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Author Topic: Phase One 45mm f/3.5 TS  (Read 25892 times)
hcubell
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2008, 08:15:03 PM »
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Phase One has just formed a strategic alliance with the German based company Hartblei. Hartblei has a record of producing high end tilt/shift lenses for small format and medium format cameras.
Most lens parts and assembly is done at the Hartblei factory in Kiev Ukraine, but several parts and processes are also produced in Germany.

Not to be cynical(sure!), but I think what's done in Germany are the setting of the financial mark-up, the invoicing, the ad copy and the application of the Phase stickers.
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hs0zfe
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2008, 09:47:08 PM »
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The reason for their existence is the superior image quality of MF and MFD.

Who would want to associate a high end digital back with mediocre lenses? It must be that all important lure of higher profit margins. For buyers, things should be cheap and the manufacturers seem to love cheap as well!
********
I once bought a LUBITEL MF TLR for then about $ 40. All plastic, not worth the roll films. Out of the maybe 10 films I exposed, only 1 shot was barely acceptable. A few years later, I threw away waste bins full of junk. Prints and slides. It hurt, but started a new phase. Not quantity but QUALITY mattered. So I used a Linhof Kardan Bi and Hasselblads. Forget the need to take many shots - just get the few you need right.

If the photographers who buy Phase One equipment were putting "cheap" above all, they might be buying a Sony Alpha with some no name zoom lenses.

This is like Porsche offering a sports car with an engine from LADA which based their engineering on a 1960s copy of a FIAT car. Lack of focus leads to terrible errors of judgment. Take VW wanting to conquer the luxury car market. If you had $$$$$$ to spend, wouldn't you want a Lexus, a Mercedes, a BMW or a Maserati or Audi? Selling the Phaeton 12 cylinder car as a VOLKSWAGNEN (people's car) was lunacy. But who ever heard of a high end manufacturer wanting to embrace low end equipment?
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2008, 10:15:40 PM »
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Gents,

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Phase One has just formed a strategic alliance with the German based company Hartblei. Hartblei has a record of producing high end tilt/shift lenses for small format and medium format cameras.
Most lens parts and assembly is done at the Hartblei factory in Kiev Ukraine, but several parts and processes are also produced in Germany.

The general purpose of this Strategic Alliance is to explore opportunities of future lens development for the Phase One 645 camera.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thus, [a href=\"http://www.hartblei.de/]http://www.hartblei.de/[/url], not only http://www.hartblei.com/.

Perhaps we should assume that optics will be very good... but our real worry shall be a much too high price!  

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 10:20:32 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2008, 10:21:54 PM »
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Gents,
Thus, http://www.hartblei.de/, not http://www.hartblei.com/ only. Perhaps we should assume that optics will be very good... but our real worry shall be a much too high price....

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210074\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think we're gonna see much horizontal (long axis) shift out of these lenses.

The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.

Edmund
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2008, 10:54:44 PM »
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The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Huh???  Not sure where you are getting your lenses Edmund, but I have one of those and it is a freaking laser!  Only falls off at the very corners -- call it the last 3mm of full horizontal shift -- and everything in-between is excellent...

 
 ,
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simplify
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2008, 11:06:33 PM »
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Don't forget that Michael did say that Phase would be coming out with a remake hartblei and a new Mamiya/Phase tilt shift to come as well.
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TMARK
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2008, 11:50:20 PM »
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I don't think we're gonna see much horizontal (long axis) shift out of these lenses.

The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The mamiya 50 shift is awesome. I believe in leveling criticism where it is due. The quality of the lens system is excellent. They look real nice and do not have the sharp CZ style of harsh microcontrast. I really like the OOF renderings.  Now what we need are some reissues of the oldies such as the 80 1.9, 50 shift, and a new 110 or 100 f2.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 11:54:48 PM by TMARK » Logged
mcfoto
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2008, 09:12:18 AM »
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Hi
From what I understand about what Phase has done to this lens is the optics will be the same. However the movements will improved & the software from Phase will be an bonus too.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2008, 09:32:18 AM »
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Hi
From what I understand about what Phase has done to this lens is the optics will be the same. However the movements will improved & the software from Phase will be an bonus too.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210145\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

All I'm warning is, test one before you buy. Or get a 30 day return on it, NQA. The movements are very funky, and it seems to tilt in only one direction. Honestly, I never figured it out. If you've ever used a Canon T/S it's a simple joy; a no-brainer, very intuitive. But the Hartbleis, both the 45 and 65, are very Rube Goldberg designs.
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ndevlin
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2008, 09:36:25 AM »
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James, you've nailed it again -- almost all good photographers have a parallel love-affair with their cameras (or some of their cameras) in addition to being devoted to the art.  And there are some cameras which do stir the soul, and others which just pay the bills. Sometimes the two overlap, but that has not happened much in the early digital age, as the cameras have been reduced to large shutter boxes affixed the the digital-alchemy-units behind them.

My 'desert-island-camera' was and is the Mamiya 6 RF. Why? Because it's square, its light, I could hand-hold it almost to darkness, it smelled nice, had the sharpest lenses ever, took my best photograph, walked a thousand miles on my shoulder, got me laid, got me my best jobs, and just felt right in the hand in a way no other gear ever has.  

If I won the lottery, I would pay someone egg-head a $200K to figure out a way to put a digital back on it.  That's what daydreams are for.

But in reality, even $40K buys you last-century designs, with AF roughly on par with the Maxuum 5000, and very, very sore shoulders.  

It is sad that so much (ie: all) of the creative energy invested into camera development has gone into sensors and digiware of late, and so little into the cameras themselves.

Hopefully once the megapixel race has plataued, minds will turn once more to making MF cameras that touch our hearts (and not just our wallets).

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2008, 10:17:33 AM »
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James, you've nailed it again -- almost all good photographers have a parallel love-affair with their cameras (or some of their cameras) in addition to being devoted to the art.  And there are some cameras which do stir the soul, and others which just pay the bills. Sometimes the two overlap, but that has not happened much in the early digital age, as the cameras have been reduced to large shutter boxes affixed the the digital-alchemy-units behind them.

My 'desert-island-camera' was and is the Mamiya 6 RF. Why? Because it's square, its light, I could hand-hold it almost to darkness, it smelled nice, had the sharpest lenses ever, took my best photograph, walked a thousand miles on my shoulder, got me laid, got me my best jobs, and just felt right in the hand in a way no other gear ever has. 

If I won the lottery, I would pay someone egg-head a $200K to figure out a way to put a digital back on it.  That's what daydreams are for.

But in reality, even $40K buys you last-century designs, with AF roughly on par with the Maxuum 5000, and very, very sore shoulders. 

It is sad that so much (ie: all) of the creative energy invested into camera development has gone into sensors and digiware of late, and so little into the cameras themselves.

Hopefully once the megapixel race has plataued, minds will turn once more to making MF cameras that touch our hearts (and not just our wallets).

- N.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I guess it's a lot easier to slap 25million more megapixels in an existing back than it is to build a camera line.

The Harteblei, well as gwfthi says, get a gift receipt with a return promise, because mine is as stiff as a board.  Actually my 45mm is so stiff it almost takes pliers to move it and it gets very little use.

Maybe Phase will do something about the supply line, but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.

It really gives great insight as to why Russia lost the cold war.

As far as Mamiya, well it's not a bad camera but it's still new carpet over an old floor and since the prism doesn't come off, it doesn't have a right angle grip ($900 Nikons have a right angle grip) and it requires a return to get new firmware, it's obviously not anywhere near ground breaking.

If it was bundled as an entry level camera it makes sense, but selling it with the world's most expensive digital back kind of makes me wonder what the marketing thought is on this and once again when you open the case full o' Mamiyas is it going to glow?

The only camera that gets my attention is the HY6 and AFI.  I would prefer it came in jet black and said Rollei on the front but at least it's a real camera, with a series of lenses made on this side of the Berlin Wall, by people that have been making cameras for a long time.

I don't know what Leaf and Sinar are going to annouce to one up Blad and Phase on the pixel numbers, or if they are not coming out with a billion pixel back, then I would suggest they start selling the goodness of the camera.

I'm not to sure about pixels but I know about beautiful cameras.  

JR
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rainer_v
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2008, 10:20:05 AM »
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I guess it's a lot easier to slap 25million more megapixels in an existing back than it is to build a camera line.

The Harteblei, well as gwfthi says, get a gift receipt with a return promise, because mine is as stiff as a board.  Actually my 45mm is so stiff it almost takes pliers to move it and it gets very little use.

Maybe Phase will do something about the supply line, but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.

It really gives great insight as to why Russia lost the cold war.

As far as Mamiya, well it's not a bad camera but it's still new carpet over an old floor and since the prism doesn't come off, it doesn't have a right angle grip ($900 Nikons have a right angle grip) and it requires a return to get new firmware, it's obviously not anywhere near ground breaking.

If it was bundled as an entry level camera it makes sense, but selling it with the world's most expensive digital back kind of makes me wonder what the marketing thought is on this and once again when you open the case full o' Mamiyas is it going to glow?

The only camera that gets my attention is the HY6 and AFI.  I would prefer it came in jet black and said Rollei on the front but at least it's a real camera, with a series of lenses made on this side of the Berlin Wall, by people that have been making cameras for a long time.

I don't know what Leaf and Sinar are going to annouce to one up Blad and Phase on the pixel numbers, or if they are not coming out with a billion pixel back, then I would suggest they start selling the goodness of the camera.

I'm not to sure about pixels but I know about beautiful cameras. 

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2008, 10:33:34 AM »
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I guess it's a lot easier to slap 25million more megapixels in an existing back than it is to build a camera line.

The Harteblei, well as gwfthi says, get a gift receipt with a return promise, because mine is as stiff as a board.  Actually my 45mm is so stiff it almost takes pliers to move it and it gets very little use.

Maybe Phase will do something about the supply line, but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.

It really gives great insight as to why Russia lost the cold war.

As far as Mamiya, well it's not a bad camera but it's still new carpet over an old floor and since the prism doesn't come off, it doesn't have a right angle grip ($900 Nikons have a right angle grip) and it requires a return to get new firmware, it's obviously not anywhere near ground breaking.

If it was bundled as an entry level camera it makes sense, but selling it with the world's most expensive digital back kind of makes me wonder what the marketing thought is on this and once again when you open the case full o' Mamiyas is it going to glow?

The only camera that gets my attention is the HY6 and AFI.  I would prefer it came in jet black and said Rollei on the front but at least it's a real camera, with a series of lenses made on this side of the Berlin Wall, by people that have been making cameras for a long time.

I don't know what Leaf and Sinar are going to annouce to one up Blad and Phase on the pixel numbers, or if they are not coming out with a billion pixel back, then I would suggest they start selling the goodness of the camera.

I'm not to sure about pixels but I know about beautiful cameras. 

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 i think there is a lot of confusion in the comanies what wants and what needs the market.
they get response from 1.000 users, but how to rate which input is valuable and which not?
i dont believe that its more expensive to construct mechanical or optical things than electronics.... its a question on the priorities and if they are seen.
i am happy that a company was listening to my words, regarding the needs of my specific field of work. here i.m.o. the existing ( + expensive ) solutions have been also  way "off" a reasonable workflow ( in my opinion ) that i never could understand why no manufactor wanted to make a architecture camera which is not a big step beyond the "old" 4x5" systems,-  more so because it was obviously visible  how it should have been done.
if it would not be so expensive and existential for us it would simply be ridiculous how blind and technic- paralysed the companies destroy a whole market niche.

b.t.w. .... after touching the new nikon 24pc lens i also couldnt do another thing than shaking my head. no need to try it out, so plastic and unprecise it felt in my hands. its crazy how a big company can make products like this.
maybe its tells more about the time we live in than the specific camera market.
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rainer viertlböck
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ndevlin
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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2008, 10:58:54 AM »
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In Phase/Mamiya's defence, I do have to say that I doubt they'd release any Soviet-era crap with their names on it...not  when they're making 60MP sensors.  Mamiya has been quite conservative about releasing new lenses (such as the much-awaited  28mm and still-awaited 45-90), probably on the grounds that the IQ just wasn't up to scratch yet.  The 28mm is out, and it is outstanding. Similarly, Phase isnèt going to tarnish their reputation, that would be suicidal. Just *how* they will get Hartblei up to scratch, well thatès a whole other story...

As for purpose-built and thoughtfully built MF bodies, Ièm sure something will come along, but it had better be sooner rather than later.  There is so much that could be done so easily to make a great camera. Too bad Apple isnèt in the MF camera business  

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2008, 11:10:02 AM »
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I don't think we're gonna see much horizontal (long axis) shift out of these lenses.

The Mamiya 50 is still around btw, on the used market. Sharp it ain't.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I had a copy that was very sharp, once you focused beyond 10 feet. CA was also well-controlled. My only complaint is that it was a 50mm instead of a 40mm.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2008, 11:42:58 AM »
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i think there is a lot of confusion in the comanies what wants and what needs the market.
they get response from 1.000 users, but how to rate which input is valuable and which not?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Honestly, this one is easy.

If your going to spend $40,000, $50,000, or even $20,000 in an upgrade it better look like it's worth those numbers and it better do a whole lot more than what your using now.

Still, give it spouse check.  Open it up, put it together and place it on the dinng room table and turn to your spouse and say, hey how do you like my new camera?

If he/she says wow, that's beautiful, then your probably on track.

JR
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Rob C
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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2008, 12:16:19 PM »
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Honestly, this one is easy.

If your going to spend $40,000, $50,000, or even $20,000 in an upgrade it better look like it's worth those numbers and it better do a whole lot more than what your using now.

Still, give it spouse check.  Open it up, put it together and place it on the dinng room table and turn to your spouse and say, hey how do you like my new camera?

If he/she says wow, that's beautiful, then your probably on track.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Tried something similar when I bought my latest computer: all I got was a dirty look, and let´s not ever turn to the thorny and decidely painful question about why I traded in my ´blads against spousal advice!

Only thing worse on the wife front would be to turn up with ANYTHING new and connected to photography. She obviously feels that having spent so much of her life working with me, it´s now time to kiss photography goodbye. Trouble is, I agree with her but don´t quite know how to kick the habit.

Rob C
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free1000
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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2008, 12:42:36 PM »
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  I never figured it out. If you've ever used a Canon T/S it's a simple joy; a no-brainer, very intuitive. But the Hartbleis, both the 45 and 65, are very Rube Goldberg designs.

The optics on the Hartblei are not great, theres no debate about that, but the movements are far better than the Canon T/S which I also own. I think that the design is ingenious rather than the 'kludge' you are implying.

However, one does need to spend a little time with the lens to understand how it works, ie: more than 30 seconds but no more than 15 minutes. Perhaps this comes more easily to me because of experience using large format cameras, so I am used to what the movements do.

These are the reasons why I think the Super Rotator has the best movements.

1) Axes of tilt and shift are independently rotatable. For architectural subjects, I don't really use tilt, however its more likely that I would want both tilt and shift on the same (vertical axis) for this purpose.  For landscapes one generally wants these axes at 90 degrees to each other, this can be done in a moment.

2) Shift and tilt does not move out of alignment accidentally, (this often happens with the Canon T/S, so you have to keep checking that you havent accidentally added tilt)

The build quality of mine is good, though the mount is pretty poor, (thats one thing they are fixing).

My only complaint about the Hartblei 45 is that I'd like to be able to read the aperture ring when I am standing behind the camera, I find myself having to crane my neck around to see it.

If only these movements had nice Zeiss glass in them I would shell out my $4000 at the drop of a hat. At the moment this has not been announced, but it would be very disappointing if it were not part of the package at some point in the future. considering the Zeiss/Hartblei tie up.

If the resolution was good enough to match the p65+ sensor then this would be a great lens for interiors. You'd get a wide enough lens for most purposes on the larger sensor size, plus fairly easy shift.  The Mamiya 50 isn't quite wide enough.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 12:45:48 PM by free1000 » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2008, 01:09:12 PM »
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but trying to find someone to fix my Boris is kind of like trying to find parts for a Yugo.

http://www.whatpart.co.uk/parts-105-yugo.html
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free1000
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2008, 01:30:02 PM »
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