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Author Topic: need new 30" monitor this month  (Read 10783 times)
narikin
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2008, 12:49:24 PM »
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it is supported, there's a good thread elsewhere on this site:
the last post (as of now) has a list of supported pucks.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=25887
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digitaldog
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2008, 12:59:29 PM »
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I have the Monaco Optix with the XR Pro colorimeter. Will this colorimeter work with the SpectraView II software?

Yes.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2008, 07:02:11 PM »
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Loving the NEC 3090 driven with SpectraView II software. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew,

I am reading your book and highly respect your opionion. I am somewhat confused about the pros/cons of getting a wide gamut display given current 8 bit technology in graphics card and LCD output.

I have seen your balloon analogy (a fixed number of color points will be further apart on a bigger balloon), Karl Langs statements about 0.8dE becomming 2dE when moving from an sRGB monitor to an AdobeRGB capable monitor, and others' statements about sRGB having ~30% less volume than AdobeRGB. While I understand volume comparisons in physical space, I am just not quite sure how to understand volume comparisons in color space.

I have not been able to see a wide gamut display side by side with a sRGB display (say NEC 3090 next to a NEC2490), and don't know what the difference will be in practice.

Will a properly calibrated (with Spectraview and an i1 Display2) nec 3090 make it difficult to edit, say, portraits, because there is just too big a distnace between adjacent RGB values on a wide gamut display? My wife does wedding photography, so that is important to her, while for my photography, the wider gamut is very attractive. For B/W work, what would the effect of the wide gamut be, in parctice?

Further, is a device like the i1 display2 even able to measure properly the whole gamut of a wide gamut display (I know that NEC provided a special wide gamut puck for the NEC 21 inch LCD backlit display. Further, according to Reid reviews, Karl Lang mentioned that calibrating/profiling the NEC2690 was problematic, something that was not a problem with the NEC 2490 narrower gamut model). What has your experience been calibrating/profiling  these monitors? And what is your take on Karls statements regarding the the advantage of sRGB gamut monitors for most jobs?

Yours and others' opinions and experience would be very much appreciated.

Regards,
Tore


PS: I understand that as long as graphics cards and LCDs put out 8 bit per channel, one should ideally have both an sRGB monitor for editing photos that stay within that space and an adobeRGB capable monitor for editing those photos that span a wider space. I am considering the NEC 2490/2690/3090, which I understand are excellent monitors with quite different gamuts. However, space constraints, fincancial constraints etc mean I can only get one monitor.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2008, 09:27:50 AM »
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Pro's of wide gamut displays:

You can view colors that fall outside the typical sRGB display.

Cons

The colorimetric values are farther apart in such a display so very subtle colors are more difficult to see. The deltaE values of say 123/23/45 and 123/24/45 are farther apart than in a smaller gamut display.

So, if you work with very subtle colors, you'll see them and how the differ better on a smaller gamut display (at the expense of saturated colors that fall outside sRGB display gamut). If you work with saturated colors that fall outside sRGB display, you can't view those colors (they are out of gamut).

Neither is something to lose sleep over. Someday we will hopefully have displays that can produce both behaviors, on the fly (the new DreamColor Display, which really is aimed at film production can do this). Or have one of each; wide gamut and sRGB like display.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2008, 03:41:38 PM »
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Thanks Andrew.

Since the gamut of the lcd3090 is very large (if not as large as the 2180 LED backlit display), I wonder if you know if the standard i1 display 2 might have difficulties with measuring the wide gamut of the lcd3090?


I note that NEC write(http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/TechnologyPapers/LCD2180WG-LEDTechPaper_121605.pdf) :
"The output color spectrum of the LCD2180WGLED
display presents a unique challenge to
the current generation of colorimeter devices
which were never designed to be used on such
a display
...
To overcome this, the optional SpectraViewII
color calibration package for the LCD2180WGLED
display includes a custom calibrated
Gretag iOne Display V2 colorimeter that has
been specifically calibrated for accurate
measurement of the display."



Regards and thanks for your input,
Tore
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digitaldog
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2008, 04:38:35 PM »
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Since the gamut of the lcd3090 is very large (if not as large as the 2180 LED backlit display), I wonder if you know if the standard i1 display 2 might have difficulties with measuring the wide gamut of the lcd3090?


problems? No although the white point measurements will not be exact (mine was off by about 500K). Having a colorimeter with a filter matrix expecting such a gamut would be preferable but you can use the current hardware and get good results.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2008, 04:51:59 PM »
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problems? No although the white point measurements will not be exact (mine was off by about 500K). Having a colorimeter with a filter matrix expecting such a gamut would be preferable but you can use the current hardware and get good results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Andrew,

Thanks for your quick and informative response.

Regards,
Tore
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tolsen
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 05:16:31 PM »
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Having a colorimeter with a filter matrix expecting such a gamut would be preferable but you can use the current hardware and get good results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew,

Given your warm recommendation of the NEC 3090, I ordered it.

I was wondering if the NEC SVII-LEDKIT for the LED backlit LCD2180WG LED would be the best choice, because it must have the filter matrix you mention - the gamuts of the  LCD2180WG LED  and the lcd3090 being quite close?

I am deciding between:
i) NEC SVII-LEDKIT - SpectraView LED Colorimeter & Software - Custom calibrated for the LCD2180WG-LED-BK - roughly 350 dollars

ii) dtp-94 and the Spectraview II software - roughly 270 dollars.

What would you suggest as best equipment and best practice for people calibrating wide gamut LCDs?

Does the use of a spectrophotometer improve results (unfortunately my colormunki is not supported by Spectraview)?

Please excuse if these are ignorant questions.

Regards,
Tore
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digitaldog
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2008, 05:21:36 PM »
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I was wondering if the NEC SVII-LEDKIT for the LED backlit LCD2180WG LED would be the best choice, because it must have the filter matrix you mention - the gamuts of the  LCD2180WG LED  and the lcd3090 being quite close?

I'm not sure that's recommended or not. The filters in that kit are mated to the LED, you might not want to go that route. I think you'll be fine with an off the shelf EyeOne Display or Optix.
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Andrew Rodney
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narikin
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2008, 05:25:56 PM »
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yes, that special kit is for the LED (not LCD) monitor.
if that one and only 20" LED model is what you are getting, then fine.

but if you are getting any of the LCD models, including the wide gamut LCD ones, then it should be the Spectraview software plus a regular monitor puck such as the x-rite/ i1
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tolsen
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2008, 06:12:30 PM »
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I'm not sure that's recommended or not. The filters in that kit are mated to the LED, you might not want to go that route. I think you'll be fine with an off the shelf EyeOne Display or Optix.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew,

Yet again: Thanks for your clear and unpretentious response. I think I might just go with the i1 display 2.

From NECs technical paper ( [a href=\"http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/TechnologyPapers/LCD2180WG-LEDTechPaper_121605.pdf]http://www.necdisplay.com/cms/documents/Te...aper_121605.pdf[/url] - page 8 text box on the far right )it seems that they say the colorimeter can be used with other displays as well:

"... the optional SpectraViewII
color calibration package for the LCD2180WGLED
display includes a custom calibrated
Gretag iOne Display V2 colorimeter that has
been specifically calibrated for accurate
measurement of the display.The device can
continue to be used to measure standard LCD
displays as well, if a multi-monitor configuration
is used."

Regards,
Tore
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tolsen
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« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2008, 06:23:15 PM »
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yes, that special kit is for the LED (not LCD) monitor.
if that one and only 20" LED model is what you are getting, then fine.

but if you are getting any of the LCD models, including the wide gamut LCD ones, then it should be the Spectraview software plus a regular monitor puck such as the x-rite/ i1
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Narikin,

Thanks for your reply. I could be wrong, but seems the NEC technical paper on the 20" LED backlit monitor says that you can use the special colorimeter for other monitors as well (see response to Andrew above). But I am in no position to say if it just works, is better/worse, on other wide gamut displays.

I would like to hear any insights you have.

Regards,
Tore
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digitaldog
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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2008, 03:04:38 PM »
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Contacted my sources inside NEC, they say for the 3090, got EyeOne Display-2, not the special LED branded unit.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2008, 05:58:57 PM »
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Contacted my sources inside NEC, they say for the 3090, got EyeOne Display-2, not the special LED branded unit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew,

Just saw your reply. I greatly appreciate you doing that. I will definetely get the EyeOne Display-2 and Spectraview II then.

Regards,
Tore
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Happyfish
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2008, 06:10:30 PM »
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way late to this thread  

having both the 2490 and a HP 3065 side by side the HP does show some wider gamut colors that the 2490 does not
say fall leaves for example the reds sometimes fall out of the 2490 and the red just tends to look the same across the leaf where the HP shows the colors continuing

also questions on why SVII as example on my 2490
my thoughts are nicer shadow detail and better color
using DTP94 and color eyes is very nice but SV gets you even nicer gradients and nicer shadow detail its not earth shattering but when you are spending this much its worth buying SV to get every bit out of the monitor you can

using Bill Atkinsons test print with all the colored shots as a example the one shot of the fall trees and the path leading into the woods using color eyes and SV to calibrate the 2490
I can see more detail in the tree trunks with SV and the fall colors are much nicer the reds and yellows are more distinct

prints coming off my IPF8000 with my own custom profiles match the SV colors a touch more accurately over the color eyes profile to give real world why I use SV


as far as wide gamut displays and wider colors or whatever you want to call them when adjusting  say a brides face
I have never noticed a problem with the wide gamut displays being to much a jump and causing problems
also editing images for color which is a major part of our business for other photographers
any monitor that is high quality being wide gamut or not can both do the job in my eye
using them to proof nice prints that might push the adobe colors the high gamut is nice to have

since the NEC 30 was not around a bit ago when I bought the HP we needed a few 30 inch for layout and kept the NEC for accuracy now the NEC 30 inch will be replacing our apple 30 inch very soon
in the near future I will be able to give a thought on the NEC 30 vs the 2490 side by side  

also for real world people depending on your business or living since I dont shoot commercial anymore and just weddings
for a wedding workflow where color accuracy is important but not as important as commercial a monitor like the HP 3065 vs a 24 or 265 inch monitor might be a nice benefit with the size
are the NEC more accurate and nicer  sure they are
but the 30 inch real estate will help workflow out so something to think about
wedding color is more about feeling IMHO than dead accuracy

best of both is of course the 30 inch NEC
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eronald
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« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2008, 06:51:58 PM »
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I think ColorMunki would make an ideal measuring instrument for the wide-gamut displays, but I don't know whether the software can handle it - yet.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
Czornyj
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2008, 07:08:18 AM »
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I think ColorMunki would make an ideal measuring instrument for the wide-gamut displays, but I don't know whether the software can handle it - yet.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215363\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think it may be possible to calibrate the display with i1d2, and only profile it with CM. There might only be a problem with the white point calibration, but there also might be some smart solution, depending on the profiler type (at least it's easy in case of SVII)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 07:09:27 AM by Czornyj » Logged

Marcin Kałuża
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2008, 08:10:54 AM »
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I think it may be possible to calibrate the display with i1d2, and only profile it with CM. There might only be a problem with the white point calibration, but there also might be some smart solution, depending on the profiler type (at least it's easy in case of SVII)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215440\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The colorimeters are dependent on display tech, the CM is a spectro so it's less prone to obsolescence. One tends to use a calibrator for a bunch of displays, better have one that can do a lot of stuff.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2008, 08:45:48 AM »
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The colorimeters are dependent on display tech, the CM is a spectro so it's less prone to obsolescence. One tends to use a calibrator for a bunch of displays, better have one that can do a lot of stuff.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215449\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not totally happy with the linearization done by i1pro spectrophotometer. It's perfect in lights and midtones, but it shows some banding and color shifts in shadows. Of course, I also prefer the idea of having something that can calibrate and profile anything I want.
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Marcin Kałuża
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2008, 11:57:04 AM »
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I ordered the 3090 about a month ago after returning from an advanced print class taught by John Paul Caponigro and Mac Holbert -- and a couple of emails with Andrew R  -- and I am ecstatic with the unit.  Had to do a bit of work to track down the Spectra II software since it did not show up as an option with the original order screen ... so I did not get to properly calibrate for about a week after I got it ... used the GMcBeth software for the interim and --yes -- the Sprectra II is a lot better for the 3090......

The unit is outstanding and puts the Apple 30" Cinema display next to it to shame -- better luminance, contrast and ... just flat out is easier on the eyes......
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