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Author Topic: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?  (Read 30502 times)
John MacLean
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« on: August 04, 2008, 01:57:03 PM »
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The Eizo is 4" smaller than the NEC, but is the display better?

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John
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John MacLean
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2008, 05:43:40 PM »
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anyone?
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tho_mas
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2008, 06:44:13 PM »
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anyone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't know which version of the NEC is available in the USA... you should check if the NEC can do hardware calibration. If not the Eizo would be the better choice.
Too, there are reports the NEC can't adjust a luminance level less than 140cd/qm. If that is too bright for you... the Eizo would be the better choice.
Beside this both are quite good displays.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 06:45:45 PM by tho_mas » Logged
dkeyes
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2008, 02:41:10 PM »
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Don't know which version of the NEC is available in the USA... you should check if the NEC can do hardware calibration. If not the Eizo would be the better choice.
Too, there are reports the NEC can't adjust a luminance level less than 140cd/qm. If that is too bright for you... the Eizo would be the better choice.
Beside this both are quite good displays.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have the 2690 and after calibrating with brightness turned all the way down, I was able to get the luminance to 120 (according to my Eye1 stats). I haven't compared it directly with an Eizo but I'm very happy with the performance of this monitor after switching from my Lacie Electron22 IV crt.
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John MacLean
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2008, 05:20:31 PM »
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Thanks so far.

I have a friend with the NEC, SV software, and an Eye One. It looks good, but I was wondering if any of the guru's like Jeff, Andrew or Michael have any side by side experience?

John
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2008, 05:54:28 PM »
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Thanks so far.

I have a friend with the NEC, SV software, and an Eye One. It looks good, but I was wondering if any of the guru's like Jeff, Andrew or Michael have any side by side experience?

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214880\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just reading...interested in this thread...wish i could be of some help John...I need to buy a monitor soon and was leaning toward the eizo here in france for 1269 euros...I can't buy the NEC 2490wuxi here, it isn't available...if it was I might purchase that...aahhh, decisions...

M

hmmm, one thing i read, of course this doesn't compare the monitor images...for the NEC you need the spectraview software/hardware package to adjust it fully, i think that means adjusting the hardware of the screen itself...LUT's?...(i'm not clear on this exactly)...the Eizo cg222w doesn't force you to buy the whole package...you can have your own puck say and software and it should do what the spectraview ll stuff does...at least from my reading on it I think this is the case...someone correct me if i'm wrong, please...
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John MacLean
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2008, 06:04:56 PM »
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Just reading...interested in this thread...wish i could be of some help John...I need to buy a monitor soon and was leaning toward the eizo here in france for 1269 euros...I can't buy the NEC 2490wuxi here, it isn't available...if it was I might purchase that...aahhh, decisions...

M

hmmm, one thing i read, of course this doesn't compare the monitor images...for the NEC you need the spectraview software/hardware package to adjust it fully, i think that means adjusting the hardware of the screen itself...LUT's?...(i'm not clear on this exactly)...the Eizo cg222w doesn't force you to buy the whole package...you can have your own puck say and software and it should do what the spectraview ll stuff does...at least from my reading on it I think this is the case...someone correct me if i'm wrong, please...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214887\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have an Eye One Photo/spectrophotometer so if I got the NEC and SV software I'm good to go. If I got the Eizo I could just use Eye One Match software.

According to Andrew Rodney the SV software provides a higher quality calibration than i1 Match. But that isn't too shabby either!
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tho_mas
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2008, 08:28:54 PM »
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If I got the Eizo I could just use Eye One Match software.
no. Eizos Color Navigator 5.1 is included and supports your probe. The software is really very good.
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dkeyes
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 12:59:09 PM »
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I have an Eye One Photo/spectrophotometer so if I got the NEC and SV software I'm good to go. If I got the Eizo I could just use Eye One Match software.

According to Andrew Rodney the SV software provides a higher quality calibration than i1 Match. But that isn't too shabby either!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have an Eye One Display2 and hit my specs exactly (gamma, luminance, etc) without the SV software. Don't know how the SV software can add anything quality wise. All it does is make the calibration easier by not having to do any hardware adjustments (ie. turning down brightness, etc.)
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 05:08:30 PM »
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no. Eizos Color Navigator 5.1 is included and supports your probe. The software is really very good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214920\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes, that's what I read...I can use my eye one puck with eizo's software and it'll do what the spectra stuff does for NEC monitors...still doin' some reading, research, but these days i'm leaning toward this CG222W from Eizo...still read good things about the apple 23" displays despite their age and some criticism here and there about quality control problems...

I just won't spend the bucks here for the 2690 and spectraview ll package (there's also the sean ried piece on wide gamut monitors and karl lang's advice against them right now)...list price for the NEC monitor alone is 1,126 euros...it's 1,559 euros with spectraview ll...over four hundred euros...no thanks...it's even more obscene for the 2190uxi with and without spectraview...814 without and a whopping 1,513 with sv ll...just ridiculous...NEC france, just nuts...

Doesn't seem like there's anyone around here with CG222w monitor experience...

M
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tho_mas
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 05:21:03 PM »
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Doesn't seem like there's anyone around here with CG222w monitor experience...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215072\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've got the CG241W and as they both have the same panels I think the 24'' is just bigger. So I can tell you a lot about this display... but not that much about the NEC.


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there's also ... karl lang's advice against them right now
But you know that the CG222W has a wide gamut, too?! But I do not share his opion about that topic. Everything works quite perfect with wide gamut displays in a color managed workflow.
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peteh
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 05:03:21 PM »
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I've got the CG241W and as they both have the same panels I think the 24'' is just bigger. So I can tell you a lot about this display... but not that much about the NEC.
 But you know that the CG222W has a wide gamut, too?! But I do not share his opion about that topic. Everything works quite perfect with wide gamut displays in a color managed workflow.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm VERY happy with my 2690 and spectraview and eye one.Why spend that much more for the EIZO?
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 05:23:53 PM »
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I've got the CG241W and as they both have the same panels I think the 24'' is just bigger. So I can tell you a lot about this display... but not that much about the NEC.
 But you know that the CG222W has a wide gamut, too?! But I do not share his opion about that topic. Everything works quite perfect with wide gamut displays in a color managed workflow.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes, the cg222w is also wide gamut, why i'm hesitant...i can't really argue with you or anyone about the facts pro and con about why wide gamut is not the best choice today...i'm just reading and quoting...but karl lang's an authority so i'm paying attention...I think sean reid also knows what he's talkin' about...

if i had some hands on experience maybe i could agree or not...workin' blind here...sad to say...buying an expensive monitor for color work, b&w work, and choosing based on other peoples language/logic/feel...it isn't making me happy...but sometimes I find myself making a decision without the best info at hand...it's life...

now, if only someone would open a monitor shop near my home and display all these monitors and i could walk in with some of my work and compare it on three or four different monitors i'd be a happy camper...

M
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tho_mas
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 05:33:17 PM »
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...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Isn't there any printing or design company nearby? So that you can take a look?
The key arguments were - if I remember correctly (read K. Langs article one year ago... do not remember everything) - that the steps in tonalvalues are too big so that you cannot adjust very smooth transitions. Is that right? And is that one of the arguments you are afraid of?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 05:34:41 PM by tho_mas » Logged
Morris Taub
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2008, 05:33:34 PM »
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I'm VERY happy with my 2690 and spectraview and eye one.Why spend that much more for the EIZO?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

here in France the NEC with spectraview ll is like between 1750 and 1860 euros with tax included, the eizo is 1232 (checked the prices today here in France) and I don't need to buy software, I already have an eye one puck...so i'm good to go...yes, the eizo is smaller but i was happy with my old monitor and this eizo would be somewhat bigger, 22" would do me good...i personally don't need 26"...maybe in a few years when they come down in price and i have more desk space  

M
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2008, 12:14:03 PM »
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The Eizo is 4" smaller than the NEC, but is the display better?

Thanks,
John
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John, I found this site today via a thread on the Fred Miranda site, never heard of them before, but this guy talks about the NEC and the CG222W...thought you might find this interesting...

also, I found conflicting info on the panel for the cg222w...one german site says it's pva another says it's s-ips...now I wonder...

kind regards...

M

[a href=\"http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286&acat=16]http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?opti...&id=286&acat=16[/url]shootsmarter monitor suggestions
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2008, 12:22:18 PM »
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Isn't there any printing or design company nearby? So that you can take a look?
The key arguments were - if I remember correctly (read K. Langs article one year ago... do not remember everything) - that the steps in tonalvalues are too big so that you cannot adjust very smooth transitions. Is that right? And is that one of the arguments you are afraid of?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi tho_mas...you know, that's exactly what my wife suggested...go to a design studio around here, see what they're using...but right now it's mid august, the south of france, everyone is on vacation...there is a small design studio near here, i'll try and to them, see what they use...but i'll have to wait a week or so...seems like france just shuts down in august and everyone goes on vacation...

and then, who knows what the hell they're using...maybe sony artisans or something...

I'll go through the article again, but if i remember right it's the difference between what the wide gamut monitors work with, 10, 12 bit...and the reality of the pipeline...photoshop, video card, printers...all 8 bit...i've got to check this again...

but in reading i got the feel that the two were not jiving in terms of real world 4 color press print and inkjet printers...like what i'd see on the screen of a wide gamut monitor would detail more shadow, color etc, but it wouldn't be representative of what the final product would be...

more later...

M
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tho_mas
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2008, 05:48:19 PM »
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I'll go through the article again, but if i remember right it's the difference between what the wide gamut monitors work with, 10, 12 bit...and the reality of the pipeline...photoshop, video card, printers...all 8 bit...i've got to check this again...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The DVI connection is 8bit, right. But the display (the CG222W) has internal 16bit processing.
If you create a smooth gradation from black to white in 16bit in Photoshop in a gamma different from that of the display (say the display is set to gamma 2.2 and the gradation is made in gamma 1.Cool you may not see any banding. If you switch the gradation to 8bit you suddenly see more banding. Why that? How can the display can take notice of the 8bit switch in Photoshop when the image is sent through the 8bit DVI chanel? The display re-calculates all the colors. I'm no technician I don't how it works but it works fine. As the CG222W has 12bit LUT and 16bit processing that will be fine.

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but in reading i got the feel that the two were not jiving in terms of real world 4 color press print and inkjet printers...like what i'd see on the screen of a wide gamut monitor would detail more shadow, color etc, but it wouldn't be representative of what the final product would be...
Actually it's the opposite. Printer gamuts are bigger than sRGB. And Wide Gamut Displays can show much more of the printable colors.
When I eye up prints in a lightbox under D50 lighting conditions side by side to the display... the results are dead on match. Luminance, contrast/gradation, colors... it's just fine. No problem here. Not as long as I use photographic or coated papers.

On the other hand: there is a difference to a sRGB display in adjustments. Smaller image adjustments lead to heftier differences. But I think this is just because the display is accurate linearised and especially the dark tonalvalues are displayed much better as on a CRT. Too, on a display with smaller gamut (sRGB) a big part of the modulation in colors is clipped as sRGB is simply not able to show them. And the wide gamut display will show these modulations.
So you use to get used to it. But you will.

Quote
and then, who knows what the hell they're using...maybe sony artisans or something...
as long as someone has a wide gamut display this will give you a good impression.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 05:51:19 PM by tho_mas » Logged
mbalensiefer
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2008, 11:18:17 PM »
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I just wrote Eizo to see when their next upgrade cycle is, and I specifically mentioned the failure of the many (new LED) displays that use this tech to calibrate correctly.

I think that the new calibration devices should also have an "LED" setting, as the flourescent tube displays don't calibrate the same as these.
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2008, 12:45:49 AM »
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Isn't there any printing or design company nearby? So that you can take a look?
The key arguments were - if I remember correctly (read K. Langs article one year ago... do not remember everything) - that the steps in tonalvalues are too big so that you cannot adjust very smooth transitions. Is that right? And is that one of the arguments you are afraid of?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

here ya go tho_mas...found this on the betterlight forum, but it says it was actually taken from the luminous-landscape forum  

and so yes, harder to make color corrections with these tone values, the bigger steps, or the difference between the monitor and the pipeline used...

this dates back to 2006 but in terms of pipeline for bits the info is still true today, at least that's what Sean Reid says in his recent article on the NEC 2490wuxi...


"1) A wide gamut LCD display is not a good thing for most (95%) of high
end users. The data that leaves your graphic card and travels over the
DVI cable is 8 bit per component. You can't change this. The OS, ICC
CMMs, the graphic card, the DVI spec, and Photoshop will all have to be
upgraded before this will change and that's going to take a while. What
does this mean to you? It means that when you send RGB data to a wide
gamut display the colorimetric distance between any two colors is much
larger. As an example, lets say you have two adjacent color patches one
is 230,240,200 and the patch next to it is 230,241,200. On a standard
LCD or CRT those two colors may be around .8 Delta E apart. On an Adobe
RGB display those colors might be 2 Delta E apart on an ECI RGB display
this could be as high as 4 delta E.

It's very nice to be able to display all kinds of saturated colors you
may never use in your photographs, however if the smallest visible
adjustment you can make to a skin tone is 4 delta E you will become
very frustrated very quickly.

2) More bits in the display does not fix this problem. 10 bit LUTs, 14
Bit 3D LUTs, 10 bit column drivers, time-domain bits, none of these
technologies will solve problem 1. Until the path from photoshop to the
pixel is at least 10 bits the whole way, I advise sticking to a display
with something close to ColorMatch or sRGB.

3) Unless the display has "TRUE 10 bit or greater 1D LUTs that are
8-10-10" user front panel controls for color temp, blacklevel and gamma
are useless for calibration and can in fact make things worse. An
8-10-8 3D LUT will not hurt things and can help achieve a fixed
contrast ratio which is a good thing.

Only Mitsubishi/NEC displays with "GammaComp" have 8-10-8 3D LUTs at
this time. Some Samsung displays may have this I don't test many of
their panels as the performance in other areas has been lacking.

Only the Eizo 210, 220 and NEC2180WG have 8-10-10 paths. If you really
want to know... the path in the Eizo is "8-14bit3D-8-10bit1D-10" go
figure that one out ;-) The 2180WG has an actual 10 bit DVI interface
with a 10-10-10 path but nothing supports it so you can't use it yet -
but for $6500 your ready when it does ;-)

4) The testing methodology for the seybold report article was very
poor. It demonstrates the authors complete lack of understanding with
regards to LCD calibration. At some point I may write a full rebuttal.
As an example the fact that Apple's display has no controls other than
backlight is actually a very good thing for an 8-8-8 LCD if your going
to use calibration. Apple optimizes the factory LUTs so as to provide
the most individual colors. smooth greyscale and the least loss. Then
the calibration is done in the graphic card LUT. As these are all 8 bit
it's best if the user does not mess with the display LUTs at all.
Overall Lab to Lab Delta E of 23 patches is a very poor metric to
evaluate a display. It completely leaves out many areas of color space
(the tool they used is designed to make the colorimeter look good so
tuff patches are not included) contrast ratio, stability, aging,
greyscale performance and other important considerations.

Many people ask for my recommendations. I am not happy with anything we
have right now. That said I can evaluate what there is.

Price performance wise the great bargain is the NEC 1980SXI BK the
price/vs colorimetric performance of this display can't be beat. The
2180ux Is a great display at a reasonable but high end price.

In the mid-high wide screen I like the Apple and the SONY. Reject the
display if uniformity is bad and make sure whomever you buy it from
will exchange it.

The Eizo 210 is great if you can justify the current cost. Give it two
years and most high-end displays should perform at this level. 220 is a
great display but suffers from all the downfalls of any wide gamut
display.

There is no reason to buy the La Cie 321 it's just an NEC with their
label on it and an extra $400.

The Monaco Optix XR is the best colorimeter for LCDs at this time.

These are my personal opinions.

Karl Lang"
End quote

The Seybold report that Karl Lang is referring to:
[a href=\"http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Intelliproof/seyboldreport.pdf]http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Int...yboldreport.pdf[/url]

Reply by Andrew Rodney:
"When Karl talks displays, best to listen. He's the father of both the original PressView, ColorMatch RGB and the Artisan."
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:52:57 AM by momo2 » Logged

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