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Author Topic: backup for digital back  (Read 13178 times)
woof75
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« on: August 04, 2008, 03:22:22 PM »
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I have a P21 back and I do have a spare Mamiya body but I don't want to spend out on a spare back so I was thinking of getting a 5D as a backup camera. I remembered a review of Michaels saying he thought the 40D was as good as the 5D and it seems the 450D is as good as the 40D and therefore also the 5D, with regards to IQ that is. Maybe the 450D is the perfect if a little unexpected, backup camera? Am I missing something or can I get away with saving a bunch of cashola?
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 03:39:39 PM »
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I cannot speak to the 450 or 40 but I can say that the 5D is a tremendous value and is my go to body for anything I can't shoot medium format or film. As to the other bodies, I just do not like squinting through those sub full frame viewfinders.

And as far as the 'next' model 5D people are speculating about... Well I could be very happy to shoot with the current 5D for some time to come.
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Ian L. Sitren
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woof75
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 03:47:16 PM »
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I cannot speak to the 450 or 40 but I can say that the 5D is a tremendous value and is my go to body for anything I can't shoot medium format or film. As to the other bodies, I just do not like squinting through those sub full frame viewfinders.

And as far as the 'next' model 5D people are speculating about... Well I could be very happy to shoot with the current 5D for some time to come.
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Yes, I really like the 5D, I've rented it before but I have never used the 40D or 450D and I do tend to trust michael's reviews. Although it may not stand up to everyday use, just for a backup, matched with the 17-40mm F4 zoom it could be a good and cheap solution rather than buying another expensive back?
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Juanito
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2008, 03:52:33 PM »
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I've been using the 5D ever since it came out. It's one of the best cameras ever made. If you're shooting MFDB, you don't want to go with a 1.5 cropped sensor like in the 40D if you need to pull it out of the bag as a backup. Stick with a full-frame sensor like the 5D or the 1Ds. For the money though, the 5D is king. I've beat the hell out of mine and used it for all kinds of shoots. It's what I use as a backup although, for a big enough shoot, I'd probably rent another back just to be safe.

John
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woof75
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 05:50:41 PM »
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I've been using the 5D ever since it came out. It's one of the best cameras ever made. If you're shooting MFDB, you don't want to go with a 1.5 cropped sensor like in the 40D if you need to pull it out of the bag as a backup. Stick with a full-frame sensor like the 5D or the 1Ds. For the money though, the 5D is king. I've beat the hell out of mine and used it for all kinds of shoots. It's what I use as a backup although, for a big enough shoot, I'd probably rent another back just to be safe.

John
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Why wouldn't you use a cropped sensor?
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Ray
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 06:16:29 PM »
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Why wouldn't you use a cropped sensor?
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The difference in sensor size between the 450D and the 5D is greater than the difference in sensor size between the 5D and the P21.

If you are using a P21 because of some perceived benefit in image quality attributable to its larger sensor (compared with 35mm), then wouldn't you be more comfortable using a 5D as a back-up? Better still, a 'hot rod' 5D with AA filter removed   .
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 06:46:04 PM »
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I've been using the 5D ever since it came out. It's one of the best cameras ever made. If you're shooting MFDB, you don't want to go with a 1.5 cropped sensor like in the 40D if you need to pull it out of the bag as a backup. Stick with a full-frame sensor like the 5D or the 1Ds. For the money though, the 5D is king. I've beat the hell out of mine and used it for all kinds of shoots. It's what I use as a backup although, for a big enough shoot, I'd probably rent another back just to be safe.

John
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+1
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Juanito
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2008, 07:16:37 PM »
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Why wouldn't you use a cropped sensor?
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Think of it this way. Let's say you're shooting a subject with an 80mm lens on MF system with a 1.1 crop. You're ten feet away and you get a nice upper body shot.

If your MF system goes down and you now have to pull out your 5D, you'll probably have to stand about 15 feet away with your 85mm to get a similar shot.

On the other hand, if you have a 40D, you'll have to stand about 20 feet away to get the same shot with an 85mm. (I made these distances up. Perhaps someone can jump in with the actual differences.)

Of course, as you get farther away, your perspective changes which changes the look of your shot. Your other option is to shoot with a wider lens, but that also changes the look of shot. Since the 5D sensor size is closest to MFDB, you'll have the least amount of change if you need to switch from one to the other. Since you're using the small format as a backup, I'd think you'd want to minimize the difference between formats. Hence the 5D.

John
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jimgolden
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 07:41:00 PM »
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PLUS - used 5D's going for $1200USD in my area...I think a new one is only $1899...I still dont like squinting thru it's little viewfinder tho! MF spoil ya for good...
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Ray
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 08:59:10 PM »
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Your other option is to shoot with a wider lens, but that also changes the look of shot.
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It shouldn't, as long as you can get the equivalent DoF. One advantage of these miniature, cropped formats like the 450D is that you can use good value, standard lenses, such as the 50/1.8 or 50/1.4, as portrait lenses.

From the same position, a 50/1.4 at F1.4 on the 450D should give you the same look as an 80mm lens on the 5D at F2.25 and a 120mm lens at F3.5 on the P21.

However, I'd be doubtful that the 50/1.4 at full aperture would be sharp enough with such a high resolving sensor as that of the 450D. A lens like the 85/1.2 at F2.25 on the 5D should give more satisfying results, I would deduce, although I've never made the comparison.
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 09:04:31 PM »
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Think of it this way. Let's say you're shooting a subject with an 80mm lens on MF system with a 1.1 crop. You're ten feet away and you get a nice upper body shot.

If your MF system goes down and you now have to pull out your 5D, you'll probably have to stand about 15 feet away with your 85mm to get a similar shot.

On the other hand, if you have a 40D, you'll have to stand about 20 feet away to get the same shot with an 85mm. (I made these distances up. Perhaps someone can jump in with the actual differences.)

Of course, as you get farther away, your perspective changes which changes the look of your shot. Your other option is to shoot with a wider lens, but that also changes the look of shot. Since the 5D sensor size is closest to MFDB, you'll have the least amount of change if you need to switch from one to the other. Since you're using the small format as a backup, I'd think you'd want to minimize the difference between formats. Hence the 5D.

John
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Here's something not everyone gets, if you're 10 feet away from your subject, it doesn't matter what lens you use the perspective is the same.  A wider lens will give you more background, a longer lens less.  10 feet is 10 feet no matter what back, lens etc you use.  A 39 mgp back will give you greater resolution, a 16 mgp sensor less.  Not to jinx myself but for 5 years I've shot with only one MF back (primarily studio) and haven't lost a shot to equipment.  I have a Mk2 that I guess would be my backup but luckily I haven't had to use it in that capacity.  Jim
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woof75
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 09:20:39 PM »
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anyone got a sensible answer?
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Ray
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 09:27:45 PM »
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Here's something not everyone gets, if you're 10 feet away from your subject, it doesn't matter what lens you use the perspective is the same.  A wider lens will give you more background, a longer lens less.  10 feet is 10 feet no matter what back, lens etc you use.  A 39 mgp back will give you greater resolution, a 16 mgp sensor less.  Not to jinx myself but for 5 years I've shot with only one MF back (primarily studio) and haven't lost a shot to equipment.  I have a Mk2 that I guess would be my backup but luckily I haven't had to use it in that capacity.  Jim
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That's all true, but the missing ingredient is DoF. In order to get the required field-of-view from a particular perspective (position), it's necessary to use a different focal length of lens in proportion to format size.

Having done that, we then have to adjust the f stop number to get the same DoF.
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 10:10:34 PM »
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My opinion on a backup for a MF back would be another MF back.  The DSLR's, for me, do not deliver the same quality of image.  Jim
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BJL
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 10:16:28 PM »
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Let's say you're shooting a subject with an 80mm lens on MF system with a 1.1 crop. You're ten feet away and you get a nice upper body shot.

If your MF system goes down and you now have to pull out your 5D, you'll probably have to stand about 15 feet away with your 85mm to get a similar shot.

On the other hand, if you have a 40D, you'll have to stand about 20 feet away to get the same shot with an 85mm. (I made these distances up. Perhaps someone can jump in with the actual differences.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
One could instead work at the same distance and get the same FOV and perspective by using appropriately shorter focal lengths; in fact that is probably what most photographers would do: about 50mm with a 5D,  about 35mm with a 40D.

For equal minimum DOF options, one would have to go from an 80/2.8 to a 50/2 (or faster) to a 35/1.4.
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TMARK
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2008, 11:12:28 PM »
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I'd say a 5D would be better simply for the chip size.  Before I owned an MFDB I rented and used my 1ds2 as backup.  To be honest, the only people who notice the difference in files are the retouchers, and you of course.  I find the 5D under lights to be almost indistinguishable from the 1ds2, so a 5D will work fine.

For some perspective, I used to do all my digital shooting on a D2x/D200 combo.  Last I checked the big CMYK web presses haven't increased in quality since then. So I think a 40D or whatever should be fine as well.

I have a 5D as backup as well as a propack of Portra 160 NC and a few backs.
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Ray
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 12:01:43 AM »
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Of course, there's another missing element to all this. We're all offering Woof75 advice, but we don't know what Canon lenses he owns.

If we assume that Woof75 does not want to spend the money on a second P21 purely for back-up purposes, and is looking at a cheaper alternative, then surely any decision he makes will be influenced by the Canon lenses he already owns.
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pindman
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 12:56:27 AM »
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Just got a crzay (and inexpensive) idea.  How bout a very inexpensive film back and some (cough cough) film?  Could serve in a pinch.  Might eventually go out of date, but as a back up it's cheap insurance.  Just a thougt.

Paul
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Ray
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 01:29:50 AM »
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Just got a crzay (and inexpensive) idea.  How bout a very inexpensive film back and some (cough cough) film?  Could serve in a pinch.  Might eventually go out of date, but as a back up it's cheap insurance.  Just a thougt.

Paul
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Now, let's be sensible. Film needs a high quality scanner. Does Woof75 possess one?

Michael's own tests have demonstrated that the 1Ds with a slightly lower pixel count than the 5D and definitely higher noise at high ISO than the 5D, is on a par with 6x7cm Velvia film.
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 01:42:21 AM »
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I have done a few shots side by side : Canon 1Ds Mark III and Hasseblad H1+ P45 and the quality is not that far
I find the Canon a perfect camera as  second MF body
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