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Author Topic: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?  (Read 11922 times)
bradleygibson
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2008, 01:52:01 PM »
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I see no noise at base ISO with the Sinar back. Happy to post a sample.
True, you don't get this on the back. I don't miss it personally. It is multi channel in Exposure.
Matter of taste. I think they could both be improved, to be honest.
If you shoot tethered, or import images from a CF card, the images are stored immediately as DNG files. There is no intermediate step.
Not sure I see the point in this feature
Again, not sure I see the benefit. You can pick your own white balance for all images with one click or one manual setting in Exposure.

 

That's a valid point for those who need it.

I still don't see aything that would stop you getting a Hy6

I have posted many images in the 'recent work' thread. Please show me an example of the yellow cast you mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As I read this, I think you're helping to prove my point.  In your situation, many of these points are non-issues.  For others, some of these may be issues.

My point is simply that no back will meet everyone's needs perfectly--some will suit each of us better than others.  I think we can all agree on that.

That being said, I do have a Hy6, and all in all, am enjoying it very much!

Best regards,
-Brad
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 01:56:01 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

EricWHiss
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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2008, 03:20:24 PM »
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Hi Brad,
Color cast might not be the correct term - but yes I was including your sample images in the formulation of my thoughts.  I dunno what it is exactly but the colors are different from the p20. Is this a Kodak vs Dalsa / bayer RGB filters thing or  differences in color sensitivity of each sensor?  
Do we know anything about color accuracy of each type of sensor?   Maybe it can all come out in the wash with proper profiles and adjustments?
 
But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 03:22:18 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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klane
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2008, 04:38:54 PM »
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Hi Brad,
Color cast might not be the correct term - but yes I was including your sample images in the formulation of my thoughts.  I dunno what it is exactly but the colors are different from the p20. Is this a Kodak vs Dalsa / bayer RGB filters thing or  differences in color sensitivity of each sensor? 
Do we know anything about color accuracy of each type of sensor?   Maybe it can all come out in the wash with proper profiles and adjustments?
 
But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I totally agree, it seems that these sensors are "cooking"  or tweaking the colors somewhere in the mix, actually its probably the software...but I really could go for some standardization some sort.

I think that's one thing the industry needs is universal color management tool for ALL files, its probably near impossible and the fab 4 have entered into the megapixel race (well maybe not sinar) and they dont seem to concerned about the things that matter...
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rainer_v
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2008, 06:45:19 PM »
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Hi Brad,

But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

this has nothing to do with the back, but with the software and what embedded color temperature is transferred to adobe or other dng compatible software.
sinar has to work on this urgently i.m.o.

its just and only a question of "interpretation" of the embedded color curve.
you can similate it by giving a "wrong" color temperature to the color calibrations you make in brumbaer tools, before saving it. if you save the same calibration with different color temperatures each time its interpretated at another point from adobe, although the file reamins all the time exactly the same. the default zero ( grey )  point of adobe raw moves, and so the slider have to be set to absurde points.
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rainer viertlböck
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James R Russell
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2008, 07:55:43 PM »
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I have posted many images in the 'recent work' thread. Please show me an example of the yellow cast you mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It may be an artistic choice and I don't follow every image posted, but your examples to me look like pink skin.

Once again if that was your artistic goal then your there, but I saw the same pink in the Dalsa sensored camera I owned as its zero daylight balance was yellow green and sometimes it was a one click fix and sometimes it was a completed repaint in photoshop.

All the backs are good, but the point of spending money on the HY6, especially if you start from scratch and don't come into it with a Leaf or Sinar back is your scrapping many tens of thousands of digital equipment just to use the camera.

If you started with a Sinar and have a lot of legacy glass your fine, If you didn't  your probably rich or dig searching the net for used lens bargains.

Regardless, I have nothing against Sinar, but I wouldn't dive into one.  Their marketing is very poor, the ability to find a sinar back with any camera in rental in the U.S. is almost unheard of and last but not least, the software from every report seems to be less than 100% stable.

You bleed Sinar Blue and that's fine, nothing like Brand loyalty if your into that, but for anyone to compete in the professional market with Phase and Leaf they MUST get their equipment into rental and they MUST have dead on, rock solid software without excuse and extra steps.

Personally I think the backs and camera looks like a Euro medical device in that grey/blue paint scheme, but once again, to each his own.



I don't care what anyone uses and don't make a penny from the proceeds of camera sales and fully recognize that what I need is and can be different than anyone else.

(end of disclaimer).

JR
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 10:05:36 PM by James R Russell » Logged

Natasa Stojsic
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2008, 09:03:24 PM »
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Guys, just think about how many of Hy6 Rollei/Sinar/Leaf would be sold already if Phase announced ....
yes from today you can mount Phase P30+/P45+/P65+ on Hy6....

That announcement alone would drastically change our options and for sure increase the price of the second hand glass etc....

So I think we better buy glass now.... before it happens
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[span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:black']N a t a s a   S t o j s i c[/span][/span][span style='color:gray']  .......................................................................................................................................... [/span]
[span style='color:gray']PHASE[/span][span style='color:skyblue']ONE[/span] [span style='color:gray']P30[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']+[/span][/span]| [span style='color:red']MAMIYA[/span] [span style='color:gray']645 AFD II [/span]  [span style='font-family:impact'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:#98AFC7'] | 28mm f4.5 D. AF | 35mm f3.5 AF | 55-110mm f4.5 AF Zoom | 80mm f2.8 AF | 120mm f4.0 MF Macro | 150mm f3.5 AF[/span][/span][/span]
bradleygibson
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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2008, 09:14:54 PM »
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Hi Brad,
Color cast might not be the correct term - but yes I was including your sample images in the formulation of my thoughts.  I dunno what it is exactly but the colors are different from the p20. Is this a Kodak vs Dalsa / bayer RGB filters thing or  differences in color sensitivity of each sensor? 
Do we know anything about color accuracy of each type of sensor?   Maybe it can all come out in the wash with proper profiles and adjustments?
 
But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't be fooled by the software settings--As Rainier points out, each type of file that is processed is effectively being run through it's own processing pipeline.  Under the hood, you can bet there is different code processing different raw files.

Sometimes companies help each other out for various reasons and that's why some companies' Lightroom conversions are better than others.  I can't (won't) go into any specifics, but the fact that it "takes 80 points of Tint to get the color right" just means that Sinar and Adobe haven't sat down to make the file look better "out of the box" while others may have.

It will be interesting to see if Adobe is able to successfully tame the color beast with their new Adobe Profiles strategy.  Like Leaf skin tones and want that kind of color on your Phase?  It's probably only a matter of time...

James, well put, as usual...

Natasa, I'd love to see that if for no other reason than the improvements resulting from more competition for us as photographers.

-Brad
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 09:25:48 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

flashfredrikson
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2008, 02:32:41 AM »
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Attention Attention Rumor!!!

Just the other day the local Phase One dealer told that Phase One anf the Hy6 people are negotiating a solution (I guess the amount of money phase hast to put on the table) to get phase one backs on the hy6. Ok, the exact same dealer said the exact same thing already half a year ago and in the way of ah, I can't tell you something specific but...

End of rumor...


I think this is too funny, the same blabla over and over. But I would really love to see that happen, because the Hy6 is just a wonderful piece of engeniering (except for it's design, as it is really ugly as hell imho).


cheers,
martin
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ynp
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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2008, 04:19:37 AM »
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A second reason not confirmed or scientific is that the Sinar files people have shared all seem to have a green yellow undertone to them that makes them unappealing to me especially for images with skin (IMHO) -.......   I don't know if there is anything to the color issues sensor wise as I haven't seen this problem with the leaf files so suspect its software? 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am surprised that so many people on a number of forums are reporting the problems with Sinar's color interpretation. I have been using eMotion 22 and 54LV for more than 3 years and I briefly owned the eMotion 75, and IMO it is an urban myth. Two years before it was "Green files", now it is "yellowish tint". It is just a wrong workflow.  I think that correct use of white balance (shooting a grey card in Custom WB in untethered  mode) is something that is omitted, even by dealers. Unfortunately the current line of eMotion backs does not support the auto WB and does not utilise the RGB sensor of the Hy6 camera.
I shoot flat art for catalogues and reproduction and for me the correct color is very important. In my experience the Color Calibration in CaptureShop (with the ColorChecker) works fine and I have very good results after I have made several calibrations for my shooting conditions. The Brumbaer DNG converter has a similar   procedure and one can make as many color matrixes as needed. The Brumbaer color matrixes are interpreted correctly in Iridient Raw Developer. I have problems mostly with LR and I had to save a lot of pre-sets and they are not 100% correct with color. I tend not to use the eXposure 6 for critical color work because IMO it is not a finished product yes (as far as color calibration is concerned).
In my personal experience my eMotion 54LV does not allow correct interpretation of Color under tungsten light (2200-3400K) even after the calibration and I have no such problems with my Sinarback 54H; so I think that is something to do with Dalsa or my ignorance or my incompetence.

I'd like Sinar to introduce AUTO WB as soon as possible; we rent my Sinar-M with the e54LV occasionally and I have to hear a lot of complains after the shoot; even experienced photographers forgot how to use a grey card in field!  We (my daughter)  have to process their files for them free of charge if they complain too much about WB. People who rent want to have "nice" files out of the camera!
Sorry for the long post,
Yevgeny
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 04:21:36 AM by ynp » Logged
rainer_v
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2008, 04:50:50 AM »
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i have exactly the same experiences with all three backs( 54m, e22/54 ,e75 ) than ynp is describing.
except that i like lightroom for the conversion of the brumbaer dng files too.
it depends a lot on the custom color calibration  in the tools. i described it several times here before.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 04:51:28 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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ynp
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2008, 05:00:18 AM »
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i have exactly the same experiences with all three backs( 54m, e22/54 ,e75 ) than ynp is describing.
except that i like lightroom for the conversion of the brumbaer dng files too.
it depends a lot on the custom color calibration  in the tools. i described it several times here before.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211985\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Rainer
Thank you!
A lot of my workflow is based on you advice on the LL Forum!
BTW, my best color from Brumbaer Tools is when I use one 6700K matrix
Kind regards,
Yevgeny
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rainer_v
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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2008, 05:02:30 AM »
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Rainer
Thank you!
A lot of my workflow is based on you advice on the LL Forum!
BTW, my best color from Brumbaer Tools is when I use one 6700K matrix
Kind regards,
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211989\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes i often use as well a matrix at 6500k, shot under cloudy sky or in shadow.
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rainer viertlböck
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woof75
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2008, 08:50:55 AM »
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It's funny this Hy6 business, it's a super high end professional tool that no pro is going to use because of the lack of availability of it in rental houses, I have no idea how they manage to sell them and who are they selling them too? (if anyone) Plus, I don't like the H2 but what does it have that the H2 doesn't have?
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thsinar
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2008, 09:01:21 AM »
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hi Eric,

- I don't know and understand where you have seen or who told you about a greenish/yellowish cast or undertone: I can assure you that this is not the case. As Graham suggests it above, make sure to have a right "white balance".

- 2-step workflow: that's not the case with eXposure and its DNG workflow (as mentioned by Graham as well).

Best regards,
Thierry

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However, I've been put off from Sinar backs because of what appears to be a cumbersome 2 step workflow with the files.  A second reason not confirmed or scientific is that the Sinar files people have shared all seem to have a green yellow undertone to them that makes them unappealing to me especially for images with skin (IMHO) -
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2008, 09:04:26 AM »
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hi Martin,

I guess you have not tried eXposure: please give it a try.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Good morning Graham an all,
what I like about the Sinarbacks is that they fit on any camera, that is really nice, I hate the phase one concept. Together with the rotating adaptor it almost sounds perfect. But I would never buy a back for that alone. What puts me off is the software. I must admitt I never shot one in a real working situation but I used it on a demo of the Hy6 and talked about it with the photog who was hired to present it to the public. The Software was so chunky, hard to use, maybe you could get into it, but why that effort when there is something that works?
martin
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2008, 09:13:53 AM »
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It's funny this Hy6 business, it's a super high end professional tool that no pro is going to use because of the lack of availability of it in rental houses, I have no idea how they manage to sell them and who are they selling them too? (if anyone).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For the record, to the non-USA photographers here -- there is simply a fear of Sinar in the USA. A fear of no support. A fear of long wait times, if something breaks. ("Sorry, we are in the Alps on Holiday, for next four weeks, please call back. Sanks you".)

We never see Sinar digital cameras on the shelves here; we never see Sinar digital cameras in rental houses. It's simply way too much of an expensive RISK to invest in Sinar.

Is this good? No. But it is the way it is. Does anyone at Sinar seems to be altering this perception? Absolutely not.

Thus, it continues.

The ball is in Sinar's court. You want the perception to change -- then change your business.

PS. For the record, I'm sure Sinar digital system is a fine tool, just like I used to own their 4x5 film view cameras. But the dollar signs are much different now, especially if you need a backup system too.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 09:20:03 AM by gwhitf » Logged
flashfredrikson
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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2008, 05:30:14 PM »
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hi Martin,

I guess you have not tried eXposure: please give it a try.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Thierry,
the software that crashed a couple of times on that demo indeed wasn't the new exposure, but the old one. Just yesterday i downloaded exposure to play around a little and I must admit it looks quite good from the gui and everything. unfortunately I don't have any sinar dngs to learn it's functions and none are offered to download at sinar's website either and other dngs don't seem to work. as there are no sinar dealers in munich anymore i can't even rent or just try a hy6 in my city, and munich is a major market in germany... bummer.
and reading here about all those workarounds with a bear involved, needig to shoot a grey card all the time and matrixes scares me off big time. but that isn't the case with exposure anymore, right?


cheers,
martin
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mmurph
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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2008, 06:05:53 PM »
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For the record, to the non-USA photographers here -- there is simply a fear of Sinar in the USA. A fear of no support.

I am not a Sinar user, so I will not disagree.

I can say that I have received the best support I have ever received from any vendor, in any field, from Sinar/Bron Regional Reps and the high-end Bron retailers, such as Dodd Camera in Cleveland and Chicago.

Both represent absoultely the best in personal, professional service that I can imagine.  I can clearly recall chatting with Matt LaPointe (then at Sinar/Bron, now at Dodd) via e-mail while he was on vacation with his daughter in Florida.

The cell phone numbers of the regional reps are on the Sinar/Bron front page. If you are a customer, most of the reps nationwide will come to know you and be available at any time.  

Again, I haven't had the chance to work with Sinar yet. I have friends that have though. I'll let others chime in on that.

Best,
Michael
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ynp
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2008, 06:33:16 PM »
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and reading here about all those workarounds with a bear involved, needig to shoot a grey card all the time and matrixes scares me off big time. but that isn't the case with exposure anymore, right?
cheers,
martin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am so sorry! It looks I have scared you with my talk about critical color and matrixes. I am pretty sure that you can get very good color from CaptureShop and eXposure without messing with color calibrations and matrixes. I was just responding to the claim that  the Sinar files look yellow!
In my experience eMotion backs are capable to give very pleasant skin tones out of box (with the WB set) with eXposure , fast and simple.
I feel bad for having  disturbed the landscape and people shooters with unnecessary technicalities.
Yevgeny
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David K
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« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2008, 10:51:47 PM »
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I'll add my vote to the outstanding support offered by Sinar.  I've been shooting with the Hy6 kit for several months now and had a few learning curve issues that I brought to Thierry's attention.  I had immediate and competent support and, as I've gotten to know some of these guys... Colin King and Dave McRitchie, have found them also to be very nice folks.  I've never had better support from any company I've dealt with.  If it's not right, they'll get it fixed.  As far as the gear goes, couldn't be happier shooting the Rollei glass and, on occasion, switching adapter plates and reminding myself about how much I like the Contax 645 and Zeiss lenses.
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