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Author Topic: New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)  (Read 192995 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2008, 07:41:16 AM »
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Dear Patrick,

- as said, ISO range is not yet definitive and we are still working on it: if we can give a usable ISO 1600 we will add it, if not it will be ISO 800.

- Adapter for Hasselbald V system: yes

- Adapter for Mamiya RZ: no

Best regards,
Thierry

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Thierry,
great news indeed.

I hope for 1600 "usable-no-noise" ISO
and adapterplates for my V system and Mamiya RZ pro II

patrick
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Thierry Hagenauer
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BJNY
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2008, 07:46:21 AM »
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Slightly off-topic....
when will the [necessary] 90º finder ship
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Guillermo
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2008, 08:28:54 AM »
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Hmmm.... somebody appears to have been listening to wishes vented here. Better display, JPG's on the fly. Definitely some things that people have been asking for. The proof is in the pudding of course but sounds like a very competent new product.

I just agreed to upgrading (maybe I should have waited but circumstances forced me for my own comfort to upgrade) so no potential customer here but it certainly is interesting especially if it comes close or exceeds the H3D31II' s ISO performance. It will be the only 31MP's 'high ISO' back that can be used with adapter plates.
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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2008, 09:13:10 AM »
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For your information:
- Active cooling: ventilator.
finally,

the fan.. and a nice looking back at that!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 09:19:13 AM by H1/A75 Guy » Logged
BJNY
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2008, 09:24:10 AM »
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Thierry,

When you're able to,
would you find out if the LCD will show the captured image
even while tethered?

James brought up this important feature
of the Phase digital backs.

Thanks again,
Billy
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 09:30:19 AM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
thsinar
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2008, 10:02:42 AM »
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Billy,

I will try to get this information, but probably not before next week.

Thierry

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Thierry,

When you're able to,
would you find out if the LCD will show the captured image
even while tethered?

James brought up this important feature
of the Phase digital backs.

Thanks again,
Billy
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2008, 10:29:42 AM »
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Crikey!

I like the look of the new back. I hope Sinar are going to do an upgrade deal - it makes my 54LV feel a tad lightweight; a great back though.

The clincher for me is the straight-to-DNG that the back can do, and the big screen.

Thanks for taking notes of our needs Sinar. It's going to be an interesting Photokina...
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rainer_v
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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2008, 11:47:40 AM »
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if the adapter plates are the same the contax-e75/54/22 adapter should work as well, or am i wrong herein?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 11:47:54 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2008, 12:06:45 PM »
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if it works on the mamiya 645, it should work on the RZ via the mamiya adapter?

a big question is price....i find 30mpix to be a perfect size...waaaay big enough for most things, but with the new other backs announced (full frame, really this time more or less, no really.....) and higher pixel counts and the H3 31 selling for 17000.....this has to come in under/at 20000 to compete.....

but really sounds like somebody listened....funny how everybody is switching with the new systems (sinar-kodak, phase-dalsa...)

great news from sinar....
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thsinar
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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2008, 12:08:35 PM »
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hi Rainer,

you are absolutely right: mechanically it does work/fit.

However, the Contax is not longer supported on the firmware level.

Cheers,
Thierry

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if the adapter plates are the same the contax-e75/54/22 adapter should work as well, or am i wrong herein?
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2008, 12:39:52 PM »
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Deleted.
Thierry to re-post.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 01:05:30 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2008, 12:40:55 PM »
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Deleted.
Thierry to re-post.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2008, 12:51:02 PM »
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Deleted: re-post
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 01:21:00 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2008, 01:19:29 PM »
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Thierry,
This really isn't directed at you, or Sinar, or any one company in particular, but for all medium format (actually all professional digital capture).

Dear James,

To say that I was not waiting for your reply would be lying!

Allow me to take it addressed to me (Sinar), otherwise I won't be able to answer precisely.

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1. Higher iso. A real clean 800. Not blochy, or noisy in the shadows but an 800 that at least equals the 1ds3. The instances where this is important means the difference from either not getting the shot or pulling out a dslr.

I agree with this, and we are well aware. If you have checked a ISO 800 file of the current eMotion 75 (see my samples posted months ago), then you could see that this in our capacity, to provide clean ISO 800 files.

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2. Stable software and a open source file. The software, must be completely 100% stable. One crash, one lost file and the mood in the room changes 100%. When tethering the software must be adjustable. No crunchy or hard previews but the ability to present on screen a very close representation of what the final image will look like. If the first frame on the screen produces a "wow" then the battle is half over. If the response is "is that moire, or is the image going to look like that?" then time, energy and mood is lost in conversation, rather than shooting.

Agreed, of course. I can only suggest to try eXposure, rather than having in your mind that it is certainly not stable. So far it has proven pretty stable. Now, to go as far as saying that a software has never a crash or never hangs: I would never believe this, from none of the manufacturers.

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With the Phase backs I and others have tethered to Lightroom even as far as running a processing script in photoshop on files so the client can see exactly where the image is going. The ability to achieve this close to final look in the tethering software has obvious benifits.

Yes, possible with Sinar.

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For high volume work the ability to rename, sort and move files quickly is a must. Flipping from one software to the next, just cause complexity and increases the chance to get it wrong, rather than insure that it is right.

Yes, also possible with Sinar.

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A file that works direct in almost any 3rd party processor has obvious benifits. I believe digital is a much more intimate process than film, just given the fact that I can take one "roll" and process it over and over in many different labs to achieve a different look. The workflow advantages of an open source file that works in anything just can't be overstated when you are working with thousands of images and a tight deadline.

That's why we have introduced a DNG workflow.

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3. In camera processing. Obviously Sinar has addressed this and for quick previews, web galleries etc. if the jpeg is good, the colors close to correct then this can save many hours in workflow. With the Canons I use the small jpegs and do some batch corrections in 3rd party software like lightroom. This makes for very fast previews and processing and keeps the raw files untouched. Working on a 24" I-mac and lightroom I can reprocess out a thousand jpegs for web galleries in just a few minutes.

Yes, agreed, and we have listened.

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4. LCD. It seems Sinar has addressed this also, though the proof is in the looking. I've owned Phase, Aptus, Canons (all of them) Leica and Nikon and if you shoot a non tethered image on any camera and compare it to the Nikon LCD, the client will look at the nikon image and say, "yea, use the big camera". Obviously Nikon has raised the bar on what a 3" lcd can do.

I believe that our 3" display comes close to the D3 one, if not equal: it has the same size, same resolution, capability to be adjusted, ...

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As Billy said, the lcd to run in parallel with the computer when tethered is a must. For locations where the monitor is 30 feet away it's almost impossible to run over every 10 frames to see if the changes and framing are correct. Even for studio, it takes the attention away from the process for the photographer to have to move over to the monitor to check a lighting change.

I will have to check this one: hold on for a while. I believe that it should not be a big issue if not implemented yet.

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5. Cameras. I like the thought of the AFI and HY6 (especially now that it's black and not appliance blue). I would like the thought of the camera a lot better if it worked on any digital back. Not that one back is better than the rest, (these forums are full of those comparisions), but to invest in an expensive system, I would to think that at least the camera is a 10 year buy and will not be viable only if the digital back is vialbe. As we all know things change fast in the digital world.

Well, that has been discussed many times: fact is that it is not accepting Phase One or Hasselblad backs.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2008, 01:20:10 PM »
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6. Rentals. All of these systems must be in the major market for rentals. With the Contax and it's pricing almost anyone can afford to own two complete systems, but few people will do that with a camera like the AFI and HY6. The lenses, at least the lenses, should be in every major rental house in every major market. What do you do if the 150mm goes down in studio?

Agreed.

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7. Price. I know every maker wants to get the news of their new equipment out, but the first thing I look at is price. Not just the buy in for the new equipment, but what I presently have invested. I'm careful in the way I purchase but right now, even with Contax and the smaller P30+ and P21+ backs I have close to $50,000 invested in those systems. For me to scrap that and go to any new back or camera, I have to know exactly what it is going to cost me.

Yes, prices are important for the endusers. Believe me that we do our best here. On the other hand, we cannot calculate a price which we know being a loss for the company. There is a price we need to ask for, seriously calculated, not to steal the money from the customers, but to be able to survive. I agree that it is then the decision of this customer to accept this price or not.

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8. Clairty. Maybe I'm reading this wrong but the new HY6 camera annoucement somewhat confuses me. You do have it where it rotates on the camera and you don't have it where it rotates on the camera.

I might also not have been very clear. There are 2 Hy6 camera systems:

- the Sinar Hy6 - 65: it is an integrated system, the back can be taken away and rotated, but this back cannot be adapted to another camera platform/brand.

- the Sinar Hy6 - s65r: this camera system has a REVOLVING adapter. The digital back for this configuration can accept any adapter to mount the back to other MF bodies (Hasselblad V, H1/H2, Mamiya 645, Sinar m). Contax is not longer supported.

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Why not just one back that fits the HY6 that rotates?
Is this a cost measure or an engineering problem, actually that doesn't matter to me, but what does matter is the usability.

Both backs rotate: one by taking it away, the other by revolving on/with the adapter.
Why 2 different?: simply because of different needs and different prices.

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You mention you might go to 800 iso or might go to 1600 iso. No offense meant but medium format is notorious for making a "suggestion" and then not following up for long time.

I have PURPOSELY not indicated the definitive ISO range, because we are still working on it. If we are able to deliver a CLEAN ISO 1600, then we will implement it at Photokina. If not, then it will be ISO 800 AT Photokina. Concerning the quality of this ISO 800, and without having tested/seen it yet, I beleive that it will be at least as good as the ISO 800 available from the eMotion 75 MPx, probably better.

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Once again I know you want to get your message out, but I don't understand partial messages because at this price range you can't make a decision based on partial information.

This is not a matter of not wanting to tell, but simply a wish to give the best possible without making false promises or statements.

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Take this with a grain of salt as this is just what I need from a system and I don't know if it is what others would necessarily ask for.

I do take it seriously. Your input is valuable and am convinced that many others see it this way also.

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I wish you all the best with your new camera.
JR

Thanks James, much appreciated.

best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Mitchell Baum
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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2008, 01:55:24 PM »
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Can't wait to hear prices, and see how good the screen is. I demoed the Hy6 75LV, and the camera handles like a dream.

Best,

Mitchell
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thsinar
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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2008, 09:11:08 PM »
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Billy,

No, it is not touchscreen.

There is a little "rolling" knob which does the navigation, when moved in the different directions: very convenient to use, and fast with it.

It is the outer left (brighter grey) knob.

Best regards,
Thierry

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I don't see any menu navigation controls
so is it a touchscreen? 
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2008, 09:17:04 PM »
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Some more information as it comes in:

Supported image parameters from the menu:

- Contrast
- Saturation
- Unsharp mask
- Noise filter
- Automatic white balance / color temperature
- 3 color spaces (sRGB, Adobe RGB and ECI RGB)

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Mitchell Baum
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« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2008, 10:09:07 PM »
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A Sinar employee reminded me that Jenoptic created the in-camera processing for Leica M8 DNGs.

The new Hy6 65 builds on the same technology, like Leica, with a Kodak chip. As M8 files seem to hit well above their 11MB weight, it will be interesting to see how the 65 does with true 16 bit files. Also the M8 screen, while smaller than the 65's 3 inch screen, does well fueled by in-camera jpegs.

Best,

Mitchell
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 10:12:44 PM by Mitchell Baum » Logged
klane
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2008, 12:32:32 AM »
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So far I'm impressed  
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