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Author Topic: P65+  (Read 90027 times)
markowich
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« on: July 11, 2008, 06:30:47 AM »
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P65+ to be announce on monday by phaseone, 60.5 mpg, sensor size 53,9x40,4, pixel pitch 6x6 micron, 50-800 iso, 1 fps, no info about sensor manufacturer. EC price 26.900 euros +tax. delivery supposed to start in Q4 of 2008.
this is all i know, peter
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Dinarius
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2008, 06:38:47 AM »
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Yawn.....................!  

D.
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michael
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2008, 06:45:58 AM »
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Stay tuned, or if this boars you, go back to sleep. More soon.

Michael
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KevinA
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2008, 06:57:09 AM »
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Stay tuned, or if this boars you, go back to sleep. More soon.

Michael
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I posted in May I'd heard it was going to be 70mp, more interestingly that it could also be shot at half the pixel count, for speed and maybe noise. That would be an interesting feature if it turns out to be true.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2008, 07:01:32 AM »
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I posted in May I'd heard it was going to be 70mp, more interestingly that it could also be shot at half the pixel count, for speed and maybe noise. That would be an interesting feature if it turns out to be true.

Kevin.
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I would hope that it could be shot at lower resolution.  380 meg 16 bit tiff, anybody?  I work with scans that big and bigger, and its a pain on my Mac Pro with 7 gigs and a 10,000 rpm drive.

the real estate is, however, good news.
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TMARK
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2008, 07:10:04 AM »
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I received an e-mail from a a friend of mine, a Phase shooter, who asks simply:  

                "who told Phase we needed 60 megapixels?"

Well, who was it?  Which one of you told Phase 60 was a great idea and what the market demands?

I am however, super-psyched about the fuller (almost full) Frame size.  That is a huge positive.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2008, 07:33:57 AM »
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P65+ to be announce on monday by phaseone, 60.5 mpg, sensor size 53,9x40,4, pixel pitch 6x6 micron, 50-800 iso, 1 fps, no info about sensor manufacturer. EC price 26.900 euros +tax. delivery supposed to start in Q4 of 2008.
this is all i know, peter
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Hi
If true this will be less expensive than the H3D-50 with a larger pixel count + a larger sized chip. To me making the chip larger ( physical size ) is more important than putting more pixels in the same sized sensor. This also makes the lenses closer to 1:1. With the Mamiya AFD film magazine the actual film size is Image Size on film size is 41.5 x 56 mm. The new sensor is 53.9 x 40.4 mm, if true?

Thanks Denis
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 07:47:18 AM by mcfoto » Logged

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Henry Goh
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2008, 07:37:20 AM »
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The only trouble is I'm not sure if those older Mamiya lenses are able to resolve such details.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2008, 07:54:25 AM »
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The only trouble is I'm not sure if those older Mamiya lenses are able to resolve such details.
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Hi
What do you mean by older? The new zooms look very good. Maybe the 35mm & 55-110 could have issues. I think getting MF closer to FF 35 digital is a big step. Plus there are new lenses to come from Mamiya & maybe from 3rd party manufactures to in the future.
Denis
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KevinA
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2008, 07:55:54 AM »
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I know everyone moans about more pixels, I do wonder though if you were shooting with 60 mpx how many would miss the 60 if you had to go back to 30mp. 60 could possibly give better skin gradation in difficult light. I have often wondered with bayer pattern sensors how many green pixels are being used to make a blue sky or blue pixels to shoot yellow cloth etc. Just a thought from someone shooting a tiny 21 mpx on 35 mm.

Kevin.
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markowich
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 08:00:47 AM »
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sorry, just heard that the price my be sightly higher (still under 30.000.- euros), peter
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2008, 08:17:57 AM »
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sorry, just heard that the price my be sightly higher (still under 30.000.- euros), peter
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How much is a P45+ in EU at the moment?

They can be had for 30.000 US$ including the body in the US, which is less than 20.000 Euros if I am not mistaken.

Would the P65+ be 50% more expensive than the P45+, or is it another case of EU citizens being ripped off?

Regards,
Bernard
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free1000
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2008, 08:48:12 AM »
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Given the earlier multiplications I find that the new sensor has a multiplication factor of only 1.06

I think this is close enough to full frame to justify the term

It might not seem much, but the same calculation gives me a multiplication factor of 1.17 for my existing Aptus back which is more than the figure I'd heard in the past of 1.1.

An extra 10% along a dimension is fairly significant when wide angles are a little crushed.

For example, a 45mm lens on this chip would give the equivalent of a 40mm in FOV with the Aptus 75. A 55mm on this chip would be equivalent to a 47 on the Aptus 75.

There would be a fairly significant advantage to eg: a 35mm lens such as a digitar with good coverage as it would give a similar fov to a 28mm lens.

If only this didn't have too many darn pixels it would be great!
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2008, 08:52:32 AM »
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I think that a P25 is the perfect back -- not because it is the one I have : )-- since it has the larger size -so far- with the biggest sensel

P 45 6.8 x 6.8
P 25 9 x 9
P 30 6.8 x 6.8
P 21 9 x 9
P 20 9 x 9

When you get a camera with sensel size 6, are you upgrading or downgrading (from size 9)?

Are we falling in to the consumer trap of going for the pixel count as in "more is better"?

What about diffraction problems?

At least it is probably safe to say that a P 25 will remain a "pure" digital back, and we can tell the client that he is getting one of the best IQ available on a compact file size.

On the other side, this new Kodak sensors have a lot of improvements in the way they are made, if they only had a model with 9 size sensel, full -or almost full- frame that would be what? 30MP ?

That would be the one to upgrade to...
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markowich
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« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2008, 09:02:38 AM »
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P45+ = 26.990.- euros + tax (20% in austria), no body included.
peter

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How much is a P45+ in EU at the moment?

They can be had for 30.000 US$ including the body in the US, which is less than 20.000 Euros if I am not mistaken.

Would the P65+ be 50% more expensive than the P45+, or is it another case of EU citizens being ripped off?

Regards,
Bernard
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TMARK
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2008, 09:08:09 AM »
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On the other side, this new Kodak sensors have a lot of improvements in the way they are made, if they only had a model with 9 size sensel, full -or almost full- frame that would be what? 30MP ?

That would be the one to upgrade to...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Word up Leonardo.
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narikin
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2008, 09:25:01 AM »
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P45+ = 26.990.- euros + tax (20% in austria), no body included.
peter
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if thats really the best price you can get, you guys should come over here to the US and get one for the same price in $ and save oh, about 10,000 Euros...
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TMARK
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2008, 09:28:12 AM »
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I know everyone moans about more pixels, I do wonder though if you were shooting with 60 mpx how many would miss the 60 if you had to go back to 30mp. 60 could possibly give better skin gradation in difficult light. I have often wondered with bayer pattern sensors how many green pixels are being used to make a blue sky or blue pixels to shoot yellow cloth etc. Just a thought from someone shooting a tiny 21 mpx on 35 mm.

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have a P30+ and the last thing I miss when shooting a 5d is file size.  Most of the shooters I know don't want or need bigger files.  The qualification is that we all shoot people for magazines and other print collateral.  In truth, we could all be using 5d's, for the most part.  So 60 megapix seems a waste to me. Hell, 30 seems a waste.  As to tones, only high end printing really shows the better tones and color.  Even with the most beautiful file ever shot, some hack in a prepress department will butcher your image.  Just look at this month's Lucky.  
All that being said, if the pixels can be binned to 30, that's pretty cool.  And for people making large prints and landscape guys, 60 will be welcome.
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JDG
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2008, 09:50:51 AM »
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I think that a P25 is the perfect back -- not because it is the one I have : )-- since it has the larger size -so far- with the biggest sensel

P 45 6.8 x 6.8
P 25 9 x 9
P 30 6.8 x 6.8
P 21 9 x 9
P 20 9 x 9

When you get a camera with sensel size 6, are you upgrading or downgrading (from size 9)?

Are we falling in to the consumer trap of going for the pixel count as in "more is better"?

What about diffraction problems?

At least it is probably safe to say that a P 25 will remain a "pure" digital back, and we can tell the client that he is getting one of the best IQ available on a compact file size.

On the other side, this new Kodak sensors have a lot of improvements in the way they are made, if they only had a model with 9 size sensel, full -or almost full- frame that would be what? 30MP ?

That would be the one to upgrade to...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

One thing you have to consider is that pixel sizes may be getting smaller, but alot of development has gone into them to make them better.  If quality decreased, what would be the point of going bigger?

The Kodak 22mp (KAF22000) sensor was developed something like 5 years ago so to suggest that the only progress we have made since then is making the same pixel quality smaller i think maybe somewhat shortsighted.  If you actually look at the cross section of the pixels between the 9 micron 22mp and the 6.8 micron 39mp chip you see that the the actual pixel well where the light is captured is roughly the same size.  The 6.8 micron pixel has significantly less "deadspace" around each pixel well.  Not to mention that it has a greater ability to produce color gamut.  compare images of the same scene with a 22mp and 39mp back and you will see a real difference.

That being said the P25 really is a fantastic back and for that reason it is still on the market and doing quite well.  but I do think that given the development time for sensors to improve over the last 5 years, I would certainly hope that the new CCDs from Kodak and Dalsa will do much more than just up pixel count of the same quality.
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juicy
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2008, 09:53:51 AM »
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Just wondering how significant the differences are between 22mpx multishot (in 4-shot mode) and the new 60mpx backs when it comes to resolution and colour accuracy in still-life and art-repro applications?

(Just thinking out loud)
Cheers,
J
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