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Author Topic: backup for digital back  (Read 12798 times)
dustblue
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 04:15:11 AM »
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Hi there,

I use a 450D for editorial works these days, cause I'm still waiting for a D800 or D3x to come out, or maybe just go get a D700 if I can't wait.

About myself, I shoot big assignments with rollei6008II with a dslr as digital polaroid; and for small deals I just use a dslr. I find that mostly a 450D is enough for editorial works, perfect for half page or smaller, and good enough for Full Page, if you take it really careful, I mean shoot carefully to prevent cropping too much in the post; and retouching carefully to prevent lose the details.

The positive part of using a 450d for assingments is that it's light and small, and cost less than perhaps any other choices, and good IQ most of the time, I mean good enough for the clients.
The negative part is that you just don't crop, if you want a kind of composition, shoot it that way, don't wait to crop in the post, cause it loose IQ a lot. If you crop half size of the original, it will be totally unpleasant to enlarge it to magazine full page.

I'll recomend buying a FF body anyway, since you use p21 as your primary gear. dont think about aps-c sized bodys. My experience is that a 450D is not that good as a 5D, especially when you enlarge to a size like double page magazine. In that case the 450d just doesn't work.
 
oh I forgot to mention, that when your clients see you 450d in your hand and ask if a 5d is good enough as a birthday present for his girlfriend, you are f***d.




 
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I have a P21 back and I do have a spare Mamiya body but I don't want to spend out on a spare back so I was thinking of getting a 5D as a backup camera. I remembered a review of Michaels saying he thought the 40D was as good as the 5D and it seems the 450D is as good as the 40D and therefore also the 5D, with regards to IQ that is. Maybe the 450D is the perfect if a little unexpected, backup camera? Am I missing something or can I get away with saving a bunch of cashola?
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eronald
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 04:59:16 AM »
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I have done a few shots side by side : Canon 1Ds Mark III and Hasseblad H1+ P45 and the quality is not that far
I find the Canon a perfect camera as  second MF body
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213127\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Me too. Before you go into post the difference is negligible. But during shooting there sure is a difference. And the winnnnnnnaaaaaaaaaah is ....

As regards the 450D, I wonder how it fares with the hi-end Canon lenses? Has anyone ever put an 85/1.2 on it ?
 
Edmund
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 05:01:04 AM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
woof75
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 05:45:36 AM »
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I only shoot one focal length, 28m so I just buy a 20mm f2.8 prime with the camera and I shoot F11 so DOF and angle of view and distance to model are irrelevant. I hate shooting film so thats not an option. Clients don't care what camera I use one bit. The shooting experience of any canon dslr is going to be more pleasant than a mamiya 645afd so thats not important. I did shoot a 5d recently and it was good enough. The big question is, is the 40D, as michael says, as good as the 5d and, is the 450D as good as the 40D when you?
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woof75
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 07:38:35 AM »
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I didn't realise that Michael had already done a field report of the camera, I found this statement to be pretty much sum it up: (XSi is same as 450D)

"Having said that, I find little to fault and much to like in the XSi's files. When working on them in LR while on the road in Newfoundland, alongside files from the 1Ds MKIII, the only way that I could tell them apart was by looking at the EXIF data and file size. Subsequently, in prints up to 13X19" there was little to choose between them other than the ability to crop and not lose too much resolution when working with the 1Ds MKIIIs' larger files."
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 10:03:56 AM »
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You guys got me curious about the 450; but now I see it uses SD cards and not CF cards. Total deal killer for me. I would not want to buy and have on hand and juggle a whole new group of cards for just a back up camera.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 10:05:17 AM by SecondFocus » Logged

Ian L. Sitren
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2008, 10:04:57 AM »
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You guys got me curious about the 450; but now I see it uses SD cards and not CF cards. Total deal killer for me. I would not want to buy and have to have on hand an juggle a whole new group of cards for just a back up camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There cheap as chips now you know.
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TMARK
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2008, 10:06:25 AM »
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You guys got me curious about the 450; but now I see it uses SD cards and not CF cards. Total deal killer for me. I would not want to buy and have to have on hand an juggle a whole new group of cards for just a back up camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, SD cards are like $17.99 for 2 gigs, $25.00 for 4 gigs, so it shouldn't be a deal breaker.

The viewfinder, now that's a deal breaker.
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2008, 10:07:58 AM »
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Cost of the SD cards is not the issue. There you are on a shoot, your main system goes down, you have to grab a back up and then go searching in your gear for a different set of entirely different type of cards. Not for me...
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Ian L. Sitren
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woof75
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2008, 10:10:48 AM »
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Well, SD cards are like $17.99 for 2 gigs, $25.00 for 4 gigs, so it shouldn't be a deal breaker.

The viewfinder, now that's a deal breaker.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yea, I hear it's better than previous models but not as good as say the 5d. But for a backup camera....
It's funny a 1ds mark 1 used to be unquestionably thought of as being a great camera for professional use for 8000 and now we have something which seems like it's at least the same IQ for only 700 dollars. Thats pretty impressive.
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TMARK
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2008, 10:25:09 AM »
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yea, I hear it's better than previous models but not as good as say the 5d. But for a backup camera....
It's funny a 1ds mark 1 used to be unquestionably thought of as being a great camera for professional use for 8000 and now we have something which seems like it's at least the same IQ for only 700 dollars. Thats pretty impressive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The 1ds is a real camera. Real viewfinder.  No shutter lag.  Substantial.
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eronald
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2008, 10:38:13 AM »
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The 1ds is a real camera. Real viewfinder.  No shutter lag.  Substantial.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think the 1Ds has been outdone yet. Nice look to the files. As long as you treat it as a studio camera, I'd call it  a prime unit, not a backup.

Of course, it's obvious that we'll have a $700 5D clone soon. Price divides about 1/2 every 2 years.

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 10:39:31 AM by eronald » Logged

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woof75
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2008, 11:27:53 AM »
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I don't think the 1Ds has been outdone yet. Nice look to the files. As long as you treat it as a studio camera, I'd call it  a prime unit, not a backup.

Of course, it's obvious that we'll have a $700 5D clone soon. Price divides about 1/2 every 2 years.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213199\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey, don't you believe michael when he says that he can't distinguish between the 1ds mark 3 and the 450D/XSi?
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woof75
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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2008, 11:30:59 AM »
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The 1ds is a real camera. Real viewfinder.  No shutter lag.  Substantial.
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I've never found shutter lag to be a problem on a dslr. Doesn't image quality count for something though? Just because a company tells you a camera is pro or amateur doesn't mean it's so.
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Juanito
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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2008, 11:50:37 AM »
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It shouldn't, as long as you can get the equivalent DoF. One advantage of these miniature, cropped formats like the 450D is that you can use good value, standard lenses, such as the 50/1.8 or 50/1.4, as portrait lenses.

From the same position, a 50/1.4 at F1.4 on the 450D should give you the same look as an 80mm lens on the 5D at F2.25 and a 120mm lens at F3.5 on the P21.
It may give you the same depth of field, but it's not the same shot. The wider lenses are going to give you more background whether you like it or not.

The other thing that's important is that the longer lenses compress the scene more than the shorter lenses. That's important if you're photographing people. A 50mm in close to the subject is going to stretch noses and body parts regardless of what camera it's on. One of the big advantages to larger formats is that you can use longer lenses in closer - which is more flattering to the subject. That, to me, is the essence of "the look" of medium format that people talk about.

John
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TMARK
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2008, 12:54:41 PM »
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I've never found shutter lag to be a problem on a dslr. Doesn't image quality count for something though? Just because a company tells you a camera is pro or amateur doesn't mean it's so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213214\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are uncomfortable with Canon or any manufacturer telling you how your equipment can be used, just think of it this way:  Pro:  well built, feature rich;  Amateur:  badly built, feature poor.

I have a 5D.  I've shot a shit load of work with it.  I've made a pant-load of money with it.  It's still an amateur camera, even though it gets "pro" results.  That's not Canon telling me anything about the 5D's intended use as Pro or Not. Its a piece of shit camera with a good chip and a good AF system. I was willing to live with that as a back up to a real camera, like an RZ or a 1ds2, because the IQ is so good.  

I feel differently now.  I'm sick of crappy cameras. I'm sick of shutter lag, huge tolerances, crappy viewfinders, mirror slap, etc.  The main requirement I have of any camera is that I don't have to fight it to get an image.  You don't have to fight the 5D, but it does not leave you with a warm and fuzzy while you are shooting.  In fact, you don't think you have anything usable because the LCD sucks so bad (better than the Phase + backs, but the blinking highlight warning is only visable on a thumbnail of the image that also shows the retarded histogram which is taken from teh crappy JPEG preview, so you really have no idea what's going on.)  The files are a little thin as well and blow highlights right quick.

One advantage the 5D has over the 450 is that it has a rear command dial, while I think the 450 has only the index finger command dial.  I could be wrong, but taht's what I remember.
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klane
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2008, 01:08:31 PM »
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I owned a 5D for a while and I loved it, Ill also agree with a few of your points about the lcd previews and the histogram/highlight warning-it's off.  

The 1 series cameras are just built so much better though, just find a babied 1ds suck it up and pay the extra couple hundred bucks. It's worth the piece of mind and it's built like a tank.

The viewfinder on the rebel cameras SUCK my friend has an xt and it gives me a headache to look through it, its much worse than the 30d/40d which are not that bad really. Besides, do you really want to walk into a shoot  with plastic bodied silver camera that the clients uncle owns? Just get the 1Ds and don't sweat it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 01:09:20 PM by klane » Logged
woof75
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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2008, 01:52:22 PM »
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Clients dont care what camera I use. I used to shoot the 1ds mark 2 which was a lovely camera to use compared to the 5d but I dont shoot for the pleasure of shooting, I do it to create images and it's the images I care about. For this (i.e. IQ) I found the 5D to be a better camera than the 1ds mark 2 and if I can get something thats as good as a 5D and hence better than a 1ds for 1000 dollars I'll do that.
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BJL
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2008, 02:28:15 PM »
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It may give you the same depth of field, but it's not the same shot. The wider lenses are going to give you more background whether you like it or not.
...longer lenses compress the scene more than the shorter lenses ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213216\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No. FOV and perspective ("compression of the scene") are only tied to a particular focal length when you work with the same format, not when comparing different formats. Adjusting the focal length in proportion to the format size gives the same field of view, and within that FOV, equal subject distance gives the same perspective relationships.

Also, with equal effective aperture diameter (focal length divided by aperture ratio) you get the same OOF effects(*) in every part of the scene. So same DOF, some degree of background blurring, etc.

* Not exactly, but close enough when subject distance is considerably greater than focal length, as in this example.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 02:34:23 PM by BJL » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2008, 02:53:42 PM »
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Clients dont care what camera I use. I used to shoot the 1ds mark 2 which was a lovely camera to use compared to the 5d but I dont shoot for the pleasure of shooting, I do it to create images and it's the images I care about. For this (i.e. IQ) I found the 5D to be a better camera than the 1ds mark 2 and if I can get something thats as good as a 5D and hence better than a 1ds for 1000 dollars I'll do that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd still shoot film as a backup.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 04:49:48 PM by TMARK » Logged
woof75
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« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2008, 04:25:47 PM »
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It seems you know what to do, why did you post? 

Maybe my 5D has been broken all these years but I got better images out of the 1ds2.  Thicker, more DR.  Maybe you had a bad ds2, maybe I had a really good one.  Maybe its the fact that I felt emotionally connected to that camera because of how it feels in my hands, even its shutter sound is, what, inspiring?

If you really just care about IQ run some film through that Mamiya.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just seems that where IQ is concerned, which is my primary concern for a back up camera that will get me through the day if my phase went down, the Xsi is as good as or better than the 5D. I haven't heard anything to make me question that. I posted to see if anyone had anything to say to make me question that. I don't work with film. (long boring reasons why)
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