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Author Topic: D700 bracketing  (Read 9486 times)
MichaelEzra
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« on: August 19, 2008, 08:36:08 AM »
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Just bought D700 as backup camera and trying to set bracketing to multiple frames, 3 F-stops apart. Yet, I cannot find a way to increase bracketing step over 1.0 F-stop. Is this the camera's limitation, or is there any other way?

THanks
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CJL
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 09:23:25 AM »
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I think you're limited to 1/3, 1/2, or 1-stop increments only.
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MichaelEzra
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2008, 09:30:42 AM »
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Thats what it seems, and is very strange, why.
Would be great to have this expanded in the eventual firmware update
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CJL
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2008, 10:01:19 AM »
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You could always shoot 9 frames one stop apart and throw away the ones you don't need...  
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MichaelEzra
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2008, 10:07:42 AM »
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thats a lot of frames wasted....
imaging if I am shooting panorama from 30 frames.
I have to shoot 9x30 frames to get HDR?
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 04:31:31 PM »
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How many stops of DR do you require?

Start with a CC30M filter (adds one stop) and ETTR (typically adds another stop), dial in one stop below that and shoot 3 bracketed shots at 1 stop EC (now you've added another stop) and you have about 12 stops of usable DR with a D700 and you just throw out the middle file from each sequence.

It is the biggest complaint I read about Nikon's bracketing though, and it would be nice if we could dial in 2 and 3 stops of EC.
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CJL
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 09:46:37 PM »
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... or shoot in Manual mode, and bracket manually?
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 10:05:57 PM »
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Start with a CC30M filter (adds one stop)
How did you arrive at that? For me it is only 1/2 EV.
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Gabor
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 01:05:01 AM »
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How did you arrive at that? For me it is only 1/2 EV.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216157\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I arrived at that by testing with and without the filter.  Perhaps my conclusions are flawed, perhaps it is different using a D300, and I may be mistaken because I'm actually using a CC40M filter.  Anyway, here's a scene I shot tonight:



and here's the RAW histograms and 100% crops:



Processed with NX.
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 10:33:01 AM »
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I arrived at that by testing with and without the filter.  Perhaps my conclusions are flawed, perhaps it is different using a D300, and I may be mistaken because I'm actually using a CC40M filter
Of course the CC40M has a stronger effect. However, it is still far from a full stop. It is difficult to determine the effect on the green channel because of the clipping, but it is clear, that the red and blue channels have lost about 1/3 stop. The gain in DR is the difference between the green and the red/blue reduction.

I have the Tiffan CC30M; its effect on the green channel is somewhat less than a full stop, while the red and blue suffer about half stop. The net result is rather less than half stop.

I don't have the transmission curve of the Tiffany filter, but I attach the graphs from B+W (they don't have a 30M). It shows, how much part of the blue and red spectrum as well is filtered. Add to this the fact, that the pixels are not dedicated to red, green and blue; "dominated" is closer to the truth. In other words, the combined effect is a mix.
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Gabor
Tony Beach
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 11:07:18 AM »
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Of course the CC40M has a stronger effect. However, it is still far from a full stop. It is difficult to determine the effect on the green channel because of the clipping, but it is clear, that the red and blue channels have lost about 1/3 stop. The gain in DR is the difference between the green and the red/blue reduction.

I have the Tiffan CC30M; its effect on the green channel is somewhat less than a full stop, while the red and blue suffer about half stop. The net result is rather less than half stop.

I don't have the transmission curve of the Tiffany filter, but I attach the graphs from B+W (they don't have a 30M). It shows, how much part of the blue and red spectrum as well is filtered. Add to this the fact, that the pixels are not dedicated to red, green and blue; "dominated" is closer to the truth. In other words, the combined effect is a mix.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216248\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well note that when I put the filter on I also increase the EV (that's the ETTR part); so the red and blue channels are still getting the same saturation levels).  The first stop is gained by increasing EV to achieve ETTR, and often that is a stop (depending on how the scene is metered) ; the second stop is gained by using the CC40M filter to lower the green channel and again raise the EV.  The price for attaining these two strops is longer exposure times.
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 01:28:39 PM »
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the second stop is gained by using the CC40M filter to lower the green channel and again raise the EV
Increasing the EV by one stop does not always lead to a gain by one stop. Think of an ND filter: you put on a 4x filter and increase the EV by two stops. How much is the gain in exposure?

The magenta filter reduces the effective exposure of not only the green but the red and blue pixels as well. Thus only the difference between the reductions counts as effective gain.

In the example above you increased the exposure by one stop using the filter. However, the red increased only by slightly less than half stop and the blue by "exactly" half stop. Thus the gain was about half stop. This is still considerable, as half stop is more than the differences are between cameras of the same sensor size and pixel count. In other words, using the filter can more than make up for the difference in DR between two cameras.
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Gabor
JeffKohn
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 02:20:31 PM »
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Just bought D700 as backup camera and trying to set bracketing to multiple frames, 3 F-stops apart. Yet, I cannot find a way to increase bracketing step over 1.0 F-stop. Is this the camera's limitation, or is there any other way?

THanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's a limitation of all Nikon DSLR's (at least, all that I've used including D70, D2x, and D300). Pretty lame if you ask me, they really should fix this as it should just be a firmware change.
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360NikonD300
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 08:15:16 PM »
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It's a limitation of all Nikon DSLR's (at least, all that I've used including D70, D2x, and D300). Pretty lame if you ask me, they really should fix this as it should just be a firmware change.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nikon users really have to speak up loudly and complain to Nikon about the +/- 1 EV limitation. My D70 let me go +/- 2 EV, but my D300 does not. This is insane. I can't imagine this being a major Firmware modification to change.

My preferred HDR shooting with my D70 was usually three shots at 0, +2, -2 EV. Now I have to shoot 5 images to get the same results.

There must be something we can do to get Nikon to listen. There are lots of complaints online.
I love my D300. I can't believe the D700 has the same bracketing limitations. Ridiculous. Have I stated how insane this is!?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 05:24:24 PM by 360NikonD300 » Logged
TMcCulley
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2008, 10:31:33 AM »
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Just bought D700 as backup camera and trying to set bracketing to multiple frames, 3 F-stops apart. Yet, I cannot find a way to increase bracketing step over 1.0 F-stop. Is this the camera's limitation, or is there any other way?

THanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have been rereading the manual to pick up anything I missed when I first got my D300.  I think you can accomplish what you want with a combination of bracketting and exposure compensation.

Tom

Followup
I have done some testing and all exposure compensation does is shift the bracketting range. Sorry I really thought this might help.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:25:40 AM by TMcCulley » Logged
JeffKohn
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 11:01:09 AM »
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Nikon users really have to speak up loudly and complain to Nikon about the +/- 1 EV limitation. My D70 let me go +/- 2 EV, but my D300 does not. This is insane. I can't imagine this being a major Firmware modification to change.

My preferred HDR shooting with my D70 was usually three shots at 0, +2, -2 EV. Now I have to shoot 5 images to get the same results.

There must be something we can do to get Nikon to listen. There are lots of complaints online.
I love my D300. I can't believe the D700 has the same bracketing limitations. Ridiculous. Have I stated how insane this is!?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I could have sworn the D70 was limited to 1-stop intervals as well but you're right, it can go 2 stops between brackets. My D2x is also limited to 1-stop intervals so it's not just the latest cameras. I guess Nikon felt that the ability to shoot up to 9 frames in a bracketing sequence was sufficient to limit to 1-stop intervals in the pro/prosumer cameras. But they need to realize that more and more people are using bracketing for HDR or other forms of exposure blending where 2-stop intervals are preferred.

This has to be a simple piece of firmware programming that controls this option, I don't know why they don't just remove this silly limitation.
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360NikonD300
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 02:16:02 PM »
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I could have sworn the D70 was limited to 1-stop intervals as well but you're right, it can go 2 stops between brackets. My D2x is also limited to 1-stop intervals so it's not just the latest cameras. I guess Nikon felt that the ability to shoot up to 9 frames in a bracketing sequence was sufficient to limit to 1-stop intervals in the pro/prosumer cameras. But they need to realize that more and more people are using bracketing for HDR or other forms of exposure blending where 2-stop intervals are preferred.

This has to be a simple piece of firmware programming that controls this option, I don't know why they don't just remove this silly limitation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I recently contacted Nikon and was told they have no plans to change the bracketing function. I find this rather shocking. I'm afraid they really won't do anything unless we yell loud enough!
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360NikonD300
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 02:18:40 PM »
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... or shoot in Manual mode, and bracket manually?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's not an option for me. Additionally handling to dial in exposures increases camera movement.
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