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Author Topic: Paper info for competition please  (Read 4057 times)
uaiomex
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« on: August 13, 2008, 12:01:56 AM »
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I will be printing a very small body of work in 10 days with an Epson 7600 with standard inks. I just did some tests with a sample package of Harman FB AL using Harman ICC in PS for color and QTR for B&W. It's the paper/softwares with the less gloss diferential I've seen. I particulary found Ilford ICC right on the money. Beautiful!.
With QTR I just went by intuition and used: Media type: Premium Luster and a blend of 20 for EEM Sepia and 80 for EEM CoolSe. Slightly warm. Loved the results.
So far so good. As said before, this paper is very nice but with the issue of being too glossy to look like traditional darkroom fiber paper. Actually it looks like a mixture of fiber and rc papers to me.
I read that Ilford Gold Fibre Silk is not as glossy. It seems to be the favorite of many. Only down thing is, according to some, it shows a bit more gloss diferential than H-FbAl.

So for those that have experimented with both papers: Comments and preferences, please. Really a difference?

Harman FbAl seems to be 100% free of being scratched or marred while being printed with the Epsons, not so GoldfibreSilk or so I read. Comments?


Also I found that Ilford site only has for download an ICC for this paper in sheet form, couldn't find it for roll wide format. Is sheet form different from roll?

And finally, although price is of not much importance (for this time), Would you be biased to this paper because the considerable savings?

Thanks so much in advance.
Eduardo
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Josh-H
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2008, 12:49:43 AM »
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I will be printing a very small body of work in 10 days with an Epson 7600 with standard inks. I just did some tests with a sample package of Harman FB AL using Harman ICC in PS for color and QTR for B&W. It's the paper/softwares with the less gloss diferential I've seen. I particulary found Ilford ICC right on the money. Beautiful!.
With QTR I just went by intuition and used: Media type: Premium Luster and a blend of 20 for EEM Sepia and 80 for EEM CoolSe. Slightly warm. Loved the results.
So far so good. As said before, this paper is very nice but with the issue of being too glossy to look like traditional darkroom fiber paper. Actually it looks like a mixture of fiber and rc papers to me.
I read that Ilford Gold Fibre Silk is not as glossy. It seems to be the favorite of many. Only down thing is, according to some, it shows a bit more gloss diferential than H-FbAl.

So for those that have experimented with both papers: Comments and preferences, please. Really a difference?

Harman FbAl seems to be 100% free of being scratched or marred while being printed with the Epsons, not so GoldfibreSilk or so I read. Comments?
Also I found that Ilford site only has for download an ICC for this paper in sheet form, couldn't find it for roll wide format. Is sheet form different from roll?

And finally, although price is of not much importance (for this time), Would you be biased to this paper because the considerable savings?

Thanks so much in advance.
Eduardo
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Michael has an excellent piece on the main Luminous Landscape site titled 'Battle of the Baryta's' covering just these comparisons.

In my own experience I have used all three. I find the Harman Glass FB AL to blue for my taste - although initially I did like the high gloss finish. Its a very 'cool' paper.

I much prefer the Ilford GFS and the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta - the Hanny is the most neutral, but the Ilford has a lovely warmth. I probably use ilford GFS 80% of the time, and the other 20% is the Hanny Baryta - but its image dependant. Depends on your penchant for warm, neutral or cool prints.

All three are very nice papers - just pick your poison based on your preference for cool, neutral or warm as these are really the major differences. The Harman is the most glossy, the Hanny has the most stipple, but all three produce great prints.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 12:52:31 AM by Josh-H » Logged

POAH
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 07:57:46 AM »
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hahnemhule fine art baryta I recon has the surface you want.  its not too shiny but still has all the colour and D-max of gloss paper.  I used it to reprint some of my mums old B&Ws circa 1950's and they came out a treat.
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uaiomex
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2008, 07:42:42 PM »
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Thanks for your response.  (Thanks to Josh too).

I'll make some tests on Hahne if I find a small sample package. The same for IGFS
Since I can't see any differentail of gloss with Harman FbAl printed with a 7600, it will become my reference paper for now. I live where I have to order online for most anything related to professional photography. (thank God for UPS, Fedex, etc and for the Internet)

I understand all these new papers were formulated mainly for the K3 printers. I even read somewhere, that with K2 there was no way to eliminate GD. so, I should consider myself lucky.

So, is there anyone (with comments) else printing with an Epson 7600 and baryta papers? QTR?

Thanks again.
Eduardo


Quote
hahnemhule fine art baryta I recon has the surface you want.  its not too shiny but still has all the colour and D-max of gloss paper.  I used it to reprint some of my mums old B&Ws circa 1950's and they came out a treat.
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mmurph
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 09:52:58 AM »
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I standardized on the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta.  

I liked the Epson Exhibition Fiber the best, but no rolls there, only sheets.  They are fairly similar papers. Both have some texture.  

All of these papers are somewhat fragile. They scratch easily and show marks, etc.  Plan on spraying them, which will solve any gloss differential problems.     I printed with all of them on the 7600 with no problem.

The Ilford was too warm for me. The Hahnemuhle and especially the Epson are very neutral.  The only advantage to the Ilford to me was the price. But the Hahnemuhle in roll was not much more than the Ilford, $123 vs. $110 for a 24" x 39' roll.


All great papers really - we are very lucky to have them!

Best,
Michael
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 09:53:45 AM by mmurph » Logged
colinm
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 10:20:43 AM »
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A tip on the Harman: Don't judge glossiness from a fresh print.

When I initially tried it, I was shocked by the over-the-top glossiness of a fresh print (and the damage-prone surface). Not unlike darkroom paper, though, the Harman has a "dry down" after which it becomes much less glossy and much more durable.

Fully dried Harman is nearly a dead ringer for Ilford FB Gloss in texture and gloss—the silver gelatin paper is actually ever-so-slightly glossier. They do differ in color, with the darkroom paper being noticeably warmer, but I'd guess Harman's warmtone inkjet paper might match up favorably.

If you haven't looked at your Harman prints since you made them, go back and look them over again today.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 10:21:06 AM by colinm » Logged

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uaiomex
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 01:11:49 PM »
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Thanks Michael and Collin.

All people concour these papers are easy to scratch, especially when fresh.

I was looking back at my tests and noticed that I didn't mind the gloss that much. I thought it was perceptual. Good tip Mike.

I'm leaning now to Harman for this body of work. The cool paper with the slightly sepia-selenium I got in QTR is growing on me.
But I'd liike to hear some more experiences from you guys and gals.
Thanks
Eduardo

Quote
A tip on the Harman: Don't judge glossiness from a fresh print.

When I initially tried it, I was shocked by the over-the-top glossiness of a fresh print (and the damage-prone surface). Not unlike darkroom paper, though, the Harman has a "dry down" after which it becomes much less glossy and much more durable.

Fully dried Harman is nearly a dead ringer for Ilford FB Gloss in texture and gloss—the silver gelatin paper is actually ever-so-slightly glossier. They do differ in color, with the darkroom paper being noticeably warmer, but I'd guess Harman's warmtone inkjet paper might match up favorably.

If you haven't looked at your Harman prints since you made them, go back and look them over again today.
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« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 01:12:58 PM by uaiomex » Logged
JohnBrew
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 01:12:36 PM »
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I'm sold on the Harman because the D-max seems better, IMO. I used Hahnemuhle for years, but the Harman blows it away. I am trying the new Warmtone, but frankly when it runs out I'll go back to the regular gloss (for 8 1/2 x 11 only). I really don't see the "blue" others speak of. Yes, it's a tad cooler, but for me that's what makes it so similar to silver gelatin. The best thing? I'm no longer printing any matte papers, which was a necessity to hide all the deficiencies of the older gloss papers.
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uaiomex
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 01:24:33 PM »
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John:
I don't see any blueness either. I bet it will show to me next to the other baryta papers though.
Why will you not print on warmtone anymore? Someone said it reminded him of Agfa Potriga.
I think I'm ordering a sample pack. I wish all the other makers offer small packs of 5 sh. in letter size as Harman does. Cool Harman!
Thanks
Eduardo

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I'm sold on the Harman because the D-max seems better, IMO. I used Hahnemuhle for years, but the Harman blows it away. I am trying the new Warmtone, but frankly when it runs out I'll go back to the regular gloss (for 8 1/2 x 11 only). I really don't see the "blue" others speak of. Yes, it's a tad cooler, but for me that's what makes it so similar to silver gelatin. The best thing? I'm no longer printing any matte papers, which was a necessity to hide all the deficiencies of the older gloss papers.
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JohnBrew
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 01:52:11 PM »
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Eduardo, two reasons: 1) I mat my prints with bright white archival matts so if I mat one with the border showing there is some descrepency between the shades of color. If I mat to the border, then no problem. 2) I really prefer the look of the cooler paper. All that said however, and since I still have 40+ sheets of the Warmtone, I'll probably give it (and my mind!) more chances to work on my decision.
Regards,
John
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mmurph
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 08:19:51 PM »
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I used Hahnemuhle for years, but the Harman blows it away. I am trying the new Warmtone, but frankly when it runs out I'll go back to the regular gloss (for 8 1/2 x 11 only).

Which Hahnemuhle? The Fine Art Baryta is a new paper?

I have the Harman regular and warntone. Both are nice, but I have always preferred a cooler paper. No to the Agfa, yes to the Ilford Galerie back in my darkroom days - guess that was 1982?  

I tested 35+ papers last winter. Then I bought stocks of 6-7 for further testing. The Harman, Hahnemuhle, and Epson were 3 that I chose for more testing.  

The only matte that I still have is the Moab Entrada Bright White. Only because I have punched and scored portfolio pages from Moab (actually Lost Luggage.)  I still need to decide how to handle my portfolios.

We should also distinguish between B&W and Color.  For color I use the Epson Exhibition Fiber, Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, and Harman Glossy Fiber AI as my premium papers (really the Hahnemuhle though once the othwers are gone.)

I use Epson Premium Semi-Matte, Premium Luster, and Premium Semi-Gloss for proofing and everyday prints.

For B&W I also use the Innova Glossy Warmtone and the Harman Warmtone as well as the above papers. Goes well with the B&W inks I have with no toner.  The cool inks go too blue for me with magenta and cyan added.  I prefer no toner at all.

Plus the Entrada Bright White for portfolios, B&W and color, as mentioned.

Best,
Michael
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 12:56:20 PM by mmurph » Logged
uaiomex
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 10:15:38 PM »
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Michael, very interesting, thanks.
1988?   Oriental Seagull Fb Gloss, air dried. Loved that paper!

You say that you prefer the warmtone papers for BW in your present days. 25 years ago, you prefered neutral papers for B&W. Could you explain the reasons why you switched tastes?

It gets my curiosity, because usually we tried to emulate our time in the darkroom (we, old farts)
Well, at least, that is what got my excimentent when these new baryta papers started to pop up.
I know, digital photography is almost another entirely kind of art.

Regards

Eduardo

Ps. When you say Ilford warm tone, do you mean Gold Fibre Silk?



Quote
Which Hahnemuhle? The Fine Art Baryta is a new paper?

I have the Harman regular and warntone. Both are nice, but I have always preferred a cooler paper. No to the Agfa, yes to the Ilford Galerie back in my darkroom days - guess that was 1982? 

I tested 35+ papers last winter. Then I bought stocks of 6-7 for further testing. The Harman, Hahnemuhle, and Epson were 3 that I chose for more testing. 

The only matte that I still have is the Moab Entrada Bright White. Only because I have punched and scored portfolio pages from Moab (actually Lost Luggage.)  I still need to decide how to handle my portfolios.

We should also distinguish between B&W and Color.  For color I use the Epson Exhibition Fiber, Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, and Harman Glossy Fiber AI as my premium papers (really the Hahnemuhle though once the othwers are gone.)

I use Epson Premium Semi-Matte, Premium Luster, and Premium Semi-Gloss for proofing and everyday prints.

For B&W I also use the Ilford Glossy Warmtone and the Harman Warmtone as well as the above papers. Goes well with the B&W inks I have with no toner.  The cool inks go too blue for me with magenta and cyan added.  I prefer no toner at all.

Plus the Entrada Bright White for portfolios, B&W and color, as mentioned.

Best,
Michael
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JohnBrew
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 06:55:13 AM »
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Quote from: mmurph,Aug 14 2008, 09:19 PM
Which Hahnemuhle? The Fine Art Baryta is a new paper?


I used the Hahnemuhle William Turner for matte and Fine Art Pearl for glossy. I really liked the William Turner and wouldn't hesitate to use it again with the right image. I also used Moab Entrada for a while. It was fine, but the William Turner has more texture which I think looks better under glass.

I haven't tried the Fine Art Baryta and actually have no reason to.
Not all of us are trying for the same look and that's why there are so many choices. Different papers equal different styles and that's a great thing. I believe we are entering a golden age for inkjet printers and papers and all of us DIY photogs are benefitting like never before.
Happy printing.
John
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davidh4976
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 09:22:02 PM »
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Eduardo,

My notes from using an Epson R2400…

Harman FB AL using Harman ICC in PS for color is excellent; very low gloss differential. Harman FB AL using Epson ABW for BW is excellent. Use Gloss paper setting for BW and color.

Ilford Gold Fibre Silk is not as glossy as Harman FB AL, but its not a big difference; more gloss differential than Ilford Gold Fibre Silk; excellent results with Ilford ICC for color and Epson ABW for BW. Use Luster paper setting for BW and color.  In my opinion, it’s a bit too warm for most of my work, but some photos where the important subjects are warm colored can really benefit from this.

Epson Exibition is a bit too blue and too bright for my tastes.

I really like the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, too.  It has a texture that is the best at not showing fingerprints.  I actually tested fingerprint “resistance” for a project I did that would be handled by a variety of people.  For color, I found the Hahn profile to be a little bit off for neutral blacks, so I had a custom profile made by Digital Dog and it looks great.  Using Epson ABW for BW is excellent.  Use Luster paper setting for BW and color.

I’m experimenting with Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl.  So far, I’m not impressed with color using the Hahn profile.  I’ve just sent for a Digital Dog profile, and I hope to see better results.  The lack of OBAs on this paper has me intrigued.  I haven’t tried BW on it yet.

I only enter competitions at my local camera club.  The viewing is done with a light box that has good lighting from the top and from the bottom.  This really eliminates issues with gloss differential and glossiness for any of these papers.  Composition and solid printing techniques are much more important.  I win quite often just using Epson Luster.

My opinion is that if you are getting “beautiful” results with the Harman FB AL like you mentioned, stick with that.  You only have 8 days left to print!

Good luck,

David
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 03:43:43 PM by davidh4976 » Logged
BruceHouston
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2008, 09:35:06 PM »
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Eduardo,

My notes from using an Epson R2400…

Harman FB AL using Harman ICC in PS for color is excellent; very low gloss differential.
Harman FB AL using Epson ABW for color is excellent. Use Luster paper setting for BW and color.

Ilford Gold Fibre Silk is not as glossy as Harman FB AL, but its not a big difference; more gloss differential than Ilford Gold Fibre Silk; excellent results with Ilford ICC for color and Epson ABW for BW. Use Luster paper setting for BW and color.  In my opinion, it’s a bit too warm for most of my work, but some photos where the important subjects are warm colored can really benefit from this.

Epson Exibition is a bit too blue and too bright for my tastes.

I really like the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, too.  It has a texture that is the best at not showing fingerprints.  I actually tested fingerprint “resistance” for a project I did that would be handled by a variety of people.  For color, I found the Hahn profile to be a little bit off for neutral blacks, so I had a custom profile made by Digital Dog and it looks great.  Using Epson ABW for color is excellent.  Use Luster paper setting for BW and color.

I’m experimenting with Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl.  So far, I’m not impressed with color using the Hahn profile.  I’ve just sent for a Digital Dog profile, and I hope to see better results.  The lack of OBAs on this paper has me intrigued.  I haven’t tried BW on it yet.

I only enter competitions at my local camera club.  The viewing is done with a light box that has good lighting from the top and from the bottom.  This really eliminates issues with gloss differential and glossiness for any of these papers.  Composition and solid printing techniques are much more important.  I win quite often just using Epson Luster.

My opinion is that if you are getting “beautiful” results with the Harman FB AL like you mentioned, stick with that.  You only have 8 days left to print!

Good luck,

David
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David,

You lose me every time that you say "Epson ABW for color..."  "ABW" stands for "advanced black and white."  Could you possibly re-read your entire post and correct any errors that you find?  The information is interesting but seems to contain several "slip of the tongue" errors.

Thanks,
Bruce
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uaiomex
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2008, 02:06:22 AM »
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David: Excellent feedback Muchas gracias.
Yes, I find H-FbAl, H-ICC, 7600 just about totally absent of GD.
I did use Premium Luster  for media type in QTR. Same about GD but just a hint of bronzing. Not really to worry about ( I think).
Harman has oba's, but it seems that oba worries according to some, are overrated.
Harman it is!
Darling quote, David. Loved it.
Regards
Eduardo

Quote
My opinion is that if you are getting “beautiful” results with the Harman FB AL like you mentioned, stick with that.  You only have 8 days left to print!

Good luck,

David
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davidh4976
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2008, 05:42:10 AM »
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David,

You lose me every time that you say "Epson ABW for color..."  "ABW" stands for "advanced black and white."  Could you possibly re-read your entire post and correct any errors that you find?  The information is interesting but seems to contain several "slip of the tongue" errors.

Thanks,
Bruce
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Bruce,

Thanks for catching my typo.  You're right, I use Epson ABW (advanced black and white) for B&W not color.  I edited my entry to fix that.  That's what I get when typing past my normal bed time!

Since switching from a Epson 1280 a couple of years ago to the R2400, I have stopped using color profiles for BW.  The Epson ABW does a tremendously better job in producing BW without color casts.  That's been my experience on Epson papers and on about a dozen non-Epson papers for both matte and glossy.

Thanks,
David
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JohnBrew
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2008, 04:49:32 PM »
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David, interesting that you are using the Luster setting. I believe Luster is the default setting for Epson. Harman suggest the Glossy setting for their Gloss FB papers. I am following their recommendation but there may not be any actual difference between the two in printing.
Regards,
John
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davidh4976
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 03:45:49 PM »
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David, interesting that you are using the Luster setting. I believe Luster is the default setting for Epson. Harman suggest the Glossy setting for their Gloss FB papers. I am following their recommendation but there may not be any actual difference between the two in printing.
Regards,
John
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I checked my printing notes.  You're right...I used Gloss for the Harman.  I corrected my post.  I really, really need to refrain from posting after my bedtime!
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uaiomex
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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 02:56:43 PM »
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To all folks: Thanks a lot.
I ordered a 24" roll of Harman FbAl and a sample pack each of Hahn FAb, Illford GFs and Harman FbAl Warmtone. From Shades of Paper, a place I learned from here. I ordered saturday and just got an email from Fedex that they are shipping today.

I learned a few things here, that helped me to make my mind. Since I don't have much time to print, I decided to order the roll but I'm planning on runing some tests with the other papers.

Harman seems to me expensive, Ilford GFs and the Hahn FAb are way cheaper. If one or both work for me too, it will be a good year. because I'll be keeping my 7600 for some more years to come. Resale value sucks!. Mine never clogs. I don't print much (for such a pro machine), so my printer heads will most likely prevail well into the next decade. I've heard rumors that the new 900 series of Epsons will be very expensive.

Best
Eduardo Cervantes

Ps Harman will make my year too. I'm sure.  A lot less black ink switching!
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