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Author Topic: Phase One 45mm f/3.5 TS  (Read 23998 times)
Mort54
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« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2008, 11:34:45 AM »
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Well what I have seen from the 80mm and from the new 150mm lens I would say they are not OK lenses, I think they are really good.
I specifically said the new lenses were much nicer.
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free1000
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« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2008, 01:07:49 PM »
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Nothing beats the technical or mechanical design of the Hartblei!!! No canon, nikon or other has te same movements. It are the only lenses that have full 360 degrees tilt and schift rotation independent from eachother. No other lens can do that Canon is always fixed at 90 degrees for example

Absolutely right, the mechanical design is spot on. Its only the glass that lets it down.

Every design has its compromises though and the Hartblei certainly has. Given the choice though I would choose the Hartblei mechanical movements over my three Canon TS lenses.

(BTW : The 'look' is certainly Sputnik. But then the Russian space program beat the US into space didn't it!  Nasa spent millions developing a ball point pen that could write in zero gravity... the Russians gave their cosmonauts pencils. I appreciate such a simple design principle).
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2008, 01:53:05 PM »
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I was lucky to test a lot of hartblei lenses and kept the ones that were best. I had two perfect 35mm SR lenses but one got dammaged when hitting the concrete floor) and two perfect 85mm for nikon /canon mount. I also have a extremely good 45 mm but had several bad ones before i found the wright one.
This photo is with a 45mm on a mamamiya.
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LightMiner
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« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2008, 07:31:24 PM »
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Okay, a couple of things.  First, there is a really good chance this will be Zeiss glass.  Which will make most of the comments on this board irrelevant!  Of course if it is just a rebadged Hartblei then they would be deserving...


However, in trying to figure that out, and in following a link from above where Hartblei talks about using Zeiss glass in their lense bodies, it lists a 40, not a 45.

http://www.hartblei.eu/en/sr40if.htm

I would much prefer a 40 over 45!  Although 45 is okay.  50 is too narrow for much of what I do.  I might end up with that one straight from Hartblei if it gets good reviews.  So, like people say, we'll see!

In general though, I think people are forgetting one thing in talking about cost and these MF systems.  Film!  The price of a whole PO or AFDIII is quite cheap with several lenses when used with a film back.  As I do landscape and my # of shots per year is very low (I do sell images but have a non-photo day job as well), I am a very very happy Mamiya user and my cost per image is great!  The quality and size of enlargements I can do is incredible for the prices I've paid for the equipment.

Oh - and even the older MF glass, not the really old stuff, but the lenses that are pre-2008 are considered extremely competitive with Zeiss and Hassy from everything I've read from people how have actually used both.  There is an article on this site where they test several MFDBs and the Mamiya glass was used right with the Hassy/Zeiss and the zoom lens was considered the equal of the Hassy zoom equivalent.  Find that article for more info...  Anyway, not trying to start a lense-war here, but just to say there are *many* who think that Mamiya glass is just a hair or two short of the Zeiss/Hassy equivalents (versus being 10 feet under them).
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LightMiner
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« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2008, 12:45:47 AM »
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Yeah -figred that it was for small format a half hour after posting.  It starts by saying it was designed for 6X6, but then when you read the details about what cameras it is for, it is clearly for small format.  That also means that the 40 isn't wide at all!!!  


Note it says about the 40:

Even with wide open aperture, the optical resolution
is exceptionally high. Detail structures up
to 200 line pairs/Millimeter would be possible if
suitable chips would exist. The perfect lens for the
demanding studio and architecture Photographer.


Is it possible that Phase One would re-badge/sell a 700 lense for 3 or 4k when the same company is selling something like the 40?  I've seen companies do really really dumb things, but this would be near the top of the list (assuming that further testing reveals that the glass itself doesn't fit the standards set by the rest of the Mamiya line-up or forthcoming Phase One lenses).  We have that one line to work with 'improved glass' or whatever...  I suppose it would have said Zeiss if it were Zeiss as that is a selling point, rather than 'improved' or whatever word was used.  The existence of the 40 implies that they can work with Zeiss and maybe in future the glass will be replaced if it isn't?

Chris Lawery, who started the thread and sells the lenses, could confirm or deny this, no?  This is one of those situations where there is a fact at hand, and speculation is of moderate value at best when the information could be had directly.

Chris - I know the lense got a lot of heat throughout this thread and I'm not asking you to enter the fray - I understand the virtue of staying above such fray - but from a factual perspective could you just reply with a 1-liner letting us know if the 45 has Zeiss glass or Hartblei glass?
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2008, 01:43:50 AM »
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Quote from: LightMiner
Yeah -figred that it was for small format a half hour after posting.  It starts by saying it was designed for 6X6, but then when you read the details about what cameras it is for, it is clearly for small format.  That also means that the 40 isn't wide at all!!!  


Note it says about the 40:

Even with wide open aperture, the optical resolution
is exceptionally high. Detail structures up
to 200 line pairs/Millimeter would be possible if
suitable chips would exist. The perfect lens for the
demanding studio and architecture Photographer.


Is it possible that Phase One would re-badge/sell a 700 lense for 3 or 4k when the same company is selling something like the 40?  I've seen companies do really really dumb things, but this would be near the top of the list (assuming that further testing reveals that the glass itself doesn't fit the standards set by the rest of the Mamiya line-up or forthcoming Phase One lenses).  We have that one line to work with 'improved glass' or whatever...  I suppose it would have said Zeiss if it were Zeiss as that is a selling point, rather than 'improved' or whatever word was used.  The existence of the 40 implies that they can work with Zeiss and maybe in future the glass will be replaced if it isn't?

Chris Lawery, who started the thread and sells the lenses, could confirm or deny this, no?  This is one of those situations where there is a fact at hand, and speculation is of moderate value at best when the information could be had directly.

Chris - I know the lense got a lot of heat throughout this thread and I'm not asking you to enter the fray - I understand the virtue of staying above such fray - but from a factual perspective could you just reply with a 1-liner letting us know if the 45 has Zeiss glass or Hartblei glass?
As said, we have tested all three hartblei lenses with Zeiss glass in  it. The 40, 80 and 120 macro planar. These lenses are made by hartblei ukranie with carl zeiss west germany glass. However only internded for 35mm camera's. The 45mm3,5 for MF cameras uses russian glass but as they are running out of lenses ( producrion stopped years ago) they are looking for a replacement. The new coming 45mm will probably be using new and" better" lenses.
I have the complete lens set-up from russian SR lenses and i am very happy with them. They are never ultra sharp but very" Cartier Bresson" like( never seen a sharp image from him but always very beuatifull unsharp renderings) My favorit's are the 35 and 80mm for my canon gear and a coupple of 45mm for the mamiya/contax camera's.
For those interested, a link to the article:http://www.fotoapparatuur.nl/Artikelen/index.php/test-hartblei-superrotators/513/
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LightMiner
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« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2008, 01:53:51 AM »
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Cool!

Thanks
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Piet Gispen
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« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2008, 04:23:06 AM »
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Does anyone know if PhaseOne has started supplying any copies as yet? I am eagerly awaiting my copy and hoping it will be supplied soon.

Regards,

Piet Gispen
http://www.pietgispen.com


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petermacc
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« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2008, 09:08:45 PM »
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Quote from: Piet Gispen
Does anyone know if PhaseOne has started supplying any copies as yet? I am eagerly awaiting my copy and hoping it will be supplied soon.

Regards,

Piet Gispen
http://www.pietgispen.com
Agreed, I am looking into buying my first medium format and Phase One products seem to be a good deal. I am not sure if I should go Hasselblad over Phase.
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2008, 03:00:58 AM »
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Quote from: petermacc
Agreed, I am looking into buying my first medium format and Phase One products seem to be a good deal. I am not sure if I should go Hasselblad over Phase.
I have both systems and i use the hasselblad H3d31II for all commercial assignment as it it a fast autofocussing, extremely sharp and a very nice extreem high iso camera.
The mamiya is reserved for the " free works". It's also a nice system but nowwhere near the Hassie H3d. And at he moment you buy into hassie for only 12000 euro.
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petermacc
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« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2008, 04:53:29 PM »
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Quote from: ixpressraf
I have both systems and i use the hasselblad H3d31II for all commercial assignment as it it a fast autofocussing, extremely sharp and a very nice extreem high iso camera.
The mamiya is reserved for the " free works". It's also a nice system but nowwhere near the Hassie H3d. And at he moment you buy into hassie for only 12000 euro.

What do you mean by free works? What areas do you feel the Mamiya  or phase one lacks in comparison?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 04:53:46 PM by petermacc » Logged
ixpressraf
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« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2008, 02:56:25 AM »
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Hi, I mean non commisioned works, stuff I make for fun, exhibitions, calendars etc.... I think the Mamiya is a wonderful system... but the H3d is faster, nicer to use, better focussing, it is just a different "class". I also love the possibility tu use 3200 iso on the H3d31II (800 and two stops pushing in flexcolor) wich is extremely useful whn shooting in factories, nuclear plants,.... And because the h3dII uses the body to get rid of the heat, almost no dust gets to the sensor.
But the mamiya on the other hand is relatively cheap...
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2008, 03:10:35 AM »
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Quote from: ixpressraf
Hi, I mean non commisioned works, stuff I make for fun, exhibitions, calendars etc.... I think the Mamiya is a wonderful system... but the H3d is faster, nicer to use, better focussing, it is just a different "class". I also love the possibility tu use 3200 iso on the H3d31II (800 and two stops pushing in flexcolor) wich is extremely useful whn shooting in factories, nuclear plants,.... And because the h3dII uses the body to get rid of the heat, almost no dust gets to the sensor.
But the mamiya on the other hand is relatively cheap...

Raf,
I was wondering about what you meant too - not about the free works but why you'd chose the mamiya for them.  So is there anything you like the mamiya better for than the H3d31 or do you just take the mamiya when you are in higher risk of loss or damage type situations?  btw - I've enjoyed your "free works" images that you've posted to the recent works threads.  
Thanks and Happy New Years!
Eric
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 03:12:33 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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ixpressraf
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« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2008, 05:11:11 AM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
Raf,
I was wondering about what you meant too - not about the free works but why you'd chose the mamiya for them.  So is there anything you like the mamiya better for than the H3d31 or do you just take the mamiya when you are in higher risk of loss or damage type situations?  btw - I've enjoyed your "free works" images that you've posted to the recent works threads.  
Thanks and Happy New Years!
Eric

Hi Eric. Indeed, i like to use the mamiya stuff when there is a higher risk of loss or damage. I also like the abillity to use the super rotators on them. At the moment i am building a tiltlens for my hasselblad H3d but that will be a 135mm and i love the compact wide angle 45mm rotator. It's like a pentax dslr and a canon: they both do a terrific job but the canon....  
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2008, 09:37:56 AM »
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Quote from: ixpressraf
Hi, I mean non commisioned works, stuff I make for fun, exhibitions, calendars etc.... I think the Mamiya is a wonderful system... but the H3d is faster, nicer to use, better focussing, it is just a different "class". I also love the possibility tu use 3200 iso on the H3d31II (800 and two stops pushing in flexcolor) wich is extremely useful whn shooting in factories, nuclear plants,.... And because the h3dII uses the body to get rid of the heat, almost no dust gets to the sensor.
But the mamiya on the other hand is relatively cheap...


Images shot with a P30+/Phase One Camera (or any camera) will also at least equal images shot with an H3DII-31 shot at ISO 800 and pushed 2 stops. In my opinion, those two products have been and continue to be the leaders when it comes to medium format digital high ISO.

You're referring to the fanless H3DII that utilizes alternative methods for cooling (heat sink) and therefore has minimized venting on the digital back (as opposed to the original H3D and all prior Hasselblad/Imacon DB's which employed an internal fan for cooling). Phase One has been manufacturing fanless digital backs for years, so this is not new. That being said, as someone who sold Hasselblad/Imacon, Leaf, Sinar, instances where dust encountered the sensor were extremely rare, and more likely due to removing the back or access to the camera body via the rear curtain rather than through a vent on the DB. Those vents are genererally very well filtered.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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smhoer
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« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2008, 10:00:13 AM »
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I recently went with Phase One after quite a bit of review.  I went the Phase direction due to the ability to do longer exposures for my landscape work.  I went with Mamiya due to lower cost of used gear.  I sold much of my Canon gear and bought an AFDII and used P45 with Value Added warranty in H mount.  I can't comment on the quality of the P45 yet as I have been waiting 5 weeks so far for a mount swap from the H back.  Phase can't seem to find a back for me so I am currently "dead in the water."  I was told it would only be a couple weeks so whatever choice you make take the warranty and service marketing promisses with a grain of salt.  I may have to sell it and go for a refurb Leaf 75s.

Steve, I have seen from some posts that the 45mm T/S is shipping in Europe.  Any idea when it will be available in the US?  I am hoping it will be a marked improvement over the Hartblei.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 10:23:58 AM by smhoer » Logged

Scott H.
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« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2008, 10:22:45 AM »
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Quote from: smhoer
Steve, I have seen from some posts that the 45mm T/S is shipping in Europe.  Any idea when it will be available in the US?  I am hoping it will be a marked improvement over the Hartblei.

I expect we will see it shortly (I'm sorry - I know that is a vague term). Some of what has been occurring is yes, improving these lenses in terms of coating, optical positioning, housing. I believe that it is difficult to look at a lens that has had a very average reputation that sold for $700 and now see - perceptively - the same lens selling for $3,999. But there is a process and a cost of improvement, there is testing and quality control that has had to have been set up internally at Phase One for these lenses (and that just recently) and there is also the very high cost of waste and rejection. Not to mention the cost of arrangement - whatever it was - between Hartblei and Phase One. Without our involvement I don't know that these lenses would continue to be available and there was certainly a cost in that.

A year ago, perhaps you could order one of these and someone would pull one off the shelf and you received a lens that had been manufactured and...it worked. The quality may have been unpredictable and random, but since it worked, it qualified as a lens that could ship. The picture is quite different now, with the physical enhancements, but most importantly, shipping lenses that are closely scrutinized as meeting a spec and doing that consistently. This is a good thing, and I think it will mean that this lens will be a useful lens - even at its price - for purchasers. But it also means that there is a lot of waste and rejection employed in the process of getting a quantity of good yields, similar to sensor chip manufacturers. And unfortunately, that has a cost to it.

For those familiar with these lenses, my expectation is that the lenses we produce will be better than the best sample of a previous generation that was ever produced. It will not equal a Schneider or Rodenstock on a camera like an Alpa or Cambo Wide. But how many of your medium format lenses do that now? So my recommendation would be to get a demo from your Phase One dealer of a non-prototype 45mm T/S.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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smhoer
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« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2008, 10:27:04 AM »
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Steve, I was led to believe from earlier posts that no new run of glass has been done.  That the new lens used glass already produced but warehoused.  Can you comment on this?

Also, can you find out why it is taking so long for my mount swap?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 11:15:48 AM by smhoer » Logged

Scott H.
North Carolina
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