to the body, creating the H3, that couldn't be retro fitted to the H1/2 to work properly image wise with a digital capture? I am sure there would be a ton of bitching if the lens could work on a H1/2 but without the information being recorded with the file that the H3 does.

Ever heard of the term "bleeding edge"? Well I know it is hard to think of it in the photography world as things moved much slower in the first 150 years but that is what we have now.

How many newly designed from the clean sheet cars are any good at the beginning? Isn't it typical for the first year or so of production to have more than enough flaws, some that don't show until a few years later as the part fails and a redesign is done to correct the problem? Just one example. Hell, even Apple has shown a similar behavior that you seem to be bitching on Hasselblad about.

Now, I currently don't own a Hasselblad but I did shoot them for about 20 years. I may finally buy one again but I chose to sit the sidelines instead of going bleeding edge with 40K.

My 15 bucks...

Ken
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2008, 07:59:52 AM »
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Now this is good!

Quote

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204565\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ian L. Sitren
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2008, 09:51:54 AM »
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Hi
The Hasselblad 28mm is only designed for the digital chip. It cannot work with film there will be cut off.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205213\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's true, Denis, and Hasselblad has stated that the reason is that there would be  compromises in designing the 28mm lens so that it would "work" with the full frame of 6x4.5 film(and without the ability to provide digital correction of lens defects through the Hasselblad software), and these compromises could be most cost effectively solved by designing the lens to work with the smaller digital chip. Is this marketing spin or true? I don't know, but it is a fact that Mamiya's lenses were always priced way lower than Hasselblad's, yet the new Mamiya 28mm lens is way more expensive that the Hassy 28mm. Mamiya's 28 works with film. Was Mamiya able to produce a lens with the same quality as Hassy's, albeit at a much higher price? I have not  seen a head-to-head comparison of the two lenses, but the images I have seen from the Mamiya show a lot of softness at the edges. Perhaps someone without an axe to grind has done this comparison. Love to see it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 02:57:09 PM by hcubell » Logged

samuel_js
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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2008, 02:37:55 PM »
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Had it ever crossed your mind that for the 28 to work correctly that some additions had to be made to the body,

Ken
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do you really believe that the H2F is in any way a redesigned h2? No it isn't, it's a modified H2. Very different things.

The good thing about good cars is that they'll be around almost forever. And repairs cost nothing compared to a DB upgrade/repair.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2008, 03:55:33 PM »
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when H came out with their 28 and when they closed out the older users from using it with their h1 and h2, and when they closed out older backs from the h3 i just was shaking my head and thought that HAS to be their end, because its so barefaced that i really couldnt get it.

but what actually happens is the opposite. hasselblad is among , if not the, most succesfull back/ camera maker. i hardly understand how so many people buy in this system and do not see the activities of this company. this is  telling much about us photographers and about our times.....

similar about leaf:
 today i spoke with a big reseller of leaf, they just had sold ( 2 months ago ) three demo units of the aptus 75 to architecure collegues of mine in munich and its really stunning to know how many backs are still returned and exchanged ( and still is claimed as long as possible the issue dont exist ). two of the three backs are back, one of them the second time. centerfold.
i know, most of you dont see it and it might not be a big deal with cameras as the afi,- but on shift cameras it is still a big deal in a big percentage.  and leaf is able to sell  these backs with a definitive ( in my eyes ) knock out defect product about a whole product cycle!! and they dont sell bad!

i remember phase.
when i was working years ago with kodak chips i contacted phase users and dealers with the horrible color casts i got if i shifted lenses. at that time the lcc correction was not taken into the software and kodak simply said there is no colorshift.
only with my chip. they never have heard of it. this politic they made over several years, although this shifts are system immanent and there is no way to avoid them without lcc shots or similar way of inverting the colors. they simply denied them,- and they sold very well, in that time i believe they have been number one.

for sinar their handling of their software over years sure wasnt a glorius chapter too ,although i escaped of this problem together in helping stefan to designing a own software solution for my needs, because it was immediately obvious that there was no way to make architecture shots with cs.


but .... for my taste the hasselblad thing is the most impertinent and i give 5black stars to them, because its not an issue which you cant solve and with which you dont see another solution than denying it or closing your company ,- its pure money making politic on the back of their customers.
several of the smarter guys here will now say.... well thats ok if it makes the business better.
i cant agree with this .... and i dont work with my clients in this or a similar way.
but: unfortunately H have success. more than the others in the market, as i believe.
crazy.
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rainer viertlböck
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James R Russell
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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2008, 04:05:56 PM »
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when H came out with their 28 and when they closed out the older users from using it with their h1 and h2, and when they closed out older backs from the h3 i just was shaking my head and thought that HAS to be their end, because its so barefaced that i really couldnt get it.

but what actually happens is the opposite. hasselblad is among , if not the, most succesfull back/ camera maker. i hardly understand how so many people buy in this system and do not see the activities of this company. this is  telling much about us photographers and about our times.....

similar about leaf:
 today i spoke with a big reseller of leaf, they just had sold ( 2 months ago ) three demo units of the aptus 75 to architecure collegues of mine in munich and its really stunning to know how many backs are still returned and exchanged ( and still is claimed as long as possible the issue dont exist ). two of the three backs are back, one of them the second time. centerfold.
i know, most of you dont see it and it might not be a big deal with cameras as the afi,- but on shift cameras it is still a big deal in a big percentage.  and leaf is able to sell  these backs with a definitive ( in my eyes ) knock out defect product about a whole product cycle!! and they dont sell bad!

i remember phase.
when i was working years ago with kodak chips i contacted phase users and dealers with the horrible color casts i got if i shifted lenses. at that time the lcc correction was not taken into the software and kodak simply said there is no colorshift.
only with my chip. they never have heard of it. this politic they made over several years, although this shifts are system immanent and there is no way to avoid them without lcc shots or similar way of inverting the colors. they simply denied them,- and they sold very well, in that time i believe they have been number one.

for sinar their handling of their software over years sure wasnt a glorius chapter too ,although i escaped of this problem together in helping stefan to designing a own software solution for my needs, because it was immediately obvious that there was no way to make architecture shots with cs.
but .... for my taste the hasselblad thing is the most impertinent and i give 5black stars to them, because its not an issue which you cant solve and with which you dont see another solution than denying it or closing your company ,- its pure money making politic on the back of their customers.
several of the smarter guys here will now say.... well thats ok if it makes the business better.
i cant agree with this .... and i dont work with my clients in this or a similar way.
but: unfortunately H have success. more than the others in the market, as i believe.
crazy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ranier,

I don't disagree with a single point your making and I know a lot of it just isn't right, but as an agent told me once, do you want to be right or rich?   I replied both, but that's another story.

It's not just Hasselblad though, it's just the current cycle of non stop upgrades from cameras, to computer to software and photographers aren't the only ones effected.

Regardless, I didn't base my camera decsions of whether I liked or disliked Hasselblad, I based them on the fact I just didn't like the camera and the lenses.

Obviously some people feel differently about it.

I still believe the biggest mistake two of the back makers have made is having a fixed mount.

Had it only beenn a $500 quick change to go to another system, I think a lot less H2's and 3's would have been sold.

JR
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 04:07:41 PM by James R Russell » Logged

Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2008, 04:10:58 PM »
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Had it ever crossed your mind that for the 28 to work correctly that some additions had to be made to the body, creating the H3, that couldn't be retro fitted to the H1/2 to work properly image wise with a digital capture?

It is well known that Hasselblad locked out the 28mm with firmware to promote their own line of DBs. There is no other technical reason.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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