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Author Topic: capture one 4.1 Vs Ligtroom 1.4  (Read 6951 times)
woof75
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« on: July 31, 2008, 04:55:35 PM »
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First off, capture one 4.1 is horrible to use, the worst I've used in as long as I can remember, it's slooowww too how modern software can be this user unfriendly is beyond me. Luckily the out the box colour rendering is pretty close to what I want so I can usually work around it. Lightoom is much better in all aspects of usability. However, look at these tests. (capture one files start with cptr1 and LR files start with lr).
The difference is amazing, the capture one files make the LR files look awful, I haven't spent a massive amount of time massaging the files, I did sharpen them as best as I could, I turned off most of the noise reduction in both the programs, I prefer the way it looks). The LR files are so smudged looking and the subtlety of tone and colour is pathetic compared. All of these segments are from the same file processed the best I could in LR and capture one 4.1 DB. (I couldn't show the entire image as it is from a yet to be released cover image).

In sequence, left to right, the files are: 1)Capture one, 2)Lightroom, 3)Lightroom, 4)Capture one, 5)Lightroom and 6)capture one.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 05:01:36 PM by woof75 » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2008, 05:47:32 PM »
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First off, capture one 4.1 is horrible to use, the worst I've used in as long as I can remember, it's slooowww too how modern software can be this user unfriendly is beyond me. Luckily the out the box colour rendering is pretty close to what I want so I can usually work around it. Lightoom is much better in all aspects of usability. However, look at these tests. (capture one files start with cptr1 and LR files start with lr).
The difference is amazing, the capture one files make the LR files look awful, I haven't spent a massive amount of time massaging the files, I did sharpen them as best as I could, I turned off most of the noise reduction in both the programs, I prefer the way it looks). The LR files are so smudged looking and the subtlety of tone and colour is pathetic compared. All of these segments are from the same file processed the best I could in LR and capture one 4.1 DB. (I couldn't show the entire image as it is from a yet to be released cover image).

In sequence, left to right, the files are: 1)Capture one, 2)Lightroom, 3)Lightroom, 4)Capture one, 5)Lightroom and 6)capture one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212158\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

C1 4.1 rules for Phase files.  What are you running C1 4 on?  On my Macs C1 4 blows LR away in terms of speed.
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woof75
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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2008, 05:55:37 PM »
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C1 4.1 rules for Phase files.  What are you running C1 4 on?  On my Macs C1 4 blows LR away in terms of speed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212165\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On a macbook which is actually surprisingly fast for most software, PS etc.
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TMARK
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2008, 07:32:04 PM »
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On a macbook which is actually surprisingly fast for most software, PS etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212168\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Strange, because on my Mac Pro processes P30+ files in 3 - 4 seconds.  MacBookPro speed is a little slower, but not much.  Maybe something is slowing down C1 on your system?
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2008, 08:13:35 PM »
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For RAW file processing I have pretty much stopped using LR, Aperture, Canon DPP and Bridge in favor of C1 4.1.

Although perhaps not as fast as LR and Aperture for working through a lot of files, the quality of the images, in my opinion, are much better with less work. Also final batch outputting seems faster than Aperture and at least as fast as LR.

I am primarily using it for Canon 5D files although also with P45+ files.
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Ian L. Sitren
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2008, 08:21:23 PM »
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For RAW file processing I have pretty much stopped using LR, Aperture, Canon DPP and Bridge in favor of C1 4.1.

Although perhaps not as fast as LR and Aperture for working through a lot of files, the quality of the images, in my opinion, are much better with less work. Also final batch outputting seems faster than Aperture and at least as fast as LR.

I am primarily using it for Canon 5D files although also with P45+ files.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I personally would not use anything but C-1.. I still prefer 3.7.9 and will dab with 4.1 when the pro version comes out...

I agree that Lightroom seems to smear (de-Noise) the images some how even when everything turned off.
Snook
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 10:42:30 PM »
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In follow up, I must say that I just worked on a fairly high volume of files from a shoot with a Canon 5D in C1 4.1. I processed the RAW files and batched out 152 print ready without ever going into PhotoShop. This was a commercial ad/brochure job.

It went very quickly and the end result is better than I could have asked.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 10:42:47 PM by SecondFocus » Logged

Ian L. Sitren
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Natasa Stojsic
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 10:46:03 PM »
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First off, capture one 4.1 is horrible to use, the worst I've used in as long as I can remember, it's slooowww too how modern software can be this user unfriendly is beyond me. Luckily the out the box colour rendering is pretty close to what I want so I can usually work around it. Lightoom is much better in all aspects of usability. However, look at these tests. (capture one files start with cptr1 and LR files start with lr).
The difference is amazing, the capture one files make the LR files look awful, I haven't spent a massive amount of time massaging the files, I did sharpen them as best as I could, I turned off most of the noise reduction in both the programs, I prefer the way it looks). The LR files are so smudged looking and the subtlety of tone and colour is pathetic compared. All of these segments are from the same file processed the best I could in LR and capture one 4.1 DB. (I couldn't show the entire image as it is from a yet to be released cover image).

In sequence, left to right, the files are: 1)Capture one, 2)Lightroom, 3)Lightroom, 4)Capture one, 5)Lightroom and 6)capture one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212158\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

woof75,

why is the skin color so different on the thumbnail (from the same image) from the original color when you press the thumbnail and look at the full size image?  

or... what was your original preference?
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[span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:black']N a t a s a   S t o j s i c[/span][/span][span style='color:gray']  .......................................................................................................................................... [/span]
[span style='color:gray']PHASE[/span][span style='color:skyblue']ONE[/span] [span style='color:gray']P30[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']+[/span][/span]| [span style='color:red']MAMIYA[/span] [span style='color:gray']645 AFD II [/span]  [span style='font-family:impact'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'][span style='color:#98AFC7'] | 28mm f4.5 D. AF | 35mm f3.5 AF | 55-110mm f4.5 AF Zoom | 80mm f2.8 AF | 120mm f4.0 MF Macro | 150mm f3.5 AF[/span][/span][/span]
T-1000
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 11:28:22 PM »
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I agree that LR favors the "painterly" rendering, while C1 just gives straight detail, and has good built in sharpening settings, but you can do much better than that in LR.  

I guess this is why people hate tests.  Everyone does everything differently.

I grabbed a P30 file from the Capture Integration test (hope they don't mind).

C14.1 vs. LR 2.0: (disregard color and white balance, because they're craptastic).

C1 settings:
Sharpening = Standard 3.7 sharpening = 130, 1.3, 1
Luminance NR = 0
Color NR = 45 (can't do 100, because it screws everything up, and the best color NR in the world was from pre-3.7 or C13.7 with "use pre-3.7 color noise suppression" checked in preferences).

LR main settings:
Clarity = 52
Sharpening = 25
Radius = 0.5
Detail = 100
Masking = 0
Luminance NR = 0
Color NR = 100

Notice that LR handles wide edged sharpening better (seen in arm crops), and C1, with the applied sharpening, favors fine detail sharpening instead, but has a bit of sharpening artifacts.  

The last face crop from LR has the above settings with an added USM in PS of 100, .3, 0.

Since LR seems to handle wide edged detail better than fine edged detail, this final move handles the fine detail (like in the beard) and leaves you with good sharpening, no sharpening artifacts, and no noise of any kind really, but still a hint of the painterly look.  It's just different.  If you don't like that look, than, LR is not for you.

I'm still on C13.7.

[attachment=7727:attachment]
[attachment=7728:attachment]
[attachment=7729:attachment]
[attachment=7730:attachment]
[attachment=7731:attachment]
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SeanFS
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 11:45:49 PM »
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First off, capture one 4.1 is horrible to use, the worst I've used in as long as I can remember, it's slooowww too how modern software can be this user unfriendly is beyond me. Luckily the out the box colour rendering is pretty close to what I want so I can usually work around it. Lightoom is much better in all aspects of usability. However, look at these tests. (capture one files start with cptr1 and LR files start with lr).
The difference is amazing, the capture one files make the LR files look awful, I haven't spent a massive amount of time massaging the files, I did sharpen them as best as I could, I turned off most of the noise reduction in both the programs, I prefer the way it looks). The LR files are so smudged looking and the subtlety of tone and colour is pathetic compared. All of these segments are from the same file processed the best I could in LR and capture one 4.1 DB. (I couldn't show the entire image as it is from a yet to be released cover image).

In sequence, left to right, the files are: 1)Capture one, 2)Lightroom, 3)Lightroom, 4)Capture one, 5)Lightroom and 6)capture one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212158\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I persist in using capture one even though it runs slowly on my G5, on the macbook , with 4gb ram , it runs really well and processes fast. I can't get away from the colour it gets out of my Canon files, Camera raw and lightroom along with Aperture just don't do it for me ,and I like the detail. As someone else said , you don't really need to got to Photoshop after as it will do it all.
The only thng I would like is some sort of CA control and vignetting - and of course more speed , then it would be almost perfect.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 12:01:06 AM »
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The difference is amazing, the capture one files make the LR files look awful, I haven't spent a massive amount of time massaging the files, I did sharpen them as best as I could, I turned off most of the noise reduction in both the programs, I prefer the way it looks).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212158\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This was also the case for my ZD and D3 files. I have not checked LR 2.0 yet, but I didn't read Adobe mention enhanced detail as one of the features of 2.0, so I guess that they probably didn't work on that. It is unclear to me whether they acknowledge the fact that 1.4 was significantly behind the curve in terms of demoisacing.

It is really sad that Adobe is not looking at a plug-in approach for the conversion part of lightroom as I suggested several times more than one year ago...

The workflow of Lightroom with the conversion quality of C1 or Raw Developper would be a very convincing tool!

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
ericstaud
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2008, 12:14:06 AM »
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woof75,

why is the skin color so different on the thumbnail (from the same image) from the original color when you press the thumbnail and look at the full size image?  

or... what was your original preference?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The jpegs are in the Profoto colorspace.  The larger jpeg is tagged with the proper colorspace and therefore shows correctly on you monitor if you are using a color managed browser.  The small thumbs are untagged, so on apple computers the monitor colorspace is applied to the thumb (something close to sRGB), and on windows machines the thumbs are assumed to be sRGB.
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woof75
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 07:14:38 AM »
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I agree that LR favors the "painterly" rendering, while C1 just gives straight detail, and has good built in sharpening settings, but you can do much better than that in LR. 

I guess this is why people hate tests.  Everyone does everything differently.

I grabbed a P30 file from the Capture Integration test (hope they don't mind).

C14.1 vs. LR 2.0: (disregard color and white balance, because they're craptastic).

C1 settings:
Sharpening = Standard 3.7 sharpening = 130, 1.3, 1
Luminance NR = 0
Color NR = 45 (can't do 100, because it screws everything up, and the best color NR in the world was from pre-3.7 or C13.7 with "use pre-3.7 color noise suppression" checked in preferences).

LR main settings:
Clarity = 52
Sharpening = 25
Radius = 0.5
Detail = 100
Masking = 0
Luminance NR = 0
Color NR = 100

Notice that LR handles wide edged sharpening better (seen in arm crops), and C1, with the applied sharpening, favors fine detail sharpening instead, but has a bit of sharpening artifacts. 

The last face crop from LR has the above settings with an added USM in PS of 100, .3, 0.

Since LR seems to handle wide edged detail better than fine edged detail, this final move handles the fine detail (like in the beard) and leaves you with good sharpening, no sharpening artifacts, and no noise of any kind really, but still a hint of the painterly look.  It's just different.  If you don't like that look, than, LR is not for you.

I'm still on C13.7.

Yes these tests can be hard, all I can say is I tried to make the files look the best they could to my eye from the two different programs and the results are consistent with my general experience.
A few people mentioned speed to not be an issue for them, I find speed to be fine when processing a file but terrible for things like showing a change, there's a delay when I alter things, the screen is fuzzy for a couple of seconds before it clears to show the changes.
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2008, 06:50:40 PM »
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T-1000 to my eye the C1 files win on all counts, detail, wide edge, and skin tones.
Not even close.
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2008, 06:54:12 PM »
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Yes, but I don't think LR is quite as bad as was shown in the shots from the original post, but that's because everyone has their own different settings that they use, so it's just too hard to compare.

But one thing is clear to me:  C1 just gives you straight detail, and LR has the painterly/smudgy sort of look in general.
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2008, 07:55:08 PM »
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T-1000, I agree, your LR posts do look better than the earlier ones.
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2008, 08:36:41 PM »
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C1 4 is great for noise on my canon 1d3, but v3 is much better for my P25 back. i like the new controls of v4, it took a little getting used to, some changes were good, others i really dont like from v3, it  was frustrating for awhile and i didnt use it for awhile. the transition hasnt been seamless.
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Mort54
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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2008, 10:14:58 PM »
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I'm just amazed at all these unequivocal statements people are making on this thread, saying that one is clearly better than the other. As far as I'm concerned, the qualitative differences are anything but clear, and what differences I do see can be accounted for by different defaults or settings used in the applications. More specifically, how anyone can say the C1 conversions shown by T-1000 are "clearly" better than the LR conversions is a total mystery. The LR shot with the applied USM shows somewhat more detail in the shirt fabric, to point at just one area. Obviously, it has had USM applied, so you'd expect greater apparent detail. BUT that's my point. The differences are in the settings, not in the quality of the conversions. I don't doubt that there are differences in demosaicing quality, but they pale in comparison to the differences in app defaults and settings that come into play in comparisons like these.

Frankly, just like lens tests, and camera tests, etc, people more often than not see what they want and expect to see. And the more they spent on some product, the more likely it seems that it will be percieved by that person as being superior, whether in fact it is or isn't.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 10:19:21 PM by Mort54 » Logged

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Snook
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2008, 10:24:01 PM »
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I'm just amazed at all these unequivocal statements people are making on this thread, saying that one is clearly better than the other. As far as I'm concerned, the qualitative differences are anything but clear, and what differences I do see can be accounted for by different defaults or settings used in the applications. More specifically, how anyone can say the C1 conversions shown by T-1000 are "clearly" better than the LR conversions is a total mystery. The LR shot with the applied USM shows somewhat more detail in the shirt fabric, to point at just one area. Obviously, it has had USM applied, so you'd expect greater apparent detail. BUT that's my point. The differences are in the settings, not in the quality of the conversions. I don't doubt that there are differences in demosaicing quality, but they pale in comparison to the differences in app defaults and settings that come into play in comparisons like these.

Frankly, just like lens tests, and camera tests, etc, people more often than not see what they want and expect to see. And the more they spent on some product, the more likely it seems that it will be percieved by that person as being superior.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mort I will have to disagree with you 100%.
Sorry I just saw that you said the one T-1000 did.. that may be true but on Mine images C-1 is Clearly better. IMWO
I have done many test with my images and C-1 by far, Yes by far are better.. Especially for me which is all that matters.
The only one I have find almost as good is Raw Developer But I am used to C-1.
I agree that on the above images you should not judge...They all looked overly done in my mind.
I acutally dislike images I have change with lightroom unless doing some special adjustments or preset. But even then I change in C-1 then import to Lightroom. ACR through PSCS3 I find pretty weak also.
Besides being a personal choice... I do see a difference. Atleast on P30 files and on my 1DsMII files. anything else I cannot speak about.
Snook
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 10:25:32 PM by Snook » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2008, 10:42:48 PM »
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C1 4 is great for noise on my canon 1d3, but v3 is much better for my P25 back. i like the new controls of v4, it took a little getting used to, some changes were good, others i really dont like from v3, it  was frustrating for awhile and i didnt use it for awhile. the transition hasnt been seamless.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've just been looking at my old files, C1 3.7.9 looks much sharper, less noisy for architecture and landscape with my P45+ than V4

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 10:44:14 PM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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