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Author Topic: P65+  (Read 87805 times)
TMARK
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« Reply #320 on: July 29, 2008, 11:30:41 AM »
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If the MF makers don't come out with  a sub $10,000 back, which works well,
the whole MF industry will still remain a small niche market.  The Mamiya ZD was an attempt at this which has failed due to its low quality.

The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000.  A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.

It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is very true, and is something the market understands.
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TMARK
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« Reply #321 on: July 29, 2008, 11:34:04 AM »
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That basically means - as many of us have been thinking anyway - that if only the Mamiya ZD back had been done right, that would have been just the thing and Mamiya would now hold the number 1 spot in terms of backs sold...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

While the ZD makes a nice file, you have to fight to get there.  That is assuming you get one that works in the first place.  I demoed three different ZD backs and all of them had some sort of problem.  Now that Phase is on board, do you think there will be a ZD II that works?  Probably not.  If it did, who would buy a P21 or even a P30, much less a P25?
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Joe Behar
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« Reply #322 on: July 29, 2008, 11:43:07 AM »
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If the MF makers don't come out with  a sub $10,000 back, which works well,
the whole MF industry will still remain a small niche market.  The Mamiya ZD was an attempt at this which has failed due to its low quality.

The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000.  A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.

It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Brand new P20+ $10,499

Brand new P21+ $11,499

Refurbs at substantially lower prices and if you buy it with a Phase One camera the savings get bigger. As an example, refurb P30 with a brand new Phase ONe 645 AF and new 80mm lens, full 1 year warrany $14,499. Have you shot with a P30 at ISO 400?

These are NOT street prices.
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BJL
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« Reply #323 on: July 29, 2008, 11:52:16 AM »
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The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000. A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.

It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed, but please put blame for the cost where it belongs: on sensor size, not pixel count.

My guess is that what is needed for the "weddings and portraits" market is the pairing of a good quality lens system for some format to a sufficiently affordable sensor in that format. I doubt that full 645 format sensors will never reach that price range and maybe not 48x36mm either. Former "affordable MF" favorite Pentax seemed to be aiming at 44x33mm with its now frozen plans for an integrated 44x33mm sensor body and matching 55mm normal lens. Maybe 44x33 will rise again (with some new lenses), maybe 48x36 will get the new lenses and price cuts it needs, but for now it seems more likely that maybe 35mm will continue its takeover of most of this market. The Nikon D700 seems to be exciting some wedding pros.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 11:53:58 AM by BJL » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #324 on: July 29, 2008, 12:15:27 PM »
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Brand new P20+ $10,499

Brand new P21+ $11,499

These are NOT street prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211461\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why do we have to have street prices versus list? This frustrates me to no end.  I know several people who would like to shoot MFDB but say, "I can't/won't spend $20,000/$30,000 on a back.  That's just stupid."  Well, they could spend under $10k and get a back, but they don't know that.  Since they don't know it and clients don't need MFDB, they happily shoot their 1ds3's and 120 film. People are used to seeing that a 1ds3 is $7,800 on the B&H website, and the camera actually sells for $7,800.  

I read on another forum where a guy got a Sinar Hy6/54LV for a little over $17,500.  I personally, when looking at this cam last year at Fotocare, before the price drop to $22k list, was quoted $28,500. But people are getting them for $17.5 now?  

Tell you the truth, I don't even know what value I should schedule my P30+ on my insurance. The $19,900 list?  The purchase price?  The price I think it would fetch in ebay?  What JR paid for his?  What Mark Tucker got for his when he soild all his MFDB stuff?
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Joe Behar
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« Reply #325 on: July 29, 2008, 12:23:30 PM »
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Why do we have to have street prices versus list? This frustrates me to no end. I know several people who would like to shoot MFDB but say, "I can't/won't spend $20,000/$30,000 on a back. That's just stupid." [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

TMARK,

I agree to an extent. We take the approach that there is more to buying a system than just the price. I know alot of people will disagree with me but....

I think you'll agree that our industry is not the only one that takes this approach. How many here remeber the "call for best price" note in photo magazines or looking at the sticker price on a car and knowing that you'll buy for less most times, or negotiating the purchase of a home, or negotiating with a private seller for photo goods?

The point I was trying to make is that MFDB's are affordable and accessible.

By the way, I think you should insure your P30+ for replacement value, assuming you will get no discount on the price. I would also suggest that you review the insurance value of your equipment regularly. If the price has dropped you should drop your insurance accordingly and save a few bucks.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 12:26:33 PM by Joe Behar » Logged
jing q
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« Reply #326 on: July 29, 2008, 12:29:07 PM »
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TMARK,

I agree to an extent. We take the approach that there is more to buying a system than just the price. I know alot of people will disagree with me but....

I think you'll agree that our industry is not the only one that takes this approach. How many here remeber the "call for best price" note in photo magazines or looking at the sticker price on a car and knowing that you'll buy for less most times, or negotiating the purchase of a home, or negotiating with a private seller for photo goods?

The point I was trying to make is that MFDB's are affordable and accessible.

By the way, I think you should insure your P30+ for replacement value, assuming you will get no discount on the price. I would also suggest that you review the insurance value of your equipment regularly. If the price has dropped you should drop your insurance accordingly and save a few bucks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I hate the "call for best price" approach.
I much prefer the B&H way of doing things, I hate bargaining.
Good marketing tactic is to sell things with minimal effort on the consumer's part. Canon knows this.
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Streetshooter
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« Reply #327 on: July 29, 2008, 01:53:28 PM »
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Why do we have to have street prices versus list? This frustrates me to no end.  I know several people who would like to shoot MFDB but say, "I can't/won't spend $20,000/$30,000 on a back.  That's just stupid."  Well, they could spend under $10k and get a back, but they don't know that.  Since they don't know it and clients don't need MFDB, they happily shoot their 1ds3's and 120 film. People are used to seeing that a 1ds3 is $7,800 on the B&H website, and the camera actually sells for $7,800. 

I read on another forum where a guy got a Sinar Hy6/54LV for a little over $17,500.  I personally, when looking at this cam last year at Fotocare, before the price drop to $22k list, was quoted $28,500. But people are getting them for $17.5 now? 

Tell you the truth, I don't even know what value I should schedule my P30+ on my insurance. The $19,900 list?  The purchase price?  The price I think it would fetch in ebay?  What JR paid for his?  What Mark Tucker got for his when he soild all his MFDB stuff?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you kidding people are buying the Hy6 for $17,500 ?  I wonder what the guys who paid full price think about that ?  When will the MFDB makers stop treating their products like the car manufacturers do ? This sort of pricing behaviour is insane and leaves a bitter taste.

Pete
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TMARK
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« Reply #328 on: July 29, 2008, 03:45:28 PM »
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Are you kidding people are buying the Hy6 for $17,500 ?  I wonder what the guys who paid full price think about that ?  When will the MFDB makers stop treating their products like the car manufacturers do ? This sort of pricing behaviour is insane and leaves a bitter taste.

Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A guy says he bought a hy6 camera only and then was offered a 54lv for 10k that was bought and traded in immediatly for a 75lv.

The market for MFDB is small because the manufacturers make it small, knowingly or not.
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BJL
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« Reply #329 on: July 29, 2008, 04:03:51 PM »
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The point I was trying to make is that MFDB's are affordable and accessible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All the examples of "affordable" MFDB's in this discussion have two-generation old sensors with 9 micron cell size giving pixel counts the same as or less than 35mm DSLR's now offer, and the P20+ and P21+ in particular also impose heavy crops on lenses, with their 37x37mm 16MP and 33x44mm 18MP sensors respectively.

And Mamiya ZD back pricing seems to be a matter of the new owners clearing out stocks of a bulk sensor purchase to minimize losses, not an example of a price level at which a MFDB can be profitably offered.

End-of-life prices on backs with sensors that will probably soon be discontinued are probably not a good indicator of what is possible in pricing of new models, or even of viable average price over a MFDB's life-time.
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Studio12NYC
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« Reply #330 on: July 29, 2008, 04:26:11 PM »
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I have been hearing the death of print for ten years.

Print will go nowhere web will be a supplement to print or eventually print will be a supplement to web.  When they can get battery life figured out then we can talk about the death of print.  eBooks and all the digital content is great.  But nothing like a physical thing you can flip through and toss in your bag whether local about town or traveling internationally.

I would be the first one to buy a full color eBook that I could plug into the net via ethernet or obviously aircard and download all my magazines and books for the month.  Download behind the scenes video of photo shoots, behind the scenes interviews, etc..

But the reality, is that print is going nowhere until you can put a battery together that will give you 48 hours of continuous use.  I mean 48 hours of ON time while you are moving between files and magazines, videos, etc..  Come on my iPhone can barely give me two hours of continuous use.

Who ever can design, produce and patent a new battery technology will be the next Rockerfeller, Gates, etc..

Something that is no more than an inch thick and 8x10 in format and full color screen like a macbook air.
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RobertJ
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« Reply #331 on: July 29, 2008, 04:27:51 PM »
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On those new 32 gig cards, you can fit a whole 12 action-packed P65+ images on a card. They're trying to give you that vintage feeling of an A12 Hassie back.

Two steps forward, and three steps backward.

Don't know what you mean here.  Care to explain?

So what you're saying is that a single P65+ RAW file = 2.6GB?

Right...
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Studio12NYC
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« Reply #332 on: July 29, 2008, 04:40:15 PM »
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BTW,

There is a huge editorial shooter here in NYC that was just shooting at Sun the other day with me in the other room.  During a break we were chatting in the Cappuccino bar.  Here I am with my P25, P30 and P45 and he is still shooting with his Valeo on a Contax from five years ago that he bought new.

Loves it and says it has his quirks, but he gets through it.  When he does catalog he is on his ORIGINAL 11mp 1Ds and for editorial and advertising he is on his Valeo 22.  He says he has rented an Aptus for a couple of shoots because the art director thought he knew what he was talking about.

Shot with both cameras and the final selects were done with the Aptus.  I was laughing when we were at the coffee bar.  That is the great thing about people that aren't scared about oooohh am I going to be laughed at.  He could give a shit!

This is a guy who shoots every day for every major Conde Nast publication and Hachette publication.  As well as major beauty campaigns.  it is funny how every one here chases their tale and this guy just shoots.

All I know is that I won't be buying anything for many years to come.  The only thing on my horizon will be the Nikon D700 next week and Nikon's next full frame D3x in January.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 04:41:49 PM by Studio12NYC » Logged
Brady
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« Reply #333 on: July 29, 2008, 05:48:24 PM »
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BTW,

There is a huge editorial shooter here in NYC that was just shooting at Sun the other day with me in the other room.  During a break we were chatting in the Cappuccino bar.  Here I am with my P25, P30 and P45 and he is still shooting with his Valeo on a Contax from five years ago that he bought new.

Loves it and says it has his quirks, but he gets through it.  When he does catalog he is on his ORIGINAL 11mp 1Ds and for editorial and advertising he is on his Valeo 22.  He says he has rented an Aptus for a couple of shoots because the art director thought he knew what he was talking about.

Shot with both cameras and the final selects were done with the Aptus.  I was laughing when we were at the coffee bar.  That is the great thing about people that aren't scared about oooohh am I going to be laughed at.  He could give a shit!

This is a guy who shoots every day for every major Conde Nast publication and Hachette publication.  As well as major beauty campaigns.  it is funny how every one here chases their tale and this guy just shoots.

All I know is that I won't be buying anything for many years to come.  The only thing on my horizon will be the Nikon D700 next week and Nikon's next full frame D3x in January.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



EXACTLY!  It was good enough then, it's good enough now.  All of this is just keeping up with the Joneses.......buy it when you neeeeeeeed it....I mean really need it.  Otherwise you're just throwing money into the wind...I never really understood people complaining about shit changing all the time...yeah, there's something new out there but, doesn't mean you have to go out and get it and waste your money and time on it......do your research. buy once and use the shit out of until it doesn't go anymore.
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John_Black
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« Reply #334 on: July 30, 2008, 04:42:48 PM »
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Brand new P20+ $10,499

Brand new P21+ $11,499

Refurbs at substantially lower prices and if you buy it with a Phase One camera the savings get bigger. As an example, refurb P30 with a brand new Phase ONe 645 AF and new 80mm lens, full 1 year warrany $14,499. Have you shot with a P30 at ISO 400?

These are NOT street prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211461\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If Phase would price the P21+ with a Phase 645 Kit (including the 80mm lens) for $9,999 USD, I think they could really get somewhere.  It's not full-frame (loosely speaking), but it's a decent size.  At $2k above a 1Ds3 price point - it's a viable alternative and I think most people thinking of a 1Ds3 purchase could stretch their budget to cover $9999. With the 80mm kit lens included, it's almost apples to apples if the Canon budget included $1200 for the 50L F1.2.

The new Phase, Hass & Leaf are $40k systems barring whatever discount is applied.  That's so above and beyond a high end dSLR, that it's not even a remotely feasible alternative / choice.  As for Phase's $10,490 for the P20+ kit.  The P20 with a 645AFDII kit was $8,990 18-24 months ago.  Actually, I think the medium format makers have zero interest in courting the sub-$20k market.  Their prices just keep going up and now we're supposed to think $30k-$35k is an okay price point.  
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James R Russell
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« Reply #335 on: July 30, 2008, 04:53:41 PM »
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Their prices just keep going up and now we're supposed to think $30k-$35k is an okay price point.   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211861\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is the first time that a  new back/camera anouncement may mean the worth of my P30+ and P21+ might have gone up  rather than down.

If they keep this up my Contax is going to be worth 10 grand.

JR
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