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Author Topic: Question about the DNG Profile Editor?  (Read 6833 times)
Dan Altick
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« on: July 31, 2008, 07:53:25 AM »
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I'm a little confused on the DNG Profile Editor profiles.  It seems to me the only true profile is the one you create for your camera under both Tungsten and Daylight spectrum lighting using a Color Checker and the Color Chart tab of the Profile Editor.  This essentially replaces Thomas For's script and allows the blending of two different illuminates, but I don't understand the purpose of the Adobe supplied Color Match and Standard Profiles for various cameras.  To me these would not be true profiles.  Could someone please explain this.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 07:55:58 AM by Dan Altick » Logged
michael
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2008, 09:54:10 AM »
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There is really no such think as a "true" profile. In fact the first Adobe matrix profiles were very accurate, but many people disliked them.

Colour is subjective. Camera makers create their own "looks", which users sometimes like and sometimes don't.

Now with the DNG profile editor you can have it any way you want. Use Adobe's older ACR profiles, their new profiles, their matching profiles (if you have a recent Canon or Nikon camera), make your own, or have someone else make or modify one for you.

That's why this is such a revolution.

Michael

Ps: Something which many people may not have discovered yet is that the Ingest dialog box allows you to specify a profile. This means that once you have one that you prefer for a particular camera, it can automatically be applied to all files brought into Lightroom
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 09:56:09 AM by michael » Logged
Panopeeper
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2008, 12:01:06 PM »
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The Adobe ACR forum contains very valuable information regarding the profile editor: http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/?1...GoTvE@.3bb6a858

The thread DNG Profiles and the ACR Calibrator deals specifically with this issue, i.e. generating illumination specific profiles or a generic one.
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Gabor
Dan Altick
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2008, 12:22:37 PM »
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Ok, here's where I'm still confused.  I was under the impression that the purpose of calibrating with Thoma's script was to create an accurate on-screen representation of the color checker chart, basically allowing you to place the physical chart under D50 (or good spectrum) lighting off to the side of your monitor and compare the on-screen chart to the real chart for accurate color representation.  This is basically the same type comparison one would do for a print.  If I then wanted to add any extra vibrance, tonal adjustments, or saturation to my images, I would do that using my Camera Raw presets.
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Dan Altick
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2008, 12:24:01 PM »
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Just saw the new post above.  I will check out that link.  Thanks.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2008, 01:30:58 PM »
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Dan, I'm basically with Michael on this one. My take on the issue is that there is accurate color, and then there is pleasing color. In my discussions with many photographers over a long period of time, I have come to the conclusion that most photographers do not actually want accurate color, despite making that claim. Often it is stated the photographers want the colors in their images to be "as they remembered them" but human memory for color is actually not that accurate (at least not in the physical sense). For instance, we tend to remember grass as being a little greener than it actually was (more yellow-ish in reality). This isn't helped by our long training of seeing captures done with popular films such as Velvia. Sometimes skin tones are really reddish even if we don't want them to look that way in the pictures.

Camera manufacturers understand this concept of accurate vs. pleasing better than anyone else. They've done the market research. It explains why, for instance, Canon used to have the equivalent of its 'neutral' picture style as the in-camera default, but now they've switched to 'standard' -- which is much brighter, more contrasty, more saturated, and much less accurate.

With the new Adobe Standard beta profiles we've tried to strike a balance between pleasing vs. accurate. This is obviously very subjective. The DNG Profile Editor allows one to build custom profiles to optimize colorimetric accuracy, but don't be surprised if you like the Adobe Standard beta profiles more in some (or even many) practical cases.
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Dan Altick
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 02:18:41 PM »
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Eric,

What you say makes sense, but I think those camera manufacturers are assuming that we will not be following up with our own adjustments.  That's why they put JPEG adjustments in the camera.

My impression of profiles to date (i.e. input, working, and output) is they are intended to maintain accurate and consistent color throughout the workflow.  Any color or tonal adjustments beyond that could be added during the workflow.  This can be done even at ingestion with ACR or LR presets.  I have quite a few ACR presets that I choose from at ingestion to add extra punch or contrast to my images to give them a more pleasing look, but I don't use the calibrate tab for this.  My calibrate tab has two presets: one for daylight and one for tungsten that I created with Thomas's script.  I don't touch those generally unless I'm attempting to add some extra special effects over and above what I can achieve using the other ACR/LR sliders and curves.  I consider those calibrate sliders my "accurate" reference point, and I don't typically won't to alter that.  Now this functionality has shifted to DNG profiles with more control, which is great, but does it offer me more control than what I can acheive through the other ACR/LR controls, and if so, do I really want to alter my realistic reference point to something unrealistic?  I could be missing some fundamental concept to input profiles that hopefully someone will shed some light on for me.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 02:26:57 PM by Dan Altick » Logged
Dan Altick
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 09:38:57 PM »
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I may have found the answer to my own question.  It appears there is much finer control over the colors with the Profile Editor.  Given that, I can understand using the editor to simulate charateristics of other cameras and raw editors.  I didn't realize that ACR/LR was unable to do that through it's own controls.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 07:30:26 AM by Dan Altick » Logged
Nick Rains
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 10:21:49 PM »
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Quote
Ps: Something which many people may not have discovered yet is that the Ingest dialog box allows you to specify a profile. This means that once you have one that you prefer for a particular camera, it can automatically be applied to all files brought into Lightroom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Michael

Where is this function? I can only see 'develop settings' so I assume you must set up a preset with a particular profile and then use that. Or have I missed something?
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Nick Rains
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madmanchan
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 07:25:30 AM »
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Here you go, Nick:

http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_P...efaultProfileLR
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michael
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 07:33:59 AM »
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Nick,

Don't tell me that you haven't read my article on this?  

Michael
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AndreG
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2008, 08:44:52 AM »
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Hi all,

I would like to create a profile for a specific color temperature ex: studio work at 5400K. I photographed a Gretag McBeth chart, set the white balance in LR and exported it as a DNG. Opened the Profile Editor whent under the Chart folder. I get three options 2800K, 6500K or both.

There I am lost. What should I choose? Or am I missing the point.

Does the chart option creates a recipe based on the DNG of the chart set to 5400K regardless of the 2800K or 6500K option?

Thank you for sharring,

André
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AndreG
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 07:16:46 AM »
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Hi all,

I would like to create a profile for a specific color temperature ex: studio work at 5400K. I photographed a Gretag McBeth chart, set the white balance in LR and exported it as a DNG. Opened the Profile Editor whent under the Chart folder. I get three options 2800K, 6500K or both.

There I am lost. What should I choose? Or am I missing the point.

Does the chart option creates a recipe based on the DNG of the chart set to 5400K regardless of the 2800K or 6500K option?

Thank you for sharring,

André
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213168\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, I found the answer signed by madmanchan in another tread:

No, you can photograph the CC under any illuminant. The instructions you're referring to only applies to the case where you've specified that you want to use the Chart Wizard feature __only__ to build 6500 K corrections (i.e., you choose 6500 K from the popup menu in the Chart tab).

For your case, when you're building a profile for 4800 K, choose "Both Color Tables" from the profile menu popup and it will work fine.

Regarding the error: the DNG Profile Editor checks all gray patches to see if they are relatively free of color casts. This is a sanity check. There are 3 possible reasons you might be getting the error: (1) you really do have a color cast, in which case reshoot your target carefully or (2) your image is very noisy (should try using low ISO to shoot the CC), or (3) maybe you didn't position the 4 markers appropriately to identify the 4 color patches?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 09:06:50 AM »
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Here you go, Nick:

http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_P...efaultProfileLR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212283\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It might actually be a bit "cleaner" and certainly easier for users in the future to actually see the profiles listed in the import dialog. Maybe for 3.0.

Maybe even in the develop popup, below presets, separated by ----
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Andrew Rodney
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