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Author Topic: Phase/Mamiya is it ever reliable ?  (Read 10798 times)
bradleygibson
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2008, 09:10:07 PM »
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Sorry to hear you're having more issues, Edmund.

I had no such issues either, with my P45+, on Hassy V or Hassy H.

If you can reproduce the problem, and if I were in your shoes, I would push for (another) repair or replacement.  You shouldn't have to worry about how quickly you're shooting when you are taking photographs--either the back should take the shot or it shouldn't, IMHO.

-Brad
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Henry Goh
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2008, 09:21:08 PM »
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eronald,

You may want to try shooting tethered.  Shoot as fast as you can and for say 100 frames.  I think you won't get that purple streak.
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 10:07:17 PM »
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Seems to me it could be a CF card issue. I got weird colors like that every once in a while when I was testing a Phase back. The culprit was a particular brand of CF cards. I never had a problem with my speedy Lexar cards.

John
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 10:10:07 PM »
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eronald,

You may want to try shooting tethered.  Shoot as fast as you can and for say 100 frames.  I think you won't get that purple streak.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No the magenta streak will still be there. I get it regularly with a p30+ H1 shooting tethered and very quickly. Actually I usually get a few every shoot.  Though yesterday seemed to be an exception to that.
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 10:59:34 PM »
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I've had a file like that once but green instead of red and it turned out to be a loose firewire cable. Only did it a few times but never after I discovered the problem.    My Phase P20 is really solid.   I'll bet its something like  your card not being in all the way or something that is exasperated by your gripping the camera harder when excited.    I've had similar problems with 1Ds and when you talk about cameras don't forget all the problems people had with the 1DsII's and loosing files.   Bottom line, you have to test out your stuff, try different combinations of things from cards to lenses, to really know your gear.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 11:01:09 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2008, 12:58:24 AM »
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That there is a shutter synchro error. Your lens is not communicating effectively with the back during that capture which is a result of shooting too fast, as you guys have pointed out throughout this thread. I see it most with the RZ, rarely with the H1. You'll have to slow down a tad bit to avoid it or as others have said, just live with it. However the problem can occasionally "stick" and end up screwing up a whole slew of shots. So pay attention to the screen on the back if the error actually even appears on there... or shoot tethered.  

It is not an issue of Heat or bad cf cards as others mentioned. Just plain old camera electronics. Just be happy that you aren't using the RZ, it gets bad. Magenta AND GREEN, overlayed.double exp, type stuff. very artistic!
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James R Russell
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2008, 01:52:04 AM »
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That there is a shutter synchro error. Your lens is not communicating effectively with the back during that capture which is a result of shooting too fast, as you guys have pointed out throughout this thread. I see it most with the RZ, rarely with the H1. You'll have to slow down a tad bit to avoid it or as others have said, just live with it. However the problem can occasionally "stick" and end up screwing up a whole slew of shots. So pay attention to the screen on the back if the error actually even appears on there... or shoot tethered. 

It is not an issue of Heat or bad cf cards as others mentioned. Just plain old camera electronics. Just be happy that you aren't using the RZ, it gets bad. Magenta AND GREEN, overlayed.double exp, type stuff. very artistic!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If I had a camera and back that did this on a routine basis I would return every bit of it, or I would throw it off the roof.  I'm serious.

Nothing would be as bad as have a pink and green frame of that one amazing moment and I'm sure that would the exact frame it would happen to.

I have to say out of a lot of frames with the p30 and the Contax I've had about a dozen half black frames, about 4 with a green line in them, but nothing routine, and that's out of a lot of frames.

On the P21, regardless of how fast I shoot I've never seen a bad frame.

Then again, Edmund have you cleaned and polished every contact from the lenses to the back and then gone into the dealer with the exact equipment and mixed and matched until you can isolate if it's your lens, your back, your body or jus the way the system is designed.

If it's a design flaw then the answer is to move on to other equipment, if it's just a mechanical issue the answer is to fix it.

Though I'm sure you know that.

JR
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Dustbak
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2008, 02:03:59 AM »
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 I was testing the lens and this happens to be the only image where the people in the frame had the expressions I wanted - argh. On the other hand it renders nicely to BW.

Simplify:
Yes, it seems to happen always when I'm in a hurry to catch an expression.

Edmund
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Just put the faces on one of the other exposures that is correct. Bummer these things.

 I have had them happen with my CF & Aptus but only with cameras that were totally manual, sync cords, older shutters, etc.. In most cases these are sync problems between back & shutter.

Symptoms with me were: My aptus delivered green halves of images & casts, the CF delivers magenta halves, fuzzy images & magenta streaks.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 02:09:32 AM by Dustbak » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2008, 04:36:03 AM »
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Just put the faces on one of the other exposures that is correct. Bummer these things.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed. In the case of this shot it converts well to B&W so I can save it. Phew. Best street shot of the afternoon.

I think that based on what people have said on this thread, this intermittent stripe problem isn't limited to me, I'm just better at complaining first while others work around the issues silently.

I'm shooting Phase/Sandisk Extreme IV. People have seen this with H, has anyone seen the same issues with Contax ?

I'm going to spend some time cleaning and testing as James suggested.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 04:39:16 AM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2008, 04:54:51 AM »
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That there is a shutter synchro error. Your lens is not communicating effectively with the back during that capture which is a result of shooting too fast, as you guys have pointed out throughout this thread. I see it most with the RZ, rarely with the H1. You'll have to slow down a tad bit to avoid it or as others have said, just live with it. However the problem can occasionally "stick" and end up screwing up a whole slew of shots. So pay attention to the screen on the back if the error actually even appears on there... or shoot tethered. 

It is not an issue of Heat or bad cf cards as others mentioned. Just plain old camera electronics. Just be happy that you aren't using the RZ, it gets bad. Magenta AND GREEN, overlayed.double exp, type stuff. very artistic!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I get the magenta and green split right down the centre from time to time
was told it was a CF card problem but then got it in tethered mode also
looks like it's a common electronic problem.
what a pain.
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digitalcameraman
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« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2008, 07:04:48 AM »
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Here is an image from my P45+. This problem occurs every once and then ruining a shot here and a shot there, maybe 3 per4GB  card full.

My question: Is there any MF solution which is as reliable as Canon ? That just makes a picture when one presses the shutter ? Without dark streaks, color bands, centerfolds or other artefacts ?



Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I too have seen this happen and I do believe P1 will tell you it appears that the camera is being shot to quickly and the buffer is being over run.

You should not ever see that with AF cameras and AF coupled lenses because it was explained to me by P1 Tech that the camera will not allow you to shot too quickly on a AF style camera body because it will not release the shutter. I demo and install these cameras everyday and I do not see this with AF cameras.

My experience has been when I had several P backs at a fashion shooter studio several years ago and he started seeing these. He was shooting V  system 500 CM and ELM We really couldnot explain the issue or solve it.  Later I was told that if we had a 555 ELD I would not see this. A week later I asked if we could bring a system back and show him we had solved the problems. We took a 555 and let him shoot and he could never out run the buffer because the camera would not release until the P1 back was ready. This is why sometimes you shoot and the camera will not release until the buffer frees up space.

We had the same problem at a demo with Nasa. They wanted to shoot as fast as the spec, so they set the camera to shoot as fast as the Hasselblad would allow. As it got to the 12 image, it over runs the buffer and you start to see corrupted images like these. They also had old ELM and EL cameras that fired remotely.

And we never see this with P21 or P21 Plus. We see photographers skip flashes all the time because they shoot faster than the pack is recycling.

Plus backs should not do this as often as non Plus backs because the buffer is twice as large.

I think you may want to try to isolate this with AF lens and then try the Hasselblad 110mm with adapter. This would also explain why the meta data is not there because this is a manual lens. I would bet that the problem could be only when using the manual lens on this AF camera.

I am going to try this later this morning with 2 Phase One 645 with P45+ and manual Hasselblad lens attached using Mamiya AF/Hasselblad lens adapter.

Also FYI, when I was at Phase One headquarters several years ago when the P45 was first being built, one of the engineers at P1 stated that all P1 P backs had been developed around the Sandisk technology. That is why P1 ships with Sandisk and the reason I always use and recommend these. I have seen many cards work fine too and I have never been able to determine that a bad card caused this.

But for anyone that experiences this with manual Hasselblad V system, 555 ELD or shooting slower after you have heard the ready confirmation beep will solve this issue.

Good luck Edmound, I know you will solve this as you are the most scientific member of this board. I will report my findings later today.



Chris Snipes
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Chris Snipes
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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2008, 07:39:44 AM »
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My Aptus does a similar thing every once in a while. At least one shot in a session is completely green. It's just a thing I've decided to live with - like the cat who drags in a dead mouse once a month or my girlfriend who is completely nuts on rare occasions. It's life.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Same here. My A65 on an RZ.
As you say, it happens once every now and again, teathered. No issues on CF's so far.
I just accept that any kind of digital/computer hardware will always have the odd furball, as it were.
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2008, 08:03:13 AM »
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Here is an image from my P45+. This problem occurs every once and then ruining a shot here and a shot there, maybe 3 per4GB  card full.

My question: Is there any MF solution which is as reliable as Canon ? That just makes a picture when one presses the shutter ? Without dark streaks, color bands, centerfolds or other artefacts ?



Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund,

I have Doug Peterson, our tech, taking a look at your issue.  He will be talking with Phase One to see what we can do to help you solve your problem.  We will post our findings ASAP.

Chris Lawery
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eronald
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2008, 08:39:23 AM »
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Chris,

 Thank you - somehow the news out of Atlanta always seems good

Edmund

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Edmund,

I have Doug Peterson, our tech, taking a look at your issue.  He will be talking with Phase One to see what we can do to help you solve your problem.  We will post our findings ASAP.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National  Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell 
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2008, 08:46:59 AM »
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Chris,

 Thank you - somehow the news out of Atlanta always seems good

Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, don't thank anyone until you get an answer which solves your problem. I'll get back to you soon.

By the way, I'm out of the Miami Beach office. The news is often good out of here as well, but the news I'm thinking of concerns the bright sun and beautiful women.

Stay tuned...

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 08:47:29 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2008, 10:14:36 AM »
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Edmund,

This is the result of a sticking/lagging shutter* and indicates a body which would need servicing if the current failure rate is unacceptable or if the rate increases. With film this would result in a slight over exposure. With a digital back the sticking/lagging shutter allows light to hit the sensor during the data-read-out, which for any Kodak-chip** MFDB will create a strong rectangular color cast in the area exposed (which will be the side of the sensor last covered by the moving shutter) and is also possible with camera systems which use a leaf shutter (in particular with XX year old Hasselblad V lenses which have never been serviced). This is not to be confused (as it appears it might have been in previous answers) with any number of similar (and equally rare) image errors involving green/magenta lines/bands.

This is one reason I think the evolution of the AFD II to the Phase One 645 was more important than most people give it credit for. A lot of the changes were not glitzy, but were to boost consistency and reliability. The P1 645 comes with a three year 300,000 shot warranty (when purchased with a Value Added kit), so they buffed up the shutter and improved the internal electronics. This warranty is a big piece of mind.

I can tell you from hundreds of tech support cases that intermittent problems are usually not caused by the digital back and are usually mechanical/physical in nature. Problems with the digital back, which are very rare (see how rugged they are), generally cause symptoms that are persistent/consistent problems. This is a very general statement and of course there are plenty of exceptions to the rule but they hold true for most of my support cases.

Finally I would note in defense of Phase One as well as the other brands that forums are a very difficult place to determine consistency/reliability. Responses will be biased towards those with negative experiences and towards the brands/models which are more often used, and tainted by those using the system incorrectly. I have no problem discussing the problems that can arise in a public forum because if you take a fair and wide sample you will find that Phase is a very solid platform.

Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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*For other readers: the Hasselblad-V-lens-to-Mamiya/Phase-Body adapter disables the function of the shutter in the lens in favor of using the body shutter.
**I have no knowledge either way if this is true of Dalsa chips, but I suppose I will when the P65+ comes out!
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2008, 11:15:09 AM »
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Finally I would note in defense of Phase One as well as the other brands that forums are a very difficult place to determine consistency/reliability. Responses will be biased towards those with negative experiences and towards the brands/models which are more often used, and tainted by those using the system incorrectly. I have no problem discussing the problems that can arise in a public forum because if you take a fair and wide sample you will find that Phase is a very solid platform.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Doug, to some extent your correct.  Most come onto a forum with an issue looking for a resolve.

Then again you come at this from a much different viewpoint.

As photographers we make our money, showing, promoting and shooting our photographs, as a dealer your make your money selling equipment.

When something goes wrong with my camera, I just want it to work.  I don't really want to be that involved, because I'm not paid to be that involved.  In fact I paid money NOT to be involved.

In my case the p30 was solid, the p30+ a less solid with the half black frames.  I did due dilligence and sent the images, raw and processed, screen shots etc. etc. to the dealer (your company) who sent them on to Phase, but after the phone calls, the uploads, the e-mails, it still came down to the fact that there really wasn't an answer.

Now luckily in my case it didn't happen that often so I just blew it off and went on with my life, mainly because finding issues with a camera and identifying them isn't my job.

JR
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Dustbak
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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2008, 11:21:37 AM »
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Edmund,

This is the result of a sticking/lagging shutter* and indicates a body which would need servicing if the current failure rate is unacceptable or if the rate increases. With film this would result in a slight over exposure. With a digital back the sticking/lagging shutter allows light to hit the sensor during the data-read-out, which for any Kodak-chip** MFDB will create a strong rectangular color cast in the area exposed (which will be the side of the sensor last covered by the moving shutter) and is also possible with camera systems which use a leaf shutter (in particular with XX year old Hasselblad V lenses which have never been serviced). This is not to be confused (as it appears it might have been in previous answers) with any number of similar (and equally rare) image errors involving green/magenta lines/bands.

Isn't this the same thing as a sync problem between shutter & back as some of us indicated? (though described slightly different).

I agree that backs are extremely rugged. Of all problems I have had over the years (which were numerous because of all different contraptions I have tried) none of those were due to the backs I used. I all cases it turned out to be the 'other hardware' or photographers stupidity.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 11:30:49 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2008, 11:46:58 AM »
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Isn't this the same thing as a sync problem between shutter & back as some of us indicated? (though described slightly different).

I agree that backs are extremely rugged. Of all problems I have had over the years (which were numerous because of all different contraptions I have tried) none of those were due to the backs I used. I all cases it turned out to be the 'other hardware' or photographers stupidity.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dustbak: I owe you an apology. In reading your explanation of the problem I think your phrasing just threw me off a bit. When I think of "sync" I think of the initial trigger pulse. In this case the initial trigger pulse is spot on, but the shutter that remains open longer than requested by the body. Absolutely this could be described as the shutter/body/back being out of "sync."

Doug

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2008, 11:58:50 AM »
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Doug,

Thank you for this extensive reply. I will try and see whether it is possible to get my camera body serviced here in Paris. I have a VA warranty on the back, but clearly this does not cover the body.

IMHO the good point about the Phase name on the new body is that Phase is forced to guarantee that body service is available.

Edmund


Quote
Edmund,

This is the result of a sticking/lagging shutter* and indicates a body which would need servicing if the current failure rate is unacceptable or if the rate increases. With film this would result in a slight over exposure. With a digital back the sticking/lagging shutter allows light to hit the sensor during the data-read-out, which for any Kodak-chip** MFDB will create a strong rectangular color cast in the area exposed (which will be the side of the sensor last covered by the moving shutter) and is also possible with camera systems which use a leaf shutter (in particular with XX year old Hasselblad V lenses which have never been serviced). This is not to be confused (as it appears it might have been in previous answers) with any number of similar (and equally rare) image errors involving green/magenta lines/bands.

This is one reason I think the evolution of the AFD II to the Phase One 645 was more important than most people give it credit for. A lot of the changes were not glitzy, but were to boost consistency and reliability. The P1 645 comes with a three year 300,000 shot warranty (when purchased with a Value Added kit), so they buffed up the shutter and improved the internal electronics. This warranty is a big piece of mind.

I can tell you from hundreds of tech support cases that intermittent problems are usually not caused by the digital back and are usually mechanical/physical in nature. Problems with the digital back, which are very rare (see how rugged they are), generally cause symptoms that are persistent/consistent problems. This is a very general statement and of course there are plenty of exceptions to the rule but they hold true for most of my support cases.

Finally I would note in defense of Phase One as well as the other brands that forums are a very difficult place to determine consistency/reliability. Responses will be biased towards those with negative experiences and towards the brands/models which are more often used, and tainted by those using the system incorrectly. I have no problem discussing the problems that can arise in a public forum because if you take a fair and wide sample you will find that Phase is a very solid platform.

Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

*For other readers: the Hasselblad-V-lens-to-Mamiya/Phase-Body adapter disables the function of the shutter in the lens in favor of using the body shutter.
**I have no knowledge either way if this is true of Dalsa chips, but I suppose I will when the P65+ comes out!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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