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Author Topic: 56 MP Leaf AFi10  (Read 65972 times)
bryanyc
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2008, 11:11:48 PM »
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Click. Flip. Click. Starfish !

Edmund
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Starfish have 5 legs.  Perhaps you are thinking of a Swiss Cross?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 11:13:24 PM by bryanyc » Logged
James R Russell
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2008, 11:37:14 PM »
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Mr K,

I dare you -- go buy an XPan, and just see if your philosophy holds true. There's no way in hell that you CAN'T not shoot a landscape with it. Everywhere you go, you look for camels on the horizon, gurgling brooks, long wide mountainscapes -- even in the heart of Manhattan.

You look thru that long pano viewfinder, and it just says to you, "I just dare you to try to shoot a vertical".

So, I respectfully disagree. You always react and compose relative to the shape of your frame.
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Imagine what the film world would have been like if it was invented today.  

In medium format you'd have 6 highley detailed films in 6 sizes with a lot of lattitude though a  very grainy polaroid.

The films would all be limited to 200 to 400 asa, unless your pushed them.

You'd have one Kodak film that only fit in Hasselblad cameras at less than full frame size.  You'd have one Dalsa film that worked in Mamiya cameras that was full frame, a different dalsa film size that only worked in Rollei cameras,  older Kodak films that worked in almost any camera but less than full frame, older Dalsa films that worked in most cameras but was less than full frame and you would have to know which lab processed which film.  Some films would require you to convert it first at one lab, then take it over to your standard lab, some films would work at any lab and some films would work in any lab but not look very good, unless you took the negatives to another lab and fixed them.

In 35mm you'd have one professional film,  one size that worked in any lab and  made a big smooth polaroid.




JR
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:18:50 AM by James R Russell » Logged

pss
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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2008, 04:24:17 PM »
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besides the very strange choice of format....
am i the only one who just can't believe that this compared to the the P65 offering just is an instant runner up?
no we haven't seen any files but the biggest advantage of the P65 imo is that i won't HAVE to end up with gigantic files....to me the P65 is interesting because it will be a 30mpix back with crazy DR and probably pretty clean high iso in a full frame sensor.....and all that at a format which now should be called "diamond" (4:3)....

about the 2:3 being perfect for shooting mag spreads....i had a double spread a couple of months ago shot with the 10mpix leica m8...shot as a vertical it was cropped to run as a horizontal at 10x24....in a very high quality glossy....so i don't see why i would need the extra 50mpix to do that....

that internal rotation thing is cool but a rotating back is one of the advantages of the Hy6/Afi anyway....so why add weight, mechanism and tons of possible problems (moving parts!, alignment!,....) to a back that will mostly be used on that (Afi, Hy6) system anyway?
plus it is only interesting if it works with automatic findermasking which i am positive wasn't planned into the Afi, so we probably won't see it......

very strange.....

maybe sinar will have a different sensor (also from dalsa) which will be square and will also feature internal rotation....now that would be really cool...
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James R Russell
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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2008, 04:46:44 PM »
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besides the very strange choice of format....
am i the only one who just can't believe that this compared to the the P65 offering just is an instant runner up?
no we haven't seen any files but the biggest advantage of the P65 imo is that i won't HAVE to end up with gigantic files....to me the P65 is interesting because it will be a 30mpix back with crazy DR and probably pretty clean high iso in a full frame sensor.....and all that at a format which now should be called "diamond" (4:3)....

about the 2:3 being perfect for shooting mag spreads....i had a double spread a couple of months ago shot with the 10mpix leica m8...shot as a vertical it was cropped to run as a horizontal at 10x24....in a very high quality glossy....so i don't see why i would need the extra 50mpix to do that....

that internal rotation thing is cool but a rotating back is one of the advantages of the Hy6/Afi anyway....so why add weight, mechanism and tons of possible problems (moving parts!, alignment!,....) to a back that will mostly be used on that (Afi, Hy6) system anyway?
plus it is only interesting if it works with automatic findermasking which i am positive wasn't planned into the Afi, so we probably won't see it......

very strange.....

maybe sinar will have a different sensor (also from dalsa) which will be square and will also feature internal rotation....now that would be really cool...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211857\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, with all these annoucements there is a lot of headline, but not a lot of detailed body copy.  

Maybe once all the product comes out and the features are announced they will be great, though the price does stop me a bit on all the new backs.  

The thing about the Rollei (I'm going to keep calling it a Rollei until somebody starts shipping Rollei's), is it's the only camera (camera not back) that I find really interesting, especailly with all the legacy glass that's available.

The stuff I'd really like to know about the Rollei is does all the old lenses work or do they have to be calibrated to hit focus?

Does Rollei plan of making the camera available for backs other than Sinar and Leaf, or are they precluded from doing so.

(I know this has been debated forever but I've never seen anyone say that this definatley won't happen).

Next in regards to the Leaf, does the screen black out when the rotation is swtiched?

This is a big deal and working under a lot of pressure in a hurried way can make the difference from getting the shot and not.

What happens to the AFI 7, 6 and 5.   Will those backs continue and will they get some form of rotation, either with a revolving plate or an upgrade?

As far as 2:3 I don't get it and would love to hear to real, official reason. Was Dalsa precluded from selling anyone another FF 645 sensor (other than Phase), or is Leaf trying for the Super 35mm market, or is it just as someone suggested the only way to make it 56mm across?

Will there also be any kind of asa boost from the Leaf?



JR
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eronald
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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2008, 05:54:12 PM »
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Starfish have 5 legs.  Perhaps you are thinking of a Swiss Cross?
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right. Well, maybe a Maltese cross as Leaf is near the promised land

Edmund

PS. Bernard - I'm glad to see that you can be reached per forum
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 05:55:01 PM by eronald » Logged
rainer_v
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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2008, 08:10:20 PM »
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i dont care so much the size, although i prefer 3x4 or 4x5,
but as yaya said one allways can stitch and the resulting  resolution will be enormous.

i just hope that this time they dont go on with a thing similar as the centerfold in the a75. this time it will not be enough power to hide it so well as leaf was able to do it in the last 2 years,- to my surprise.
i really hope for them and more for the buyers that the new dalsas will not show the same stitch again, or that leaf will treat it right this time and finally get it sorted out with the right code, esp. because the afi mount will work on the artec from the beginning, so many will choose this back for it.
reg. phase i have not much doubt that they wont run in such trouble with their new dalsa, as their sw department seems to be very tough.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:12:33 PM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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David WM
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« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2008, 08:38:32 PM »
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I do not really see the trouble with a wide chip. If you crop it to 3:4 proportions you'll still have around 45 - 48 MP I guess. Just mask it off and forget that the extra is there if it bothers you. I think it would be smart to have some customised masks available so you don't have to make your own. Making the chip this proportion they satisfy the requirements of more photographers. Leaf are only maker to offer a rotating chip, which seem to me to be such a logical thing to do. Sure beats tipping the camera on its side.
David
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Natasa Stojsic
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« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2008, 08:43:19 PM »
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I like the new AFi10 idea!!!

However, I am not good with math   but how many of you would rathe take let's say P30+/Aptus/Sinar/H3D with existing 30mp on 6x7 sensor instead of the new size 60mp sensors?

In case that Aptus asked Dalsa for let's say a model with existing 28/30mp but 6x7 sensor like their Screen... I think that would be much smarter and more viable/balanced choice on todays market and perhaps
improve on that or/and add the new AFi10 as addition and see what's a better catch.... I bet they would sell more 28/30mp with 6x7 sensor.....

Not sure if this make sense?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:44:51 PM by Natasa Stojsic » Logged

[span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:black']N a t a s a   S t o j s i c[/span][/span][span style='color:gray']  .......................................................................................................................................... [/span]
[span style='color:gray']PHASE[/span][span style='color:skyblue']ONE[/span] [span style='color:gray']P30[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']+[/span][/span]| [span style='color:red']MAMIYA[/span] [span style='color:gray']645 AFD II [/span]  [span style='font-family:impact'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:#98AFC7'] | 28mm f4.5 D. AF | 35mm f3.5 AF | 55-110mm f4.5 AF Zoom | 80mm f2.8 AF | 120mm f4.0 MF Macro | 150mm f3.5 AF[/span][/span][/span]
berg
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« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2008, 09:01:42 PM »
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[The interesting thing of the Hy6 is that it is so precisely produced that no individual calibration of lenses or backs to the body is needed.][/QUOTE]
EPd

Is that why i´ve seen 3 different Afi´s with 3 different callibrations. One was 5 cm off in focus.
Mine was 10 cm off and the the last one was spot on. And is it also why Alpa has made 2 different mounts for the hy6, so that they will fit the lower tollerences in the Hy6 and AFi.


[because the afi mount will work on the artec from the beginning, so many will choose this back for it.]
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Rainer v

Not without shims.


[phase i have not much doubt that they wont run in such trouble with their new dalsa, as their sw department seems to be very tough]
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Rainer v

Well nobody knows. maybe even double centerfold since it will be 4 readout.
All we know for sure is that Leaf had centerfoldissues with some backs and that it only showed when using lenses that neded the LC calibration anyway. So really no issue at all.
Never shoved on mirror reflex only on nonretrowidanglelenses, and in some cases only at extreeme shifts.
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pss
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« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2008, 11:14:56 PM »
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I do not really see the trouble with a wide chip. If you crop it to 3:4 proportions you'll still have around 45 - 48 MP I guess. Just mask it off and forget that the extra is there if it bothers you. I think it would be smart to have some customised masks available so you don't have to make your own. Making the chip this proportion they satisfy the requirements of more photographers. Leaf are only maker to offer a rotating chip, which seem to me to be such a logical thing to do. Sure beats tipping the camera on its side.
David
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all backs rotate on the Hy6 or Afi as do all back s that fit on the RZ....i am not sure i want moving parts in a 40000 back (which means i am less likely to have a back-up handy:)..).....i would rather just rotate the back then have the chip move with the back.....

why do they satisfy more photographers with this format?
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David WM
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« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2008, 12:02:48 AM »
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why do they satisfy more photographers with this format?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you do advertising and want to shoot A4 proportions for magazine, you have effectively approx 45 to 48 Mb chip area. If you want wide you have that also, which is probably more likely doing landscapes. To me it sounds more versatile.  When I got my first DB it was a Leaf DCB2, a square chip. A lot of people seem to love square, but in practice I found it about the least useful size, and took a lot of photos with the camera cranked over at 45 degrees to maximise file size with a long thin subject. If you want to shoot square with the new 56MP chip, you still have a 36MP area to work with. I doubt that you would find the mechanics of the rotation of the chip a problem as from what I have gathered, Leaf makes high quality products and I would be surprised if their mechanical design would be deficient. We've seen multi shot systems where the chip is nudged by precise amounts between exposures, a concept which would worry me a lot more than a  rotation of 90 degrees.  Personally I like the idea of 3:4 proportions, but I am not concerned that there is more chip area outside of that for when its wanted.  What would be really handy is the ability to crop at capture, so if you are shooting square or a small subject, you wouldn't  need to drag the whole file through processing. Anyway, maybe Leaf are planning on having more than 1 chip (shape) available.
David
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2008, 12:13:10 AM »
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PS. Bernard - I'm glad to see that you can be reached per forum
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Edmund,

A regretable mishap for which I have no problem apologizing a second time. Any next trip to Tokyo planned?

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
yaya
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« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2008, 01:48:45 AM »
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If you do advertising and want to shoot A4 proportions for magazine, you have effectively approx 45 to 48 Mb chip area. If you want wide you have that also, which is probably more likely doing landscapes. To me it sounds more versatile.  When I got my first DB it was a Leaf DCB2, a square chip. A lot of people seem to love square, but in practice I found it about the least useful size, and took a lot of photos with the camera cranked over at 45 degrees to maximise file size with a long thin subject. If you want to shoot square with the new 56MP chip, you still have a 36MP area to work with. I doubt that you would find the mechanics of the rotation of the chip a problem as from what I have gathered, Leaf makes high quality products and I would be surprised if their mechanical design would be deficient. We've seen multi shot systems where the chip is nudged by precise amounts between exposures, a concept which would worry me a lot more than a  rotation of 90 degrees.  Personally I like the idea of 3:4 proportions, but I am not concerned that there is more chip area outside of that for when its wanted.  What would be really handy is the ability to crop at capture, so if you are shooting square or a small subject, you wouldn't  need to drag the whole file through processing. Anyway, maybe Leaf are planning on having more than 1 chip (shape) available.
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211944\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks David, here below are a few images that help in visualising the size and the achievable crops from the new sensor:





And here is a table with some popular crops (in horizontal view) and the actual sizes in pixels:



I've tried the rotating mechanism and it is ingeniously simple and there are absolutely no tolerances there. I would say that it is much more robust and solid (an accurate) than an RZ rotating adapter...



We've had rotating sensors since 1998, including one that was also doing "nudging" in the Cantare XY and never had sensor miss-alignment.


BR

Yair
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rainer_v
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« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2008, 03:01:37 AM »
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[
Well nobody knows. maybe even double centerfold since it will be 4 readout.
All we know for sure is that Leaf had centerfoldissues with some backs and that it only showed when using lenses that neded the LC calibration anyway. So really no issue at all.
Never shoved on mirror reflex only on nonretrowidanglelenses, and in some cases only at extreeme shifts.
berg
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its just bs.
 i will not go in deeper, but i simply cant stand this miss information about cf. as i couldnt from the beginning. nothing changed. it was a big problem with shift lenses and it still is,- and i hope  it wont go on with the new dalsa. i personally know many users which gave back there a75 backs, some several times,  some in the last months and what a couple of  their dists where telling me about this is just horrible. but as i said: i dont want to insist once more, dont want to disturb the party.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 04:04:35 AM by rainer_v » Logged

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tho_mas
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« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2008, 03:14:02 AM »
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As the chip is adjustable a shiftable chip would have been a great feature. Would be 10mm in both directions. Not bad for a bulit in solution.
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Robin Balas
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« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2008, 06:34:27 AM »
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...

As far as 2:3 I don't get it and would love to hear to real, official reason. Was Dalsa precluded from selling anyone another FF 645 sensor (other than Phase), or is Leaf trying for the Super 35mm market, or is it just as someone suggested the only way to make it 56mm across?

Will there also be any kind of asa boost from the Leaf?
JR
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First, if this post seems biased against Leaf - its not (I own and use an Aptus MFDB).

One possible explanation is the architecture behind the CCD read outs. CCD's of this kind is not read out pixel by pixel, its column by column. So adding length to the columns are almost trivial if you overlook the wafer costs and yield issues which are not trivial.
Adding columns means a major redesign of the support electronics in the back. So if you are desperate for time answering some competition, adding pixels by increasing the depth of your columns is way easier and faster than starting all over on a new back and chip. So instead of having a 48MP 645-crop back we got a 56MP 645 pano-crop back. Marketing wise I think it was a smart move. For me it was not as I tend to end up with something in-between 4:3 and 1:1. My private projects would benefit from it, but not my wallet.

So what Leaf/DALSA have done here in my opinion is a smart, easy and cost efficient increment in sensor real estate and resolution enabling LEAF to build on their existing tech instead of redesigning everything late in the cycle. A shame it isn't visible in the pricing though. You guys should check out the MFDB pricing in Norway if you want a good laugh. [a href=\"http://www.interfoto.no/aspx/prdinfo.aspx?plid=22961]P65+ basic support package[/url] 247K NOK = 48K USD , the value added package including full support is 53K USD

MHO.
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peegeenyc
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« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2008, 08:38:21 AM »
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I do not really see the trouble with a wide chip. If you crop it to 3:4 proportions you'll still have around 45 - 48 MP I guess. Just mask it off and forget that the extra is there if it bothers you. 
David
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nice try to justify it, but it really doesnt fly.
and some very carefully chosen images by Leaf to promote the back and make it look a better choice.

sorry - but masking/ cropping the back brings back in the lens crop factor we've finally gotten away from with full frame 645 3:4 sensors. Lenses are at last operating as they are meant to be, not some random reduced inner area, to save wafer production costs.  

yes you can stitch with this cigar shape sensor, and 3 vertical stitches of this back on an Alpa/Horseman/Cambo typically with 18mm horizontal movement each way, will yield 56x72, but that's zero overlap - a realistic 2mm overlap would be 56x68. However just two vertical stitches in the P65+ Phase will yield 54x76, with plenty of overlap, and be less shots, quicker + less work.

I'd prefer to stitch with the Phase, but you may do 4+ shots stitching and the permutations are endless there, so ymmv. (In fact I'd far prefer not to stitch and have a 3:4 image directly)

Leaf have thrown a weird pitch here, and nobody knows what to make of it. I appreciate some have brand loyalty, but its taking a lot of head scratching to find a broadly justifiable reason why the majority of digital pros who are only recently settled around the 3:4 format would want to change to something distinctly less useful.
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« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2008, 08:51:45 AM »
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its just bs.
 i will not go in deeper, but i simply cant stand this miss information about cf. as i couldnt from the beginning. nothing changed. it was a big problem with shift lenses and it still is,- and i hope  it wont go on with the new dalsa. i personally know many users which gave back there a75 backs, some several times,  some in the last months and what a couple of  their dists where telling me about this is just horrible. but as i said: i dont want to insist once more, dont want to disturb the party.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Don´t get to hyped up about it. You can´t run away from facts. And what i cant stand is people insinuating that problems solved will reappear as if nothing had chanced, and the blindfolded belief in a company.
I would like facts and not what someone thinks.
I have owned and used Aptus 22, Aptus 75, Aptus 75s, AFi 7. I now own and use AFi 7 and Aptus 75. The Aptus 75 showing some centerfold but nothing to worry about in post. I actually like it so much that i bought it 3 weeks ago as a refurb. It will defenately be a keeper as i have not seen a bettter file from either sinar or phase.
What i am more worried about is the AFi. As i staded earlier on in another post. The build quality is somewhat lacking and i really thougt that the manual schneider linses were better than they are. Those lenses cant resolve moere than 22 MP, and are canon like to look at compared to Hasselblad H lenses wich i used for 2 years. I know that the new AFD lenses are better, they
just dont have the same guality about them. I find myself shotting alpa more and more, even whith jobs that might be more comfortable with a mirrorreflex.
And by the way i allso know tons of people who shoots Leaf and Sinar and Phase and Hasselblad,
hell i even have a friend whoes soon plays football with hasselblads CEO´s son. But that doesnt make me an expert.
best
berg
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woof75
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« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2008, 08:57:47 AM »
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I have no idea whats wrong with a lens crop, just buy a wider lens, unless of course you want super wide. There's nothing written in stone that a 55mm say has to produce a certain angle of view on 645 format. Also your cropping out the crappy part of the lens anyway, I have a 1.3 crop factor back and it's more than fine with me.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2008, 09:05:56 AM »
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At this point in time, I doubt there will ever be a square chip, but I'd like to make a case why square was so useful during film days. If you were a commercial photographer, shooting for clients, (clients that many times change their minds), and say you were shooting for an ad that was roughly vertical 8.5x11. Say that ad was to run in multiple publications. Say that that ad would change sizes slightly, depending on the size and format of each publication, thus forcing this ad to be "repurposed" as they say, for each publication.

So you have this one image that you shot, that will now be used in five different sized ads. And as we all know, most photographers like to fill the frame, and compose appropriately.

If you'd shot the job on a square Hassie, the AD would simply recrop the image for each magazine, and there would be TONS of extra room on the sides, to go get more image. There'd never be that dreaded phone call at 4:59pm, (before you left on another job the next day), saying, "Uh, is there any more image on the side of this frame? Uh, could you clone some?" Or, in those days, the phone call would be more like, "Uh, we had to order an expensive dye transfer print, and then hire a retoucher to build in bleed, because you shot the image so tight". And then he'd hang up, pissed.

So, with FF 645, things are relatively OK, but with this Leaf crop, (or Canon/Nikon crop), I'm all the time feeling this "squeeze" when you're shooting vertical. You fill the vertical part appropriately, but then there's not enough extra frame on the side, so then, you scoot back, and then there's this voice in your head saying, "Jesus, there's way too much dead space above the guy's head".

In short, 2x3 proportion = Bad News for a commercial photographer.

Again, who are these companies consulting with in advance? Only weekend-warrior landscape photographers?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 09:07:39 AM by gwhitf » Logged
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