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Author Topic: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?  (Read 30096 times)
tho_mas
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« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2008, 05:12:40 AM »
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here ya go tho_mas...found this on the betterlight forum, but it says it was actually taken from the luminous-landscape forum  [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
this one? -> [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613[/url]

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and so yes, harder to make color corrections with these tone values, the bigger steps, or the difference between the monitor and the pipeline used...

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As an example, lets say you have two adjacent color patches one
is 230,240,200 and the patch next to it is 230,241,200. On a standard
LCD or CRT those two colors may be around .8 Delta E apart. On an Adobe
RGB display those colors might be 2 Delta E apart on an ECI RGB display
this could be as high as 4 delta E.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215605\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
4 DeltaE?. DeltaE in these two cases is less than 2 and only as Lab values are based on integer values. Too, I can not see any difference on the display in this example neither in ECI RGB (V2) nor in AdobeRGB nor in my MonitorRGB. I think the irritating thing here is that he's only referring to RGB values of the image. But the RGB values of the image are not the trigger values for the display - in a color managed workflow the RGB values will not be sent direct to display. They will be transformed before (namely relative colormetric).
Beside this... what is the better choice? To adjust wide gamut images on a sRGB display and being blind for the out of gamut colors? Or to adjust the images on a display that covers the entire (at least a huge part of the) printer profile?

If you are afraid of too crass steps in tonalvalues... make the adjsutments on layers and set opacity of the layers to 50% or something :-) ... but again, this is not going to happen.
Thomas
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 05:20:15 AM by tho_mas » Logged
mbalensiefer
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2008, 10:51:45 PM »
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Ha! I KNEW that Monaco had the better calibrator...
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David Mantripp
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 01:44:53 PM »
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If I could just chip in on this discussion, which I've been following closely, since I'm also monitor shopping, with this question -

Is there any difference apart from pixel pitch between the Nec 2490 & 2690 ?  I currently have a 1st generation Apple Cinema Display, which has larger pixels than, say, the current Apple monitors. Personally I prefer this, and have got a Samsung 26" LCD for general work.

I've read some opinion that finer pitch is better for evaluating sharpness, but I can't really see that myself.  Finer pitch just means you need to have your face closer to the screen....
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 03:52:42 PM »
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John, I found this site today via a thread on the Fred Miranda site, never heard of them before, but this guy talks about the NEC and the CG222W...thought you might find this interesting...

also, I found conflicting info on the panel for the cg222w...one german site says it's pva another says it's s-ips...now I wonder...

kind regards...

M

http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?opti...&id=286&acat=16shootsmarter monitor suggestions
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ok, so I'm replying to myself which kind of makes me feel neurotic...but i wrote to eizo and here's the response :

"It is an S-PVA type. This panel has large color space, really accurate additive color mixture, and more. Viewing angle is not its strongest suit, but it is very popular with photographers thus far. It may be restrictive for collaborative viewing with multiple  color critical users.
However,
See this great review for more details!"

he's referring to the shootsmarter article...then i mentioned how until now I've always read that ips was better overall quality than pva, and he responded...

"A year ago, I was still touting the S-IPS monitors as the best in the world. The CG19, 211, and 221 still have the best general performance of all Eizo panels. However,
 In the past year we have seen the beginning of a transformation. The companies who traditionally make IPS (NEC, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, LG) have no progressive roadmap for the future. It Is my opinion the LG quality is that strong either. The improvement is coming from S-PVA as is  the technical roadmap. So, the new PVA units we have excel in several categories. I have been quoted as saying the PVA’s while from some perspective are not my very best monitor, but they are my best package-all things considered. Eizo’s choice seems to be PVA as we go forward (with a few exceptions), and I am fully behind this choice given the panels that are out there. It will be hard to find IPS from major quality manufacturers like Hitachi in the future."

So, I'm gonna do a bit more research/reading...i mean i have to admit, the color, detail, overall quality of the LaCie 324 I saw a few weeks ago was very nice and it has a pva panel...

M
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Czornyj
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 04:34:12 PM »
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See this great review for more details!"

he's referring to the shootsmarter article...
OMG...

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In the past year we have seen the beginning of a transformation (blah, blah, blah) So, the new PVA units we have excel in several categories.
I bet they excel in price category.
In the beginning, IPS panels disappeared from the notebooks. Now it seems they start to disappear from the graphics monitors. If there's a trend here, I don't like it....
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 04:34:28 PM by Czornyj » Logged

digitaldog
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2008, 04:41:20 PM »
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The best advise I can give about any hardware review (well at least color management and displays) on Smartshooter is to ignore it. Its absolute crap.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Morris Taub
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2008, 04:49:04 PM »
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OMG...
I bet they excel in price category.
In the beginning, IPS panels disappeared from the notebooks. Now it seems they start to disappear from the graphics monitors. If there's a trend here, I don't like it....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215868\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ok, a salesman hawking his wares...maybe the photographer who writes the great review is his cousin, I don't know...

did laptops really have ips panels?...you pullin' my leg?...

so...czornyj...enlighten us please...are pva panels poopoo?...

i admit i'm skeptical of pva panels after all i've read...makes me want to just put my money down on the old apple monitor, buy it close to home, if there's a problem I walk it in, no fuss, no muss and be done with it, i'm tired of the research,...i've heard people on both sides about Apple monitors, happy, not happy...jeff schewe, in the recent lightroom video says he uses two 30" apples, i think he said that...plus a wide gamut nec...maybe he has a cousin related to steve?...

M
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2008, 04:54:51 PM »
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The best advise I can give about any hardware review (well at least color management and displays) on Smartshooter is to ignore it. Its absolute crap.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Andrew...would you say the same about pva panels?...stay away if i'm doin' graphic design (4 color presses), photography, (mix of inkjet and 4c press)?...

It does seem that reputable people are saying s-ips panel monitors are the way to go...

However I still kinda like that LaCie 324 I saw...it had this good neutral quality to it, but it was compared to a 24" imac, glossy screen, in an Apple store so the lighting was quite bright, not my studio lighting...

I'm starting to feel a little confused...maybe too much info, oversaturated...maybe i just need some sleep...

M

ps. I am still considering a 2190uxi (no spectraview because they want like 700 euros extra for it here in France) and just calibrating with my eye one display two software/puck...can get this monitor for around 900 euros off amazon.fr...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 04:59:43 PM by momo2 » Logged

tho_mas
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2008, 05:02:51 PM »
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ok, so I'm replying to myself
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Accidentally skipped the question IPS vs. S-PVA... sorry.
The panels are... close! From my point of view. S-PVA is faster (Video) and basically has lower black.
Viewing angle of S-PVA might be slightly better with regard to contrast while IPS is better with regard to colors. That is what I have seen by now.
Recently did a private workshop and the guy has the CG221 and the NEC 21SV Reference. Both IPS. These monsters have a bloody perfect homogenity.
But the viewing angle... to be honest this would not be the argument pro or con IPS for me personally. The CG221 might be slightly better in this case as the CG241W. The NEC is not - if you move your head 20 centimeters white becomes yellowish.
That's all perfect! But as perfect as it can be as there are always some limitations.
I would not worry about that too much.
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Czornyj
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2008, 05:42:39 PM »
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did laptops really have ips panels?...you pullin' my leg?...
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display

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Viewing angle of S-PVA might be slightly better with regard to contrast while IPS is better with regard to colors. That is what I have seen by now.

I multiplied monitor calibration chart from that page:
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm

21" IPS panel:



21" PVA panel:

« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 05:43:54 PM by Czornyj » Logged

tho_mas
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2008, 05:47:16 PM »
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I multiplied monitor calibration chart from that page
And what do  the photos show from your point of view??
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Czornyj
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2008, 05:49:02 PM »
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And what do  the photos show from your point of view??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215885\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They show the change of contrast in the function of angle on a PVA panel
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tho_mas
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2008, 05:51:15 PM »
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They show the change of contrast in the function of angle on a PVA panel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ah, okay. Makes sense.
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2008, 06:15:41 PM »
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http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display
I multiplied monitor calibration chart from that page:
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm

21" IPS panel:



21" PVA panel:


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks czornyj...even the head on image shows color weirdness, color bars/panels, in the pva panel...can i ask, what monitors are these images on please?...
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tho_mas
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2008, 06:25:16 PM »
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thanks czornyj...even the head on image shows color weirdness, color bars/panels, in the pva panel...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215890\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
no. The fist image just shows that the display is not matched to the right gamma curve.
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2008, 06:33:26 PM »
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no. The fist image just shows that the display is not matched to the right gamma curve.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

alright, I don't understand...what are you showing here?...I mean it seems like a point about ips and pva panels where the pva panel is not showing smooth gradations head on or at an angle...is this wrong?...

I mean you say they show change of contrast in function of angle on the pva...i see it...but I guess i don't understand your point...if the pva monitor had a correct gamma curve would it be as smooth as the ips example?...

also, didn't know about the thinkpad panels...thanks for the link...
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tho_mas
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2008, 06:57:23 PM »
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alright, I don't understand...what are you showing here?...I mean it seems like a point about ips and pva panels where the pva panel is not showing smooth gradations head on or at an angle...is this wrong?...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215893\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think in the straight picture you should not see any color effects or something if the display is calibrated good enough.
The next question is how much of these effects you will see in a side angle.
I don't know. I don't look that much on test charts. After calibration I check some black to white gradtions in Photoshop just to see if there is any issue with calibration curve and that's it. I see some issues on S-PVA but I do see others on IPS. There is no display that is perfect.
Above all: we are talking about deviations in a range that are smaller as if you look at the picture on the display with the left or the right eye. Much more essential ist that the calibration is good - and it is never good out of the box - and the viewing conditions are as good as possible. After all these things ... you can think about a certain color shift in a viewing angle you never would sit in front of the display. I have no clients next beside me. So I sit in the middle of the display and that's fine.
When I decided to buy a new display I worried much about these things, too. So I understand what it is all about for you. But I asked some experienced people and none of them - none! - said take IPS or take S-PVA. They always were talking about a particular display with a particular panel and particular issues. You can buy a CG221... do you think it's "perfect"? Far from it. You have to get used to the details this one is doing maybe not as good as a certain other panel. But the other panel is better in something else. And than... the price. If I would invest around €1.000 I would of course take the display with hardware calibration. Either way if it is IPS or S-PVA. That's how I see things.
But I know this make things not that much easier for you ... sorry ;-)
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2008, 07:14:14 PM »
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I think in the straight picture you should not see any color effects or something if the display is calibrated good enough.
The next question is how much of these effects you will see in a side angle.
I don't know. I don't look that much on test charts. After calibration I check some black to white gradtions in Photoshop just to see if there is any issue with calibration curve and that's it. I see some issues on S-PVA but I do see others on IPS. There is no display that is perfect.
Above all: we are talking about deviations in a range that are smaller as if you look at the picture on the display with the left or the right eye. Much more essential ist that the calibration is good - and it is never good out of the box - and the viewing conditions are as good as possible. After all these things ... you can think about a certain color shift in a viewing angle you never would sit in front of the display. I have no clients next beside me. So I sit in the middle of the display and that's fine.
When I decided to buy a new display I worried much about these things, too. So I understand what it is all about for you. But I asked some experienced people and none of them - none! - said take IPS or take S-PVA. They always were talking about a particular display with a particular panel and particular issues. You can buy a CG221... do you think it's "perfect"? Far from it. You have to get used to the details this one is doing maybe not as good as a certain other panel. But the other panel is better in something else. And than... the price. If I would invest around €1.000 I would of course take the display with hardware calibration. Either way if it is IPS or S-PVA. That's how I see things.
But I know this make things not that much easier for you ... sorry ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks tho_mas
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tho_mas
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« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2008, 07:18:16 PM »
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thanks tho_mas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
De rien. Bon courage!
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mbalensiefer
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2008, 12:20:54 AM »
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Michael,

This is difficult to answer for several reasons.  One is , that this is really non-disclosure information. Eizo does have a LED backlit on the slate for mid 2009. I predict it will be somewhat expensive, but it is impossible to tell now. I make this prediction because of what we know about LED now. Short lifespan, not in volume production, and the blue channel is the first to go, leaving a significant gamut shift.

So, I am assuming Eizo will get a low production backlight system and will fix the problems- and give our usual good warranty. But as a whole, I am not really too excited about LED. IT will be the backlight source for all LCD’s sometime, but there are some problems to fix. You will see it in TV and consumer before it is in high end graphics displays. The unit we have will be a 24”. I will release another 24 in Jan. It will not be a significant upgrade the one we have now except for one feature that I cannot discuss. Let’s say this will be most important if you are a motion picture professional.

If this goes any further, I would need to know specific info (what size you want, what you applications you use).  Or, drop me a call if you have a minute.


Thanks!
Tom

Tom Gadbois
Color Graphics Specialist
Eizo Nanao Technologies, Inc.

Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:27 PM
To: Gadbois, Thomas
Subject:
 

Hello!

 I am about to purchase an Eizo monitor, but would like to know when Eizo next has their new upgrade cycle...specifically, the new LED displays currently on the market do not calibrate well with current calibration devices, so I would need to wait until both monitor and calibrator are upgraded.
 

 Does Eizo have plans to use LEDs soon?

Thank you!
Mike B
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