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Author Topic: My Z3100 Adventure  (Read 6795 times)
rdonson
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2008, 02:06:37 PM »
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What with 28 pages (89% of which are posts about problems) http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....&highlite=z3100

I can't say I'd ever purchase a Z3100 myself.

Edit, they do seem quite popular though...go figure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow.  If you go by complaints in public forums how do you feel about Microsoft Windows?
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
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scubastu
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2008, 02:25:36 PM »
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I'm one of those happy users of the Z3100ps.  I did have an issue with the APS Serial Number not working but that was just 1 day of waiting for the APS folks in Idaho to email me a new key. Printer was plugged into my network and pretty much has been working from day 1.  Stunning prints on the media my clients like, a bit slow when I do CAD plots but I knew that going in.  Had the star wheel and rollers replaced with no hassles from HP Canada.

YMMV.

S.
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neil snape
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2008, 02:52:41 PM »
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What with 28 pages (89% of which are posts about problems) http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....&highlite=z3100

I can't say I'd ever purchase a Z3100 myself.

Edit, they do seem quite popular though...go figure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Epson had been around for a long time before HP and Canon finally got their LFP pigment printers out there.
LL has become the defacto forum for the two underdogs. Hence the majority of posts are about questions on hardware, options, problems, tech support, finding your way.  

Just like any other forum , you'll have the majority of long posts only when there are problems.
For every one posting there are many times over the forum readers that don't post, never will as they have no problems.
I've been on the Epson wide format for many years, whereas they never had totally new launch into a market, there are a lot of questions, problems,  complaints, advice, everything you find here.

There are also many people helping others , as we do here.

I'm not so sure that 89% of the posts here are all about problems, certainly hope not.
I also hope that of the topics posted , users helped resolve the questions / problems.
I never rule out any equipment based on complaints on forums for whatever brand, but do read all I can, and reply when I might have something to add.
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dct123
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« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2008, 09:26:14 AM »
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I believe that most of the readers of this forum realize that a person is more likely
to post a negative rather than a positive comment. If someone is upset about the
malfunctioning of their equipment, they'll be understandably more motivated to
sound off on a forum. On the other hand, even if someone's really pleased with
the performance of their equipment, they'll most likely remain mute. It's just a fact
of human nature. And then there are also those who, rightly or wrongly, feel that
 some manufacturer has treated them badly and they become 'evangilists' of their
own cause...flaming that manufacturer every chance they get with numerous
negative posts. Both of these examples will skew any 'statistics' one might
glean from the posts here.

DC Tomick
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dkeyes
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2008, 05:05:17 PM »
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I've had my z3100 44" with the original rollers for 1 1/2 years now. After the initial upgrades to firmware and drivers, I've had no problems other than a connection issue. This issue was resolved with one phone call to tech support. I feel lucky that I've had no major problems to talk about after reading about all the Canon, Epson and HP issues over the years. Problems come with any tool using sophisticated technology. All these companies know this and should respond accordingly.

People come to these forums looking for answers to problems not to talk about how well their product is working, that's why I originally came to this forum. As several people have mentioned, there is no statistical evidence for any printers based on this forum. Having talked with many people who own Epson printers, I can't say Epsons track record is any better than Canon or HPs.

I've read about the z3100 on this forum since the first threads were created. Seeing as there are way more printers out now than when I first visited, I would have to say there are fewer HP complaints (per capita). Of course, this is all based on perception (and a little logic hopefully). Another thing to note, most, if not all, z3100 owners eventually post on this forum if they have problems. Epson and Canon have several forums to vent.

All I can add is, buy your printer, whatever you choose, from a vendor that will back you up and needs your repeat business. One that will put pressure on the manufacturer to solve your problem. Your on your own if you use the cheapest online vendor as many on this forum can attest to.
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marty m
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2008, 07:52:18 PM »
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Epson and Canon have several forums to vent.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218341\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
* Several of you have mentioned other forums for Epson.  Where?  If someone wanted to read the record on Epson, where are the forums?  Surely you aren't referring to Yahoo forums, since there is a Yahoo forum for HP as well.  But for a multitude of reasons, including ease of use, I suspect that most of us use this forum rather than Yahoo.

I'm not aware of any forum on Epson LF formats that is utilized more than this one.  Where is it?

* There are several different issues under discussion, and it would be helpful to separate them out:

(1)  Can this forum or any forum be used to quantitatively measure satisfaction with a product?

No.  Forums don't provide quantitative proof of overall owner satisfaction.  I was the original poster to make that point, as fairness demands nothing less.  

This thread also does not provide such a quantitative measurement.  Even if a dozen Z3100 owners pile on to say they love their printer (some do so to justify their purchase), that doesn't prove anything.  (I was also the person who noted that it would be more accurate to judge by the totality of all postings in this forum on the Z3100 and on HP than by only this thread.)

(2)  Forums are used to post problems and seek solutions, and to exchange general informaton, such as on use of papers.

That was my original point.  It is valid for a potential buyer to read all the postings, and make a tally as to how many problems and complaints have been posted with regards to Epson, Canon and HP.  That at least provides a basic measurement as to how many people are having problems.  

To put it simply, reading all the posts alerts you to red flags.

My original point, that no one has disputed, is that Epson has considerably fewer posts related to mechanical problems and software issues.  And Epson has very few posts that specifically complain about poor, unresponsive, or incompetent tech support.

HP has many by comparison.  And my other original point was that the postings about poor and unresponsive tech support keep coming.  HP has had over one year to clean up its act and improve its performance.  Judging my this forum, that has not yet been accomplished.  

(I can personally attest to the fact that HP has never solved the Vista issues that some Vista users suffer from.  Some do, some don't.  HP in Spain acknowledged the problems, even admitted that they can replicate them, but never solved them.  As far as I know, HP simply gave up and walked away from those users suffering from Vista problems.)

The degree to which the original poster in this thread was jerked around is simply astonishing.  All HP had to do was send him a couple of very cheap disposable parts by next day shipping to resolve the problem.  HP tech support was either too cheap, or too incompetent -- or both -- to even do that.

Honestly, how many Epson postings do you read with these kind of complaints?  

My original point was that Epson has a pretty good record in that regard on this forum.  The same can't be said for HP.

(3)  The third issue that is being mentioned here is one of FEATURES.  

This is a separate issue.  I believe we can all agree that HP has the best set of features of any comparably priced large format printer on the market.  Epson, by contrast, does not offer a similar set of features such as the spectro, and suffers from ink swapping.  Canon, like HP, offers a wider range of inks and no ink swapping.  I don't believe Canon offers a built in spectro.  And the last time I checked, its model that is comparable to the Z3100 had a "locked" driver that in some cases would only allow for the use of Canon papers -- and for me, personally, that is a deal killer.  I don't know if that is still the case.  

The relevance of features to this thread is only this.  Any fool at Epson knows what their shortcomings are in terms of features, and that Canon and HP are taking away market share by adding new features to address the shortcomings of Epson.  Epson appears to be moving in the direction of releasing new models that solve ink swapping, include more inks, and may also include a built in spectro.  It is almost inevitable that Epson will release new models in the next year or so that include these features, and at the same price level as the Z3100.  (The new model under discussion in the forum is not an example, since I believe it is more expensive and is aimed at heavier industrial users, such as graphic shops.  One interesting point is that the spectro for the Epson will be attached to the front, and will be removed when printing.  At least that is my understanding.  Epson claims this is superior, because the spectro can't be fouled and messed up by ink spraying from the heads if the specto is in the same head unit, as with HP.  I have never read of any Z3100 spectro problems in that regard, but there are lots of postings about how to periodically clean the interior of the 3100 due to ink spraying.  Users can't access the HP spectro or clean its lens. Or even see if it has ink on it.  So it does make me wonder if Epson might not have a point, and a more robust design for the spectro, even if it is more expensive. )

(4)  What happens when two manufacturers offer same set of features at the same price price point?  Then what separates the two, and what differentiates one manufacturer and one product from another?

If the features and price are comparable, then these would be the determining issues:

Which manufacturer -- Epson, Canon or HP -- has the best professional level tech support?

Which manufacturer -- Epson, Canon or HP -- resolves issues the fastest and is the most responsive, professional and courteous in dealing with customers?

And which manufacturer -- Epson, Canon, or HP -- has more reports of problems and red flags in this and other forums?

HP has, as I have said, had over one year to improve the performance of its tech support.  After one full year that still hasn't happened, and the posting at the top of this thread is just one more bit of evidence in that regard.   Again, I can personally attest to the fact that HP in Spain never fully solved all Vista problems for some users of Vista.

If both Epson and HP have the same set of features in one year at about the same price, which would you buy, based on reading all the postings in this and other forums?  Which manufacturer has more red flags, more problems and more issues?

And which manufacturer has complaints about rude, unresponsive, and unprofessional tech support?  

HP has MANY.  

Canon has some, but it appears to be declining in recent months. Canon, unlike HP, appears to have improved its customer service and tech support.

Epson has almost none.

As I also said, any potential buyer of a printer must assume that he or she will have problems.  When you do, the record of the manufacturer on mechanical reliability, software stability, and tech support is very relevant.  Especially if the manufacturers offer similar features at a similar price.

That was my original question, and it will be very relevant at some point in the future.

My own bottom line, for anyone considering the purchase of a large format printer -- wait.

Wait to see what Epson, and Canon, offer in one year or so.  Then make your decision.

And, based on the problem we had with HP, wait at least three months AFTER the release of a new model, and six months would be better, to see if the price drops by an astonishing $800 or $900 in only the first three months, as compared with what the suckers who bought the printer and the APS paid for it in the first three months when those were released and could only be purchased separately.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 08:01:07 PM by marty m » Logged
Shutterbug2006
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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2008, 02:48:10 PM »
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My own bottom line, for anyone considering the purchase of a large format printer -- wait.

Wait to see what Epson, and Canon, offer in one year or so.  Then make your decision.

And, based on the problem we had with HP, wait at least three months AFTER the release of a new model, and six months would be better, to see if the price drops by an astonishing $800 or $900 in only the first three months, as compared with what the suckers who bought the printer and the APS paid for it in the first three months when those were released and could only be purchased separately.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There will always be lower prices, there will always be newer features... at some point you have to bite the bullet and go for the gusto. I waited a year to buy my Z3100, and it was precisely that I knew prices would drop and problems identified with first production units would be figured out and mostly eliminated.

I don't think anyone who ran out and bought the Z3100 when they were first released can be called a sucker though. Most people with experience buying new technology, expensive products, KNOW the price will drop significantly sometime thereafter - it's how the market works. They also know they come with teething pains. If they ran out and bought one, it was for some reason other than price.

I'm biased, and quite happy to admit it. HP has a fantastic product and I like what it does. If I had bought a Canon or an Epson, and was as impressed by it I'd say the same thing. As it is, I chose the HP because of the reviews, and because experts were gushing over what they had seen. They haven't done me wrong.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 02:55:46 PM by Shutterbug2006 » Logged
marty m
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2008, 05:24:37 PM »
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There will always be lower prices, there will always be newer features... at some point you have to bite the bullet and go for the gusto.  . .I don't think anyone who ran out and bought the Z3100 when they were first released can be called a sucker though . . .As it is, I chose the HP because of the reviews, and because experts were gushing over what they had seen. They haven't done me wrong.
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Almost all of the so-called expert reviews that you refer to are paid for by the manufacturers either indirectly or directly.  That is why they are so glowing and gushing.  The manufacturers give the reviewers free gear, long term (permanent) loans of equipment, whatever.  How else can these guys afford to buy entire new systems consisting of bodies costing $8,000 and each lens costing $1,000 to $2,000?  They either are independently wealthy and living on trust funds or they make more at their occupations than all of us.  So at least read the fine print, and see what the disclaimers are with regards to how the reviewers are compensated. Do they state, up front, that they refuse to accept indefinite (i.e. permanent) equipment loans from the manufacturers as part of the deal?  If not, they will not write a critical review and bite the hand that feeds them.  Is the printer or camera returned immediately after the review -- or do they conveniently keep it for many months or years, returning it only when the next model is released -- again in exchange for a rave and gushing review?  Do they get free merchandise or software?  If they write for a magazine, does the magazine only publish glowing reviews in exchange for advertising revenue from the same equipment that is reviewed?  Do the writers know that?  So the writers turn in glowing reviews, knowing that nothing else will be published and paid for by advertising?  Lacking any disclaimers, always assume that is the case.  I read the reviews to understand features, and never trust the evaluations -- especially when evaluations are gushing and and almost entirely positive.  

If you want to know what the actual experience is from users, forums like this are a much better way to judge.   This forum is particularly good in that regard, and the Z3100 is a good example.  There are a range of views expressed here, from very positive to very negative and everything in between.

As I've always said, some people are very happy with the Z3100.  Some are quite unhappy.  But there have been more red flags posted, and more problems reported, related to HP in this forum than to Epson.  That was my original point, it is still the point, and the posts on the forum (not just this thread) demonstrate that to be true.  My other point is that HP tech support in the U.S. remains inconsistent, and some continue to receive poor service on a very expensive professional level product.

And I can speak from personal experience that the development team in Spain never solved the Vista problems for some Vista users.  The development team in Spain, to my knowledge, simply gave up and walked away.  I also note that I repeated these problems on a notebook running XP, and others have reported Vista problems in this forum.  Because of the variability of PCs, as compared with standardized Macs, there may be some PCs that will be OK while others will have huge problems.  

As to waiting, that depends on whether the person is in a big rush.  If you must have a LF printer in the next month, then bite the bullet.  If not, then wait.  Why wait?  Because Epson will be releasing new models in the next year, and again, there are far fewer problems reported with that manufacturer.  (And now there are less problems reported related to Canon as well.)

Again, if you do buy immediately, stipulate on the sales receipt that the printer, upon delivery, will include the new star wheels and pinch rollers.

As to the issue of suckers who bought in the first three months, you are a late arrival  on the scene and are simply not aware of the debates over the 3100 that preceded you.  See this thread:

[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16442&st=0]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....opic=16442&st=0[/url]

And this thread:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=16717&hl=z3100

The evidence speaks for itself.  If you buy an HP product in the first three months, do so with the full knowledge that the price [on the combination of two products] could be cut by an astonishing $800 after the first three months.  Price cuts are inevitable, but rarely does a manufacturer cut prices by $800 in only the first three months.  Usually price cuts occur six months later, and even more likely, closer to one year after the release of the product.

When a manufacturer cuts prices by $800 in only the first three months, the lesson to be learned is to never buy their products when they are first released.  

Let the HP warehouses fill with unsold merchandise.  And wait to see if the price drops.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 04:12:27 AM by marty m » Logged
thierryd
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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2008, 08:55:25 AM »
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If the features and price are comparable, then these would be the determining issues:

Which manufacturer -- Epson, Canon or HP -- has the best professional level tech support?
Look at this forum. Obviously it depends where you live !

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Which manufacturer -- Epson, Canon or HP -- resolves issues the fastest and is the most responsive, professional and courteous in dealing with customers?
The question is who decides if a trouble is an issue ? Obviously for Epson, until now, the ink swap was not an issue. Last time I met an Epson seller, he just said I had to buy two printers ! Was this answer professional and courteous ? Courteous probably not, but rather professional. If I had the work for two printers, it would have been the fastest and most responsive answer.
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And which manufacturer -- Epson, Canon, or HP -- has more reports of problems and red flags in this and other forums?
All problems are not equal and you can't have only a statistic approach. You can't trust more people on a forum about printers than on a forum about... well the death of Elvis.  
Sometimes troubles are more users trouble than hardware trouble. First time people are using the Z3100, quiet often, they have trouble because they use it as if it was an Epson   They do the calibration only for one paper and suppose it will work for all papers as long as they have a specific profile for each paper.
Sometimes it's rather difficult to understand when you are reading a forum, if a trouble is marginal or not. When I had an Epson 4000, people (and I) were mad about the head cleaning (time consuming and money). When I read the forum about the new Epson printers now, I see only a few post complaining about the head cleaning and the Epson. Does it mean people are now used to it , or does it mean Epson fixed more or less the trouble and only a few people are unlucky? And in this case, what's happening with these people ?
I see only a few post about Canon. Does it mean Canon's printers are the best, or does it mean they don't sell a lot ?

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Almost all of the so-called expert reviews that you refer to are paid for by the manufacturers either indirectly or directly. That is why they are so glowing and gushing. The manufacturers give the reviewers free gear, long term (permanent) loans of equipment, whatever. How else can these guys afford to buy entire new systems consisting of bodies costing $8,000 and each lens costing $1,000 to $2,000?
I did some test Articles en français for www.photographie.com The manufacturers never gave to this website (or I) free or long term equipment  
The manufacturers need reviews to sell their equipment, and it's not so easy to find people able to do it.  The equipment is today highly sophisticate, it's very time consuming and you must have a good methodology. Just look on the forum for people pretending they are testing paper, camera or lense (testing paper without profiling, or lenses on different aperture and different subjects...). Landscape printing forum is of good level though.
Because I'm not a professional journalist, I only review equipment which I'm interested in. I bought an HP Z 3100 after my test,   but to a reseller and without rebates.  
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 09:03:16 AM by thierryd » Logged
Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2008, 09:14:28 AM »
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....
Let the HP warehouses fill with unsold merchandise.  And wait to see if the price drops.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow.
I'm sorry your HP experience left such a bitter taste in your mouth you need to keep posting angry accusations. I've owned both Epson and HP large format printers. Each has had its good and bad points. Epson's willful neglect of the black swap issue has always pissed me off a lot more than HP's hit or miss tech support, and Epson head clogs are a very real problem. I suspect that the colossal Epson installed base means there are a lot more sources of information for owners, while for HP this site is the best thing going. As a result you get a jaundiced view of the Z series problems because they all end up here.
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marty m
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« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2008, 02:01:38 PM »
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I'm sorry your HP experience left such a bitter taste in your mouth you need to keep posting angry accusations.  Epson's willful neglect of the black swap issue has always pissed me off a lot more than HP's hit or miss tech support, and Epson head clogs are a very real problem.  I suspect that the colossal Epson installed base means there are a lot more sources of information for owners, while for HP this site is the best thing going. As a result you get a jaundiced view of the Z series problems because they all end up here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219963\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let it be noted that I'm not the one who engaged in personal attacks and name calling. Instead of doing that, why not calmly respond?

I have asked all of you to point us to the web site and forum used by Epson owners that contains as many reported problems with that manufacturer.  None of you have ever done so.  (Maybe the Yahoo forums, which also have a forum for HP LF printers, but aren't used for a variety of reasons?)

Until someone can point to a forum for Epson with as many reported problems, then my point remains the same.  There are many more problems posted on this forum related to HP than there are to Epson.  More problems, more red flags.  

If Epson had anywhere near as many problems -- and it was then multiplied by the "colossal Epson installed base" that you refer to -- we would all know about it.  

Since that is apparently not the case -- Epson has far fewer reported problems with poor tech support and reliability -- and have far more owners and printers in use -- then they would logically have a far superior record.  Again, that has been my point from the start of this thread.

But unlike others, I'm not trying to convince anyone with personal anecdotal evidence.  I have told potential buyers -- don't take my word for it.  Or just the postings in this thread.  (Another point that I made.)   If you considering buying an HP, just do a search on all the postings related to HP and the Z3100 versus Epson and judge for yourself.  Ask yourself how many red flags and problems are posted about HP versus Epson.

As for head clogs and ink swapping, I already acknowledged that above.  To repeat what I already said, yes, the Z3100 has the best set features of any printer on the market.  (See my above posting.  I do not believe I was "bitter" but tried to be fair and accurate.)  

But that is matched by many more reported problems than Epson.  Based upon the next model release, Epson is clearly addressing both of those issues in future printers.  Again, as I already said above, if you must buy today and want those features regardless of problems or tech support, buy from HP.  If you aren't in a rush, wait to see what Epson offers.

One of my critics quotes my recommendation to wait three months before buying an HP product.  It is really remarkable that anyone disagree with the logic of waiting three to six months after the release of an HP product to see if the price drops based on our last experience.  

You must have good money to throw after bad.  And have an extra $800 to throw away.  Most of us would wait a mere three months for such a huge price drop.  My advice is just common sense.  If you have an extra $800 to burn, based on our last experience, then by all means buy the next HP LF printer on the first day that it is available.  It is your money to waste, after all.

Finally, since I am accused of rants and being bitter, let me note that I am also the only one to offer a new buyer of the Z3100 the critical advice to be certain it has the new starwheels and pinch rollers.  I didn't criticize the person from Canada for his purchase, I just posted (in a separate thread) that he needs to get a printer with up to date parts.  He thanked me, since obviously after spending thousands of dollars he wants the latest release of HP technology for the Z3100.

The defenders of HP are so busy denying the problems, and in some cases even denying that the new parts are necessary (then why did HP even provide them?) that you aren't even helping out new HP buyers with that advice.  Ironically, one of my above critics welcomed the person from Canada to the "cult" of Z3100 owners without offering that helpful advice. (The use of the world "cult" is his choice of words, but it says everything about the mindset of defending the cult, and why a heretic who dares to criticize HP is accused of being "bitter" and engaging in "rants.")

At least I offered the advice.  I guess even a "bitter" critic can perform a useful service for new owners and potential purchasers of the Z3100.

In closing, if Epson or Canon has just as many complaint and problems -- and should have more given the huge established owner base -- just document that.  Respond with reasoned arguments instead of personal attacks.

Until that time, my original point and ending point remains the same --

At the present time, Canon and Epson both have far fewer posted problems related to reliability, customer service, and tech support.  Buyer beware.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 05:33:14 PM by marty m » Logged
rdonson
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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2008, 04:29:19 PM »
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Marty,

You keep talking about price drops for HP LF printers.  I prefer to look at the overall cost.  When I bought my $4000 printer 16 months ago it came with a $1000 rebate and $300 worth of paper.  Is it shocking then that when HP drops the rebate and the free paper the printer sells for less than $4000?
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
marty m
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« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2008, 04:48:08 PM »
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Marty,

You keep talking about price drops for HP LF printers.  I prefer to look at the overall cost.  When I bought my $4000 printer 16 months ago it came with a $1000 rebate and $300 worth of paper.  Is it shocking then that when HP drops the rebate and the free paper the printer sells for less than $4000?
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The $800 loss was after the rebate and after the free paper was factored in and taken into account.  All of that was already covered at the time.  Like I said, if you have money to waste and to burn, go ahead and buy the next HP model on the day of release.  If they do the same thing -- cut the overall price by $800 in the first 90 days  after considering all discounts and rebates -- you have only yourself to blame.  You now know that HP does this.  We did not know that at the time.  

And as was noted at the time, almost no manufacturers cut the price that steeply in only the first 90 days, knowing that the message it sends is exactly the one I am conveying -- don't buy in the first 90 days the next time.  The reason most manufacturers wouldn't have done that (cut the price by $800 in the first three months) is because the lesson learned by consumers has one result and impact on HP -- the next time the inventory will just sit there in a warehouse unsold for the first 90 days because consumers sit and wait for the discount.  Yes, as I said, let the inventory sit in the warehouse for 90 days unless you have money to throw away.  

HP did this to themselves.  It is a self-inflicted wound.

Since I raised the $800 issue, let me note that it is a side issue to what started this thread.  The core issue is the overall record of HP, Canon and Epson in the area of reliability, customer service, tech support, complaints and red flags.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 05:23:23 PM by marty m » Logged
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