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Author Topic: New Sinar Hy6 - 65 Camera System (31 MPx)  (Read 191908 times)
CaptainHook
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2008, 01:51:37 AM »
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- Adapter for Mamiya RZ: no
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tho_mas
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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2008, 03:34:19 AM »
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3 color spaces ... ECI RGB[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218205\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
good!
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« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2008, 03:59:52 AM »
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Auto WB - excellent!

But no Contax adapter?! Boo! I have a great range of lenses for my Contax including a tilt/shift 100mm and a Hasselblad 110mm f2 with an adapter that I use often on my Contax, and I would still like to be able to use these lenses and body with any new digital back I buy. The cost of upgrading the back is high enough, without the need for a new body and lenses....

Please reconsider!

Ben
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 04:00:33 AM by bdp » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2008, 08:38:21 AM »
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Dear Ben,

I have forwarded your remark/wish, as well as all others going in the same direction, and asked for reconsideration.

Best regards,
Thierry

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But no Contax adapter?!

Please reconsider!

Ben
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 08:38:39 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2008, 10:03:29 AM »
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Dear Ben,

I have forwarded your remark/wish, as well as all others going in the same direction, and asked for reconsideration.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have to admit I'm really amazed by all of this.  I heard a rumor that Sinar was going to have a new lcd and in camera processing, but quite honestly I didn't take it all that seriously, because rumors in the camera world are abundant.

If Sinar can really get a clean 800 iso (and by clean not just 800 iso but detailed smooth 800) then with all the other features that is something to consider.

I've always said don't give me something I currently have give me something I can't live without.

Obviously I'd love to see a Contax mount, if only to make a transition easier from the HY6 to the current system I use and the ability to make my 75lb case of lenses still viable.

I think the ability to change mounts of a mfdb is beyond a plus.  Not only it is one way to make the price of a back easier to take, but it allows for so many different looks.

Even if you wanted to use the back 90% of the time on an HY6 there are other uses like the RZ for  in studio beauty and the Contax using tilt shifts, the 35mm and the fast 80mm.

Also it gives you a way to have a backup without spending another $10,000.

Now Theirry we are we waiting for the other shoe to fall.  

No disrespect meant to anyone, but a lot of the time,  medium format tends to not be that on point when it comes to delivery and getting all of the kinks worked out at delivery.

Also some mediuum format is also not that good at meeting their own self imposed deadlines.

If this new back and camera has everything that is promised, a clean high iso, stable software and is competitive in price you really have something.

That and if it's marketed well.  Medium format seems to make the marketing effort difficult at best and in fact lately I could write a small book on the challanges in the medium format marketing effort.

Once again, I wish you the best with this camera.  If it hits all the points it will be good for our industry.

Sinar was obviously not just listening, they responded.

I am still amazed.

JR
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gwhitf
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« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2008, 10:28:01 AM »
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- Prices available at Photokina.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

I'm sure you're a nice guy, but to just give you some feedback from a potential customer: Why would you come to the town square, like a Town Crier, and yell out all this information, but not have a price for it? You guys wonder why we accuse you MF reps of being used-car salesmen, and this is one reason. It just feels like bait-and-switch, or in the least, "get the customer hyped up", instead of one man looking into another man's eyes, and saying "here is my product; these are the details; this is the price", like a respectable man would.

This camera system does indeed sound interesting, and it does sound like Sinar has listened and responded, but seriously, to do business this way is infuriating.

Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week".

Trust me, it's as basic as that.

This is business, not personal. But if you want to know what's behind some of the resentment toward most anything MediumFormat, it's practices like not having your act together when you come to market.

Would Apple Computer announce a product without all the details? No way in hell. You want Apple loyalty?; then treat customers like grown-ups. I know you're excited, but you have to know the effect of half-disclosure.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 10:46:14 AM by gwhitf » Logged
BJNY
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« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2008, 10:46:20 AM »
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I beleive that it will be at least as good as the ISO 800 available from the eMotion 75 MPx, probably better.
Quote
If Sinar can really get a clean 800 iso (and by clean not just 800 iso but detailed smooth 800) then with all the other features that is something to consider.
James, Here are the 800 ISO examples from the eMotion75LV-II with Dalsa 33MP :
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683

.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2008, 10:54:54 AM »
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Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week". [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe. But here is no girl, yet. Just a poster with the girl under the headline: "will be here next week."
What's the problem? It's an announcement - less than that. A kind of preview of what one can - probably! - expect from the upcoming product. And when it's out... there will be a price.
So read the the thread again after photokina. No?
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BJNY
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« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2008, 11:02:44 AM »
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Once again, I wish you the best with this camera. If it hits all the points it will be good for our industry.

Sinar was obviously not just listening, they responded.

I am still amazed.

JR

Well, if THAT isn't the highest compliment,
and deserved for 1 fps, "D3" class LCD (TBD), DNG format, simultaneous JPEG, FW800

I was the original complainer of the color scheme, and it was addressed as well.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=185636
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php...58&postcount=14

However, still pending are:
- whereabouts of 90 finder
- whereabouts of electronic cable releases
- more AF lenses are needed aside from the expected 35mm focal length
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 11:58:06 AM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2008, 11:06:43 AM »
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Trust me, it's as basic as that.

This is business, not personal.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Since I'm a list guy, I have a list for getting a camera to market.

1.  Price it.  Not just the body, or the finders or the new lenses, but everything.  Body, finder, lenses, legacy lenses, where you can get them, what they cost in each market.  I routinely estimate jobs in three markets, like Portugal, San Francisco and New York and do it down to the fine detail of talent, catering, weather, location fees, etc. and if my studio can go to this detail, so can Sinar or any company.

2.  Meet the delivery deadlines.  If you won't have everything (underscore everything) out at a certain time, then give yourself a longer deadline.  Don't miss it because the moment you break a promise you lose credibility.

3.  Demonstrate the software.   Look at Adobe's Dr. Brown videos.  Those are on point and easy to understand.  Show your software in action.  Show what happens when a series of files have to be renamed, or moved or background processed.  Durinng this, shoot 12 frames and pull the firewire cord to show how easy (or not easy) it is to reconnect.  Get that information on the web and in downloadable fashion and prove to your customer that you are not the best solution, you are the only solution.

4.  Once again, get it in rentals.  I don't expect to find a new Hy6 in Des Moinse, but I do expect to rent a backup (if needed) in Paris, London, Milan, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Miami, Los Angeles.  You'd be smart to add Dallas, Chicago and Barcelona.

5.  Put this camera in good photographers hands and get some beautiful imagery shot with it.
I and a lot of others are approached by camera companies.  Some are quite good and honest at marketing and others well to be polite just seem to be all over the place.  Have great photographers shoot great imagery and treat the people that use your cameras with  the same respect you want for your own self and company.  Keep the marketing honest and to the point and show beautiful imagery.

6.  Once again clarity.  Don't spend time driving over the backs, putting them in microwaves, or calling something full frame that is not full frame.  Your selling to a professional market and the message should be simple and professional.  As gwitif says, look at Apple.  It's to the point, it's professional, it's clean, it's available.  

7. Follow up on everything.  I've owned about $140,000 in digital cameras and backs and not once have I had one company or dealer call me and ask if I was happy with my purchase.   I can take my wife's car in for an oil change at the dealer and I get three calls asking if the service was satisfactory.

8.  Respect your customers.  (See #7).  Don't send out generic lists asking for 15 minutes of my time to slot into some kind of focus group presentation (See Hasselblad for what not to do).  Make the call, ask the questions, volunteer your services and even if your customer declines he will always appreciate it.  

9. Get in front of the hard issues.  See Yair of Leaf and Rick of Leaf Of America for this example.  If a customer has a problem then get in front of it, get a result and give an answer.  Rick is available 8 hours a day, Yair I think 24 hours a day (sorry Yair) and they get to a result. Theirry I'm sure your good in your market and obviously good on this forum, but once past you there doesn't seem to be a lot of information from Sinar.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

JR
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 11:07:23 AM by James R Russell » Logged

flashfredrikson
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2008, 11:50:33 AM »
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german site photoscala published the press release from sinar:
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Mittelfor...t-31-Megapixeln

it says iso 200 to 800 (?!), exposures from 1/1000 to 32 sec, Jpgs with 31, 17, 8 and 3 MP and some other stuff...


martin.
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thsinar
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2008, 12:03:30 PM »
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hi gwhitf,

It has little to do with being a nice guy or taking it on a personal level, but rather with being open, as open as possible. I guess you have seen some changes when it comes to being open, concerning Sinar, those last couple of years. And you will most certainly see more in the future.

This was/is an announcement, like Apple (by well-directed rumours, among others) and many other big companies are doing them: by giving the information about a product to come. The day this product is then presented, this same day you have the prices. Apple is doing it this way, and many others, included in our field.

You will see the Sinar Hy6 - 65, the Sinar Hy6 s65r and the Sinarback eSprit 65 at Photokina, on September 23rd, and then the prices will be published. This is in 3 weeks time.

Now, if I have not given the prices, it is simply because there are reasons for this, the most important being that I don't have them yet, not because I was denied the right to publish them, or for any other obscure reason.

I really don't see the problem here, and how it can be such infuriating. Sounds a bit harsh for me. I (Sinar) have simply informed about the direction we are going to. Of course my hope is to create some interest among some, and hopefully as many as possible. Sounds fair and logical. But again, "hype" seems here as well a harsh wording, especially if one takes the literal definition (greatly exaggerated publicity).

Anyway, I shall continue to publish the information as it comes to me, for the sake of trying to give a more open image, but apparently with the risk of still being criticized.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I'm sure you're a nice guy, but to just give you some feedback from a potential customer: Why would you come to the town square, like a Town Crier, and yell out all this information, but not have a price for it? You guys wonder why we accuse you MF reps of being used-car salesmen, and this is one reason. It just feels like bait-and-switch, or in the least, "get the customer hyped up", instead of one man looking into another man's eyes, and saying "here is my product; these are the details; this is the price", like a respectable man would.

This camera system does indeed sound interesting, and it does sound like Sinar has listened and responded, but seriously, to do business this way is infuriating.

Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week".

Trust me, it's as basic as that.

This is business, not personal. But if you want to know what's behind some of the resentment toward most anything MediumFormat, it's practices like not having your act together when you come to market.

Would Apple Computer announce a product without all the details? No way in hell. You want Apple loyalty?; then treat customers like grown-ups. I know you're excited, but you have to know the effect of half-disclosure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2008, 12:07:04 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY,Aug 30 2008, 11:46 AM
James, Here are the 800 ISO examples from the eMotion75LV-II with Dalsa 33MP :
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683

.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218278\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]


Thanks Billy,

Iso is hard to view on the web or for that matter for what most of us use high iso for.

I've seen samples of 800 iso on a lot of cameras shot overexposed or with a lot of light (I don't mean these samples are like that), though if you have a lot of light, or can overexpose then it really doesn't equate to what we use high iso for.

I can site 4 examples in the last 4 weeks where I used 800 iso that saved the shot.  Shooting in Miami where the weather turned to hell and black outside, required about 8 billion watts of strobe to make the outside sunlight bright, continuous lights inside to balance the model and without a clean 800, we would have just waited or not got the shot.

The P30+ does do 800 iso clean with a lot of light, but then again that's what we use that iso for.

I've shot it with hmi's at 800 iso in something like the Miami scenario and it blocks up and renders funny and I've processed the files in 4 convertors trying to find the right look and each time the results are not even close to the new Canons.

Obviously I can and do carry other cameras for just these instances, but sometimes that's just not the best process.  For one it's difficult to go from the 2:3 canon crop to the 4:3 Contax crop and I get in a zone with a camera, switiching takes some concentration.

Also just carrying extra camera systems is now a nightmare on the airlines, domestic as well as international.

I have a project coming up in three countries in Asia.  If my medium format backs would go to 800 iso, then it's one camera case, but as of today it's two, maybe three.

JR
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2008, 12:13:28 PM »
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hi Billy,

- 90 Finder: I was told that we will have the first 3 at our Photokina booth
- Cable Release: also at our booth, during Photokina
- Zoom AFD 60-140 is in production and the first units are available
- 35 AFD Flektogon is expected as prototype for Photokina

Best regards,
Thierry

Edited for correction: the 35mm AFD will most certainly not be available as prototype at Photokina (latest information)

Quote
However, still pending are:
- whereabouts of 90 finder
- whereabouts of electronic cable releases
- more AF lenses are needed aside from the expected 35mm focal length
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218281\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 12:18:42 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2008, 12:17:06 PM »
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- 90 Finder: I was told that we will have the first 3 at our Photokina booth
Do you know the reason for the delay?

Quote
- Cable Release: also at our booth, during Photokina
Shipping a camera for almost a year without a cable release provision wasn't smart planning on F&H's part.  
Please bring back the mechanical cable release socket present in all the Rollei-6000 series camera bodies.

Quote
- Zoom AFD 60-140 is in production and the first units are available
"The Beast" Did they find a way to make it smaller?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 12:36:04 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2008, 12:30:38 PM »
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James,

since you ask me to correct you if wrong, I do it.

I really think you are wrong and that there are many other helpful Sinar resps, service persons, tech persons, etc ... from Sinar directly or from our distributors, who do all take over when it comes to an issue and who actually go in front of it and deliver a result.

Dig a bit on this forum or on others: it is not only me being on LL and helping to solve. I have read many compliments recently about the service and support provided in the US.

I will however not go as far as to wish to have you as customer and then have a problem with the product to prove what I am telling.

I simply want to say that things have changed, and you might not yet be well aware of it.

As for the rest of your list, point 1. to 8.: I do fully adhere to it and it has already gone its way to Sinar.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Since I'm a list guy, I have a list for getting a camera to market.

9. Get in front of the hard issues.  See Yair of Leaf and Rick of Leaf Of America for this example.  If a customer has a problem then get in front of it, get a result and give an answer.  Rick is available 8 hours a day, Yair I think 24 hours a day (sorry Yair) and they get to a result. Theirry I'm sure your good in your market and obviously good on this forum, but once past you there doesn't seem to be a lot of information from Sinar.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2008, 12:32:11 PM »
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Billy,

it was not in my luggage, when I came back from Switzerland last week, and I haven't seen it. But I expect it to be approximatively the same.

Thierry

Quote
Thanks, Thierry.
Did they somehow make it smaller?
It is an absolute beast (huge).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 11:15:15 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2008, 12:38:31 PM »
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FYI:

I had at the time of this post made the DNG available and many have downloaded it: if you read the comments of those having "dissected" it to the last detail, there was only "wows" and "disbelief".

Concerning the light conditions under which it was shot: I did the shot, in the early morning when the sun was about to rise, with very little light (f5.6 at 1/40th and under-exposed by about 2.5 stops)

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thanks Billy,

Iso is hard to view on the web or for that matter for what most of us use high iso for.

I've seen samples of 800 iso on a lot of cameras shot overexposed or with a lot of light (I don't mean these samples are like that), though if you have a lot of light, or can overexpose then it really doesn't equate to what we use high iso for.

I can site 4 examples in the last 4 weeks where I used 800 iso that saved the shot.  Shooting in Miami where the weather turned to hell and black outside, required about 8 billion watts of strobe to make the outside sunlight bright, continuous lights inside to balance the model and without a clean 800, we would have just waited or not got the shot.

The P30+ does do 800 iso clean with a lot of light, but then again that's what we use that iso for.

I've shot it with hmi's at 800 iso in something like the Miami scenario and it blocks up and renders funny and I've processed the files in 4 convertors trying to find the right look and each time the results are not even close to the new Canons.

Obviously I can and do carry other cameras for just these instances, but sometimes that's just not the best process.  For one it's difficult to go from the 2:3 canon crop to the 4:3 Contax crop and I get in a zone with a camera, switiching takes some concentration.

Also just carrying extra camera systems is now a nightmare on the airlines, domestic as well as international.

I have a project coming up in three countries in Asia.  If my medium format backs would go to 800 iso, then it's one camera case, but as of today it's two, maybe three.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 12:39:18 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2008, 12:41:49 PM »
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Do you know the reason for the delay?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nope, but I suspect James is right when saying "plan longer deadline when not sure".


Quote
Please bring back the mechanical cable release socket present in all the Rollei-6000 series camera bodies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not sure if this is feasible.

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2008, 01:27:19 PM »
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Please bring back the mechanical cable release socket present in all the Rollei-6000 series camera bodies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have a 6008 and I use an electronic release. It is so much better than a mechanical release. I think they made the right decision. It's an easy part to make so I assume they've been flat out with other things. I use my remote release a lot and agree that it's a very useful and important accessory.
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