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Author Topic: Phase One 45mm f/3.5 TS  (Read 24785 times)
Anders_HK
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« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2008, 09:36:34 AM »
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Uhgg... more info....

http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/w...ilt_shift_lens/

Now the THREE thousand dollar question... is it really worth THREE thousand more than the Hartblei original???  

As an amateur my mind is more and more of eventually a Shen-Hao for 4x5 FILM wide angle use as complement to digital MF... the thought of Fuji Velvia...  

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Anders
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James R Russell
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« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2008, 09:48:02 AM »
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Uhgg... more info....

http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/w...ilt_shift_lens/

Now the THREE thousand dollar question... is it really worth THREE thousand more than the Hartblei original???   

As an amateur my mind is more and more of eventually a Shen-Hao for 4x5 FILM wide angle use as complement to digital MF... the thought of Fuji Velvia...  

Regards   
Anders
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Unless it has much improved Glass or something that the original didn't this is going to be a though sell.

I guess it all depends on the final image quality.

The image on that weblog looks strange, like a stripped down tilt shift, not like the Boris TS I bought for about $700.

[a href=\"http://ishotit.com/superrotator/source/_dsc8722.htm]http://ishotit.com/superrotator/source/_dsc8722.htm[/url]

JR
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tho_mas
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« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2008, 09:59:05 AM »
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Unless it has much improved Glass or something that the original didn't this is going to be a though sell.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
maybe the glass is better:
Quote
Together Phase One and Hartblei have engineered important design advancements with this lens, including:
1. New 2008 batch optical glass with multi-layer coating
4. New interior antireflection coating
I played around with the "old" TS lens for a week... and with the P45 it's desolate. But center sharpness was not totaly bad. Not as good as a Distagon 2.8/45 certainly, but acceptable. So if the new glass has better contrast so that the entire capture frame is illuminated sharp it's maybe a good thing.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2008, 10:05:44 AM »
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maybe the glass is better: I played around with the "old" TS lens for a week... and with the P45 it's desolate. But center sharpness was not totaly bad. Not as good as a Distagon 2.8/45 certainly, but acceptable. So if the new glass has better contrast so that the entire capture frame is illuminated sharp it's maybe a good thing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219176\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I agree if it's a much improved lens it may be worth it depending on what you shoot.

What I don't understand is the information stream on this type of equipment.  

You just can't start selling a brand of lenses at $3,000 that previously went for $700 without some explanation of what the benifits are.

Even if the lens is much more improved, let's be honest, the Boris brand isn't up there with the thought of Leica, Schneider or Zeiss.

It may turn out to be the lens of the century, but before I'd advertise anything I'd sure have some information about the lens including sharpness.

I use the old Boris to make it not sharp, so for that it's great, but if I shot something I had to pull a lot of focus with, I'd want more info.



Personally I don't understand medium format marketing.  Everybody gets all up in arms if you don't say horray, good idea, great, but the bottom line is this equipment is very expensive and more importantly it's used for very expensive production (or should be).

Given all of this, I just don't understand the way all of medium format markets.  There are streams and clips of press releases and banners from small blogs, dealers, forums etc., but no real definative information in one place that gives you what you need to know to make an informed purchase.

Since Hasselblad closed off their camera, it seems everyone's marketing is somewhat of a knee jerk reaction.

What happned to the days when you picked up a camera brochure and there was this schematic of everything you needed to get to work, showing lenses, adpaters, accessories, etc. etc.

Now we get information in bits and pieces and usually the price is way down the line, followed by delivery dates.  Or in this case the price is there but no real information about the lens, at least not in one cohesive form, much less any photographs shot with it.


JR
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:21:50 AM by James R Russell » Logged

tho_mas
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« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2008, 10:13:15 AM »
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You just can't start selling a brand of lenses at $3,000 that previously went for $700 without some explanation of what the benifits are.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
totally agree! Above all if you can get a small Horseman or Cambo with Schneider 47XL for about 5.000,- (if it's the shift you want to use)

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I use the old Boris to make it not sharp, so for that it's great, but if I shot something I had to pull a lot of focus with, I'd want more info.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've seen this series on your webpage and the old TS adds perfectly to that somehow dreamy nostalgic look - very, very nice series!

BTW... it's € 3.000 and $4.000
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Phase One 3.5/45 TS lens costs 2.990€ / $3,990
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:21:21 AM by tho_mas » Logged
lance_schad
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« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2008, 02:02:25 PM »
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totally agree! Above all if you can get a small Horseman or Cambo with Schneider 47XL for about 5.000,- (if it's the shift you want to use)

 I've seen this series on your webpage and the old TS adds perfectly to that somehow dreamy nostalgic look - very, very nice series!

BTW... it's € 3.000 and $4.000
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here is an excerpt from the new press release from phase in regards to the new 45 t/s, there are some improvements as noted. Waiting to see it in person.

Phase One Introduces Tilt/Shift Lens
Based on Collaboration with Hartblei
Copenhagen, September 3, 2008 -- Phase One A/S today announced an exclusive strategic alliance with Hartblei to drive medium format photographic lens innovation. The first product of this alliance is the Phase One 3.5/45 mm TS lens, based on the popular Hartblei 45 mm f/3.5 Super Rotator lens.
Specially designed for the professional photographer, this small, lightweight tilt shift lens is ideal for location or studio applications. It offers up to 12 mm shift and 8 degrees tilt for maximum flexibility.
Together Phase One and Hartblei have engineered important design advancements with this lens, including:
1. New 2008 batch optical glass with multi-layer coating
2. Improved 12 blade aperture design
3. Mechanics with tighter tolerances
4. New interior antireflection coating
5. More streamlined mechanical design
When used with the Phase One 645 camera system, the Phase One 3.5/45 mm TS lens offers a
simple, alternative to more advanced technical cameras. With it, photographers can adjust the plane of focus without changing the depth of field, correct perspective and selectively sharpen and soften an image – quickly gaining creative possibilities that cannot be realized in post-production.
The Phase One 3.5/45 TS lens comprises a simple eight-lens optical system. Each element is coated with a multilayer anti-reflective coating to reduce internal reflections, increase image transmission efficiency
and enhance contrast. The new lens is also is supported by Phase One’s Lens+ and Focus+ optical correction technologies available in Capture One 4.

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]
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LANCE SCHAD - DIGITAL TRANSITIONS - Phase One,Leaf/Mamiya,Arca-Swiss,Cambo value added reseller
direct/cell:610-496-5586  office:877-367-8537 x 224
http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:lns@digitaltransitions.com
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« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2008, 03:41:29 PM »
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Buy Alpa - you get both the shifts and the leaf shutter

Edmund

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$4K lens makeover from a $1K lens should have Zeiss glass instead of a "new batch" of Ukranian glass. Just my personal feelings. Leaf shutter lenses should be Phase's (also Mamiya's) TOP priority over a lens which architectural shooters will do fine for the time being with current technical cameras, many great ones of those out now. While I like the Mamiya 645AFD system(s), Phase gets included in that, the weak link is 1/125th sync.

My main concern with leaf shutter lenses whenever they come out, and IF, is how well they will do with legacy cameras if at all. Because at that point you're just better off buying into the Hy6 family or H series which are a no hassle leaf shutter experience and on par price wise with both Mamiya and Phase's new huge bump in lens prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
ixpressraf
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« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2008, 04:13:32 PM »
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There is no new batch. I used to buy these 35mm and 35/85mm lenses in Ukraine but there are no lenses left. The 45mm hasn't been produced for a long time so they just bought back all stocks to be able to produce( relabel) the Phase lenses. a friend of mine was in the kiev/hartblei factury for me to find some contax mount lenses but they ar all to be refitted for mamiya.
I have one perfectly sharp 45mm but had to get rid of 4 useless examples...
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elitegroup
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2008, 04:40:16 PM »
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$4K lens makeover from a $1K lens should have Zeiss glass instead of a "new batch" of Ukranian glass.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it says on their website the new batch of glass/optics are made by 'Carl Zeiss'

[Quote/] The current prototypes are equipped with lens groups completely "Made in Germany" by Carl Zeiss. These lens groups are being assembled in Germany and embedded into Hartblei barrels made from German special aluminium. [End Quote]

More info at this link [a href=\"http://www.hartblei.eu/en/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm]http://www.hartblei.eu/en/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm[/url]
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2008, 04:53:31 PM »
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Quote from: elitegroup,Sep 3 2008, 04:40 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but it says on their website the new batch of glass/optics are made by 'Carl Zeiss'

[Quote/] The current prototypes are equipped with lens groups completely "Made in Germany" by Carl Zeiss. These lens groups are being assembled in Germany and embedded into Hartblei barrels made from German special aluminium. [End Quote]

More info at this link http://www.hartblei.eu/en/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219279\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We have tested these lenses for a dutch fotoforum but these are not the lenses tah are to be used on a MF camera. They were not bad at all but only fit 35mm camera's. We had all of them ; the 40mm, the 80mm and the macro planar. These are the lenses designed by a german photographer who bought a part of the hartblei name.
The 45mm for MF is just an old russian design. Lenses arent made for years and only supplies are bought to get enough lenses for Phase.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 04:54:47 PM by ixpressraf » Logged
Christopher
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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2008, 05:13:39 PM »
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We have tested these lenses for a dutch fotoforum but these are not the lenses tah are to be used on a MF camera. They were not bad at all but only fit 35mm camera's. We had all of them ; the 40mm, the 80mm and the macro planar. These are the lenses designed by a german photographer who bought a part of the hartblei name.
The 45mm for MF is just an old russian design. Lenses arent made for years and only supplies are bought to get enough lenses for Phase.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219280\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I think we will have to wait and see. I really don't think Phase will sell a renamed lens for 3 times the price. Every new lens they bring out has to be better than the stuff before, otherwise they would lose customers.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2008, 08:37:33 PM »
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bottom line is this equipment is very expensive and more importantly it's used for very expensive production (or should be).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


James,

I agree with what you say, but with comment to above. Lets remember there was a time when cameras and lenses were more affordable (than the latest developments from Mamiya). The medium format players still in the field are changing that and pushing much higher in prices. Why? If digital is so much superior to film, why does it need to cost more? This is tough for us amateurs who seek higher quality than DSLRs and larger media format than the 24x16mm and 36x24mm sensors...

Regards
Anders
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James R Russell
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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2008, 11:27:17 PM »
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James,

I agree with what you say, but with comment to above. Lets remember there was a time when cameras and lenses were more affordable (than the latest developments from Mamiya). The medium format players still in the field are changing that and pushing much higher in prices. Why? If digital is so much superior to film, why does it need to cost more? This is tough for us amateurs who seek higher quality than DSLRs and larger media format than the 24x16mm and 36x24mm sensors...

Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


To some extent I agree, though medium format was always more expensive, film, lenses, and large format even more expensive than that.

The difference was that prior to digital a less expensive camera with good glass, or even a used camera still allowed you to easily use the latest sensor (film).

Now it's different and the digital film is the most expensive element of the package.

Then again it's not all bad  expecially at the amateur level.  If you are cautious and do some research a Valeo 22, an H25, an A 17, even a later model p21 will give you very very close to the same quality as any of the newer backs.  In fact the sensor in most of these is the same as the newer backs, just the convenience and speed is increased, but not that much towards the final image quality.

Adding one of those on a used Contax, or Mamiya or even a first generation H-1 is not that much more than a new Canon and if your shooting for only your own personal work, it probably will last you many years.

JR
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2008, 03:11:16 AM »
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These new 45mm will be better becaurse of the better coatings and smaller tollerances in production but will be made from the same batch lenses out of the 80ies from last centurie. They dont make 45mm anymore but had a huge pile of them laying in warehouses.
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free1000
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« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2008, 04:25:50 AM »
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These new 45mm will be better becaurse of the better coatings and smaller tollerances in production but will be made from the same batch lenses out of the 80ies from last centurie. They dont make 45mm anymore but had a huge pile of them laying in warehouses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wonder how much of a difference coatings would make?

Looking at my old Hartblei 45, there is no sign of ill fitting parts, it seems very well made (admitting that the look of it is not to everyones taste).

So you optical experts out there... how much quality improvement can one get from better coatings?

I assumed it would only improve maybe flare characteristics which would be useful but not address the fundamental issue... that the lens calculations would be exactly the same.

Moreover these are lens calculations are at a fairly extreme point on the spectrum of uses, with the shifting, size of elements etc. Its not a very large front element considering what its trying to do.

I await the reviews with interest but not a great deal of anticipation.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 04:31:26 AM by free1000 » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2008, 05:39:10 AM »
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I wonder how much of a difference coatings would make?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219379\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I saw the note about the new $3995 price tag for the 45ts.

All I'm saying is, before I wrote that check, I'd want to do lots of testing with this "new" lens design.

Also, the physical design of the way it rotates and tilts is very Sputnik-era; let's just say it's not the most elegant efficient design. I guess if you had to have some tilt, it's better than nothing, but compared to the incredible ease of working with the Canon tilts, Canon wins hands-down.

I just shake my head in disbelief at writing a four thousand dollar check for slapping some lipstick on a pig.

Phase -- you gotta love 'em. When backed in a corner, I guess a man's got to fight, but this desperation move of rebadging every Edsel left in the marketplace; well, it just screams of panic to me. Rumors have it that they're now about to get into the automotive business, and they've located every AMC Gremlin on the planet, and they're manufacturing silver Phase logos to slap on the hoods. Revised price: $46,000 USD, for a 1972 AMC Gremlin that's been run through a car wash. New director of "remarketing" at Phase: Fred Sanford.

In terms of long-term quality products, my money is on Sinar, and I never would have said that a year ago. Sinar is listening, and they seem to be delivering.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 05:48:11 AM by gwhitf » Logged
ixpressraf
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« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2008, 06:05:52 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf,Sep 4 2008, 05:39 AM


Also, the physical design of the way it rotates and tilts is very Sputnik-era; let's just say it's not the most elegant efficient design. I guess if you had to have some tilt, it's better than nothing, but compared to the incredible ease of working with the Canon tilts, Canon wins hands-down.


Nothing beats the technical or mechanical design of the Hartblei!!! No canon, nikon or other has te same movements. It are the only lenses that have full 360 degrees tilt and schift rotation independent from eachother. No other lens can do that Canon is always fixed at 90 degrees for example( unless you modifie it in an other angle.
I think it is better to work some time with the lens befor making statements  
I am sure you learn to appreciate that lens, I have all types of them, and lukkely i switched untill I got the perfect ones.
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eronald
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« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2008, 08:48:04 AM »
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Yeah, the issues here seem t ob ethe glass, and of course this is a stop-down lens.

At the prince they're selling them I think Schneider or Zeiss would find it profitable to enter the market.

Edmund

Quote from: ixpressraf,Sep 4 2008, 11:05 AM
Quote from: gwhitf,Sep 4 2008, 05:39 AM
Also, the physical design of the way it rotates and tilts is very Sputnik-era; let's just say it's not the most elegant efficient design. I guess if you had to have some tilt, it's better than nothing, but compared to the incredible ease of working with the Canon tilts, Canon wins hands-down.
Nothing beats the technical or mechanical design of the Hartblei!!! No canon, nikon or other has te same movements. It are the only lenses that have full 360 degrees tilt and schift rotation independent from eachother. No other lens can do that Canon is always fixed at 90 degrees for example( unless you modifie it in an other angle.
I think it is better to work some time with the lens befor making statements  
I am sure you learn to appreciate that lens, I have all types of them, and lukkely i switched untill I got the perfect ones.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219393\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
Mort54
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« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2008, 09:31:59 AM »
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I use a P45+ on an AFD II. The Mamiya body is what it is - a cheap, somewhat obsolete, merely OK body with cheap to expensive, mostly OK lenses (with the new lenses being much nicer). All in all, nothing really spectacular. Competent. Uninspiring.

The problem for Phase One is that the AFD II and III, and most of their associated lenses, are NOT in the same league as their backs. Not even close. And by associating with these merely OK bodies and mostly OK lenses, they diminish shooter's experience with their backs.

There was some talk by Phase One, when the AFD III was released, that this was just a stopgap until they can come out with an entirely new design. Obviously that could just be marketing BS, but it would certainly be nice if true. Now if only Phase One understood the concept of a published roadmap :-)
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« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2008, 10:44:27 AM »
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I use a P45+ on an AFD II. The Mamiya body is what it is - a cheap, somewhat obsolete, merely OK body with cheap to expensive, mostly OK lenses (with the new lenses being much nicer). All in all, nothing really spectacular. Competent. Uninspiring.

The problem for Phase One is that the AFD II and III, and most of their associated lenses, are NOT in the same league as their backs. Not even close. And by associating with these merely OK bodies and mostly OK lenses, they diminish shooter's experience with their backs.

There was some talk by Phase One, when the AFD III was released, that this was just a stopgap until they can come out with an entirely new design. Obviously that could just be marketing BS, but it would certainly be nice if true. Now if only Phase One understood the concept of a published roadmap :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well what I have seen from the 80mm and from the new 150mm lens I would say they are not OK lenses, I think they are really good. I don't know many lenses that can compete with them. Now if they keep track as they promise and redesign all current lenses i think we will have a lot of fun.
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