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Author Topic: P65+  (Read 86646 times)
simplify
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« Reply #300 on: July 25, 2008, 07:36:16 PM »
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Please do...
That 12 mp is you could take out an image from any frame of the red and it will be 12 mp quality.
In theory I could shoot a girl jumping once or swinging around her hair and just grab the best frame in the sequence and print it at 12  mp quality?

Snook
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Yes this is where its going.  12mp raw 30 frames per second.  You could just move the camera around and then stitch all the images together to make huge panorama prints or still photos.
The only problem is storage and processing times.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 07:36:47 PM by simplify » Logged
RobertJ
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« Reply #301 on: July 25, 2008, 07:44:24 PM »
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The thing is, the frame will be 16:9 ratio, which is wide, and then you crop to 4:3 and you're left with what?  Plus the sensor is Super 35mm size, which is MUCH smaller than a full-frame 35mm still camera frame size, so the DOF is quite different from even a 5D (it'll be more like a 20D), and way different than Medium Format digital, especially now, with the full-frame P65+.  

Don't get me wrong.  It's nice that you can capture an amazing looking 12MP frame from a video camera.  The RED cinema 4K and 4.5K cameras are a dream for motion capture and filmmaking, but I honestly wouldn't want to use it for capturing stills.  There's much better tools out there for doing that right now, IMO.

The main thing I think is significant is the company itself.  RED is one of a kind.  I like this line on the specs for the new 5K camera:

"FULLY UPGRADABLE SENSOR, BODY, BOARDS AND MOUNT."
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 07:47:07 PM by T-1000 » Logged
Mike W
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« Reply #302 on: July 25, 2008, 07:49:51 PM »
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There is truth to this, but think of the possibilities for online editorials and advertising.

The IQ will no doubt suffice, there's no need for seperate still and motion production, and if print loses its footing (which it will) we'll all be staring at a 16:9ratio all the live long day anyway.

for print, I agree. Might be to little in terms of possibilities. Depends on what you need though...
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simplify
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« Reply #303 on: July 25, 2008, 07:52:25 PM »
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The thing is, the frame will be 16:9 ratio, which is wide, and then you crop to 4:3 and you're left with what?  Plus the sensor is Super 35mm size, which is MUCH smaller than a full-frame 35mm still camera frame size, so the DOF is quite different from even a 5D (it'll be more like a 20D), and way different than Medium Format digital, especially now, with the full-frame P65+. 

Don't get me wrong.  It's nice that you can capture an amazing looking 12MP frame from a video camera.  The RED cinema 4K and 4.5K cameras are a dream for motion capture and filmmaking, but I honestly wouldn't want to use it for capturing stills.  There's much better tools out there for doing that right now, IMO.
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I think the point is, this is the direction photography is heading.  Of course there are better still imaging devices then the Red One camera, but it is a really impressive, innovative tool and at a great price to boot.  It was a huge leap from the video camera's of the past to the Red One.  This company seems to be doing things a bit smarter then the MFDB manufacturers, but what do I know, maybe the manufacturing and R&D costs are very different between the two.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 07:53:01 PM by simplify » Logged
RobertJ
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« Reply #304 on: July 25, 2008, 07:56:42 PM »
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Yes, I'm just talking about present time, but no doubt, this is where everything is headed in the future (maybe less than 5 years?).  Eh, we'll have to wait and see.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #305 on: July 26, 2008, 10:35:18 AM »
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maybe the manufacturing and R&D costs are very different between the two.
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Maybe . . . it depends on who you talk to .  

I hear things like distribution channels, sensor costs, dealer markup/incentives, etc. and depending on who you are talking to, the dealers, the makers, the competition, all have a different story.

I'm not sure what the RED's availability is, but I do know I can go on their site, click on what I want to buy and get a total of everything it takes to go to work.  The front lens mount is interchangeable, the file format is already worked to go into NLE's and most of all the camera looks like it is worth the money.

If RED made a still camera with this type of system, they'd impact the market.

JR
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 12:27:44 AM by James R Russell » Logged

Tim Lüdin
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« Reply #306 on: July 26, 2008, 06:51:13 PM »
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Hi James

If you order a RED today, you wont get it this year. The demand is that high.
I have waited about a year from the day I ordered to when I finaly got it.
I was one of the early birds.
They ramped up their production but it still takes about half a year. But they get faster and faster.
Just some figures:

Sony sold about 5000 high-end HDCAMS over the last 5 years. RED sold about 2200 in just 10 months and has about 3000 more on order. The DB makers should think about those numbers. That happens, when you bring out something realy great or revolutionary.

It could be so easy. Build a great cam at a good pricepoint and people will go crazy.

Tim
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 06:51:33 PM by Tim Lüdin » Logged

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« Reply #307 on: July 27, 2008, 01:24:43 AM »
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Can I buy shares in that company?
It might make me more $ than photography LOL
Regards,
WR
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #308 on: July 28, 2008, 12:55:12 AM »
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maximum  60 seconds exposure , they can keep it and I keep my P45
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TMARK
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« Reply #309 on: July 28, 2008, 03:24:44 AM »
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Hi James

If you order a RED today, you wont get it this year. The demand is that high.
I have waited about a year from the day I ordered to when I finaly got it.
I was one of the early birds.
They ramped up their production but it still takes about half a year. But they get faster and faster.
Just some figures:

Sony sold about 5000 high-end HDCAMS over the last 5 years. RED sold about 2200 in just 10 months and has about 3000 more on order. The DB makers should think about those numbers. That happens, when you bring out something realy great or revolutionary.

It could be so easy. Build a great cam at a good pricepoint and people will go crazy.

Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tim,

The situation with Sony may change.  The EX1 is as good as the 9000 series HDcams, is smaller, lighter, and 1/3 the price.  They are selling lots and lots, at least until the new Red comes out!
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Tim Lüdin
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« Reply #310 on: July 28, 2008, 05:09:27 AM »
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Hi Mark

you are right, the EX-1 is a killer cam.
I worked with it several times and I love it.
The IC is superb compared to the sony high-end machines.
If Sony could develop a better codec that is as thik as the RED RAW then they
would have the cam of all cams.
It's like with DB and the 35mm canons. The DBs are a joy to colorgrade where the normal 35mm options brake apart to early.
As I said it before, Sony could build a RED killer any minute. But they would hurt their own high-end line-up.
They should build an EX-4 with RAW format. That would be great.

Tim
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TMARK
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« Reply #311 on: July 28, 2008, 01:46:47 PM »
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Hi Mark

you are right, the EX-1 is a killer cam.
I worked with it several times and I love it.
The IC is superb compared to the sony high-end machines.
If Sony could develop a better codec that is as thik as the RED RAW then they
would have the cam of all cams.
It's like with DB and the 35mm canons. The DBs are a joy to colorgrade where the normal 35mm options brake apart to early.
As I said it before, Sony could build a RED killer any minute. But they would hurt their own high-end line-up.
They should build an EX-4 with RAW format. That would be great.

Tim
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I think the team that came up with the EX1 would love to build a cam targeting the Red, but that's not how Sony works.  A Red killer is not within the brief of the EX1 team.  It was hard for them to get the EX3 made, what with interchangable lenses, PL mounts, etc etc competes a little too hard with their "higher end" cams.  They might be able to make a RAW shooter, as adding this functionality may be under the radar.

I like that you can trade in the Red One for an Epic when they are released for full credit towards the Epic purchase.  Nice touch.
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narikin
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« Reply #312 on: July 29, 2008, 07:39:23 AM »
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would you guys mind starting a separate thread for the RED/Video discussion?

this one is about Phase P65+ back, and its best to keep it on topic for all concerned, and the broader health of the forum.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 07:39:43 AM by narikin » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #313 on: July 29, 2008, 08:59:28 AM »
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would you guys mind starting a separate thread for the RED/Video discussion?

this one is about Phase P65+ back, and its best to keep it on topic for all concerned, and the broader health of the forum.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Discussing the Red and the new Sony xdcams is germane to the thread, as this thread evolved into a discussion of what the hell the MFDB manufacturers are thinking, and comparisons to the manufacturers of high end video, which has some overlap.  That being said, this is probably not the place to discuss the RED RAW format, Sont battery usage, SyS PCI-X cards, etc.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #314 on: July 29, 2008, 09:20:18 AM »
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Discussing the Red and the new Sony xdcams is germane to the thread, as this thread evolved into a discussion of what the hell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You don't have to be clairvoyant to see where stills can and probably will go.

If you've seen the FX trailer of The Shield, where the lead actor is shot like a still that moves, ramps, and changes to particle dust, you can see the power of the "15 second" still.

After all, we are now viewing 15 second stills on the computer and in some way are moving them, from a mouse click or a page turn.

Everybody I know talks about the viability of print, computers, video, film, etc. etc., and all the conversation about cross over.

To me cross over is not just limited to the type of camera, or the traditional thought of shooting for cinema, or broadcast or print, but the fact that the skill set and talent for shooting a beautiful still can translate into a beautiful moving image, even if the movement is subtle or small.

Let's face it the whole idea of art, either for commerce, editorial, personal or fine art is to grab the viewers attention.

I am not suggesting  the end the still photography, but more the beginning of a combined and new medium.

Once again if you want to sell me a camera, give me something I can't obviously do with my present cameras and the mention of the RED probably does fit into the discussion of medium format backs, considering that the costs and complexity, even workflow are comparable.



JR
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gwhitf
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« Reply #315 on: July 29, 2008, 09:45:10 AM »
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It is a little-known fact that the development of the P65+ back (and the Red camera) was financed by a consortium of both Apple XServe RAID Subgroup and LaCie RAID Subgroup. As they say on TV murder plots, "Follow the money. Who's got the most to gain here?"

On those new 32 gig cards, you can fit a whole 12 action-packed P65+ images on a card. They're trying to give you that vintage feeling of an A12 Hassie back.

Two steps forward, and three steps backward.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #316 on: July 29, 2008, 09:50:18 AM »
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It is a little-known fact that the development of the P65+ back (and the Red camera) was financed by a consortium of both Apple XServe RAID Subgroup and LaCie RAID Subgroup. As they say on TV murder plots, "Follow the money. Who's got the most to gain here?"

On those new 32 gig cards, you can fit a whole 12 action-packed P65+ images on a card. They're trying to give you that vintage feeling of an A12 Hassie back.

Two steps forward, and three steps backward.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The difference between motion and stills is, with the motion industry by the time the RED gets into even moderate play, there will be a professional system for storage, on line and off.  (And a line item on the invoice for said storage).

Us lowly still guys are  still stuck digging around the back of the apple store, buying lacies, G drives and Maxtor Books to backup our 60mb files.

Follow the money?  If medium format really wanted to make some money, they'd come out with their own storage systems.


JR
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TMARK
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« Reply #317 on: July 29, 2008, 10:48:04 AM »
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To me cross over is not just limited to the type of camera, or the traditional thought of shooting for cinema, or broadcast or print, but the fact that the skill set and talent for shooting a beautiful still can translate into a beautiful moving image, even if the movement is subtle or small.

. . .

Once again if you want to sell me a camera, give me something I can't obviously do with my present cameras and the mention of the RED probably does fit into the discussion of medium format backs, considering that the costs and complexity, even workflow are comparable.
JR
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This is what is giving me a wedgie about the new backs and the MFDB market: its the fact that the studio/fashion shooter has the same skill set and similar workflow as videographers, but we make less money per shoot and take on more responsibility and have a harder time with our gear.  There is no reason the guy who produces the Apple iPod dancing silhuette commercials should make $300k per commercial (all in, with usage) while a comperable stills shoot pulls in $75k - $100k, and did I mention the equipment to shoot the Apple commercial is identical, but for the camera systems?  And guess which camera system costs more?  Which is integrated and reliable?

Here is another example of why the stills market place is bassakwards:  When I work as a gaffer I make $2,000 a day.  When people have asked me to light commercial stills they want to pay me like an assistant, maybe $700 a day.  Same skill set.  Almost the same lights.

It just seems insane for the MFDB industry to push these mega expensive backs on the market, when what is needed are lower costs to match market reality, and good camera systems to hang these backs on.  

All that being said, I bet the P65 will be a really nice piece of equipment.  I wonder what people will think of it in 5 years?  Will it be seen as a blunder or the beggining of a brave new world?
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« Reply #318 on: July 29, 2008, 11:14:09 AM »
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All that being said, I bet the P65 will be a really nice piece of equipment.  I wonder what people will think of it in 5 years?  Will it be seen as a blunder or the beggining of a brave new world?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211440\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As a former user of MF equipment for 38 years, who
has now switched to full frame digital I need to add my 2 cents worth.

The rise of the Canon 1dS and its full frame digital progeny decimated the MF
camera world.  The bulk of the MF market was not composed of big time fashion pros likes James Russell.  It was the average wedding and portrait shooter who made Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax and the like.

If the MF makers don't come out with  a sub $10,000 back, which works well,
the whole MF industry will still remain a small niche market.  The Mamiya ZD was an attempt at this which has failed due to its low quality.

The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000.  A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.

It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
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shutay
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« Reply #319 on: July 29, 2008, 11:19:04 AM »
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The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000.  A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.

It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That basically means - as many of us have been thinking anyway - that if only the Mamiya ZD back had been done right, that would have been just the thing and Mamiya would now hold the number 1 spot in terms of backs sold...
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