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Author Topic: RED DSLRs!!!  (Read 20670 times)
BJNY
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« on: August 30, 2008, 12:23:19 PM »
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http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/30/reds-ne...-monstro-dslrs/

Red CEO, Jim Jannard, is stirring up trouble in the RED User forums, J. Wong-style. His latest volley discusses the new Mysterium "Monstro" sensor program, the next evolution (and future free upgrade) to the Mysterium X sensor slated for RED's 5k Epic. The most interesting revelation though is this little nugget: in addition to Epic, RED plans to place Monstro into, "another camera aimed squarely at the DSLR market." He later adds, "Future cameras will shoot ultra-high resolution stills and motion..." Now, considering that the second generation, full-frame, ~25 megapixel Mysterium X is already a serious challenge to 35mm film, we can only imagine what this DSLR with a third generation RED sensor might offer. Hear that Nikon? Your D90 is just the beginning of this story. Let's just hope that televisions and monitors, already struggling to reach 4k, Quad HD can keep pace.
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Guillermo
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 01:18:39 PM »
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Why start a thread about a RED film camera? It's not medium format. In fact it's a very different beast. People who think this will replace still cameras for more than a few niche purposes are kidding themselves.

I had a look at the Mysterium specs and as far as I can tell you get:

- a very wide aspect ratio, nearly 2:1
- no control whatsoever over exposure time
- no variable ISO setting
- zero compatibility with flash
- serious power requirements if you want use continuous lighting on location
- no used market for cheap parts or lenses
- only 12 MP
- less dynamic range than MFDB
(if I'm wrong about any of these please show us all a link with more info)

All for $17,500, and that's just the body.

If anyone else introduced a camera with a fixed ISO setting and a fixed shutter speed at this price and resolution, the forum would trash it immediately, and rightly so.
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BJNY
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 01:23:56 PM »
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I started the thread here
because this is where some very interesting posts have been made about RED video cameras
by the likes of James Russell, Tim Ludin, EPd, TMARK, Studio12NYC, and others.

Edit: added names
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 11:50:32 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 03:43:12 PM »
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Why start a thread about a RED film camera? It's not medium format. In fact it's a very different beast. People who think this will replace still cameras for more than a few niche purposes are kidding themselves.

I had a look at the Mysterium specs and as far as I can tell you get:

- a very wide aspect ratio, nearly 2:1
- no control whatsoever over exposure time
- no variable ISO setting
- zero compatibility with flash
- serious power requirements if you want use continuous lighting on location
- no used market for cheap parts or lenses
- only 12 MP
- less dynamic range than MFDB
(if I'm wrong about any of these please show us all a link with more info)

All for $17,500, and that's just the body.

If anyone else introduced a camera with a fixed ISO setting and a fixed shutter speed at this price and resolution, the forum would trash it immediately, and rightly so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Careful, you have missed a few important facts here. Do some more research and carry an attitude that serves your knowledge. This is not up to your usual standards which are very good. However the RED one is correctly not a medium format camera and another forum for this kind of post exists on LL.

This whole news story is not about the RED ONE camera which you quote tech specs from, it carries the 1.gen red sensor ("Mysterium"). This is about the 3. generation sensor (3.gen is "Mysterium - Monstro", 2. gen is called "Mysterium - X") not even off the drawing board yet (or it could be in prototype/engineering sample state for all I know). RED is announcing way ahead on new products, not the usuall 2-3 months Canon or Phase is.

The rest is based on both facts and speculation, but not from my side - its from the common speculation on the red and scarlet forums so don't hang me for this. Go post at reduser.com

About your specs:
- It will have a very wide aspect ratio, although it might not be as wide as you indicate - this is a long story you need to read long postings on this topic to get the details. No hard facts on this one, but not one supporting that they will keep 2:1 either.
- Exposure time is fully controllable on the RED One and will be for all future cameras, where did you get this from?
- ISO is just as variable as on any other MFDB without analogue gain or with similar pre A/D converter circuitry. Same concept, RED is simply honest about it - can't say that for the MFDB makers on this topic. ISO is a meta data component as it is on my Leaf. You might dial in ISO of your wish though, and it will affect metering and preview.
- Flash compatibility is directly supported from the RED Scarlet and onwards, by rumours as Scarlet isn't out of the works yet. How this flash sync will work is beyond me as it isn't much available on that. Anyway you can get some 3.party gadgets and you can have strobe sync for every frame if you wish to. It uses the genlock capabilities for the sync. You will need a studio type flash with long controllable burn time as they employ an electronic shutter and that causes issues with flash, without genlock its impossible - with it requires a long burn time. So no motion freeze from the flash, it will have to be shutter freeze. (This was all about RED One and Scarlet) But when Jim Jannard announces a future camera for stills he will again deliver a product made for its purpose and flash capabilities will be in it, or he won't sell any of them. Simple logic.
- Serious power has to do with the choice of lighting and the fact you shoot moving image, I use continuous lighting sometimes for stills and always for video and several other photographers in my local town do that occasionally, specially for wedding photos - nothing new here. But before this dSLR is out of the works - LED lighting fixtures will be both mainstream and more costeffective - today they are just mainstream but expensive as h#ll. But serious power will be needed.
- Support for Canon and Nikon mounts is already in place - how much more common than that do you need to be? The Zeiss ZF mount lenses are excellent for the RED One.
- The 2.gen sensor is rumoured to be 25MPx, the 3.gen most probably will be at least that.
- Dynamic range for 1.gen is 66dB, DR is one of their main focuses. The 3. gen is promised to be better than the 2. gen which is promised to be better than the 1.gen. How many dB they end up on is unsure - but it will be pretty close to the MFDB 70dB+ or more if one is to believe the hype from RED itself.
- the price for RED One is 17.500$ - EPIC with 2.gen sensor, although with 1 free upgrade to 3.gen sensor, is 40k$ How much the dSLR style 3.gen camera will be is pure speculation, but until now RED has beaten down all established pricing regimes in its industry, so time will tell.

All I base this on is my focus on this company and the RED supported forums. But there is nothing pointing to the facts you present for the announced future dSLR, the specs you wrote is for teh RED One camera - a motion film camera which is in use today and there is 2800 units out there as we speak and they claim they might catch up with the backorder in january totalling about 4100++ units, this is not a lot in stills photo terms, but hell of alot in digital motion film terms.
Timescale for the dSLR is likely years from now though, so don't get all exited about it. Imagine what the latest 3 years have brought us and extrapolate that to other manufacturers and this isn't that revolutionary.

The links you ask for is all at reduser.com or scarletuser.com , but you have to back up your statements first to prove your statements here.

Don't kill the messenger, you had your cowboy hat on in this thread not me. And we should continue this is teh correct forum.
MHO
Robin Balas
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 03:59:55 PM »
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Well Red only has the 1st gen Mysterium on its website. I don't see any point in comparing rumoured future models from Red (especially 2 generations ahead!) with production units from other companies. Hardly a level playing field, and rumours start too many problems here.

I wasn't presenting facts about a future product, merely (as I wrote) assessing the suitability of the current top model for still photography.

Anyway, no hard feelings. I am just sick of hearing about Red and Canon in the MFD forum.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 04:10:32 PM by foto-z » Logged

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BJNY
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 04:31:38 PM »
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As primarily a medium format digital user,
any development which either makes my job easier;
or will give me more flexibility or opportunities
gets my attention.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 04:40:32 PM »
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Anyway, no hard feelings. I am just sick of hearing about Red and Canon in the MFD forum.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why?

This is the logical place as this is section probably has  more working professionals than any other section of the forum and the RED and the Canons are professional cameras.

If you limited every post down to actual shipping equipment that is fully developed and is on the shelf there wouldn't be much to talk about right now other than the 6008 (all 9 of them), the RZ (all 25 million of them), the Contax, the old Mamiya 645 and the Hasselblad H-1,2.

Unless it's shipping, it is all rumored, whether any of us like it or not.

Regardless, you have to give Red credit for taking one element of photography by storm and by surprise.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts any medium format back maker would love to have a list of orders as long as the RED.

JR
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 04:50:26 PM »
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Why?

This is the logical place as this is section probably has  more working professionals than any other section of the forum and the RED and the Canons are professional cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

More logical than the Canon forum?
There are probably more than 100 different cameras in use by full time professional photographers today. Should they all be discussed here?
I just don't see the logic.
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michael
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 05:05:32 PM »
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Graham,

This section is about as close to a Pro forum as we have. So, leave the section minding to me, if you don't mind. I have no problem with RED discussions being here at the moment.

Having said that, and with the Nikon D90 already announced, and the XXX DSLR also with video capability just around the corner, I expect that I'll be starting a HYBRID forum soon enough.

Michael
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 05:06:14 PM by michael » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2008, 05:56:12 PM »
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The whole market may turn, which I think would be awesome.

If Red can deliver a MFDB look in a dslr with multiple lens mounts, maybe allow MF lenses to work on their DSLR, maybe make the chip bigger, then I will be there.  I bet they could deliver the rumoured "Leica MFDB" at a lower cost and better than the good people from Solms.  Really.
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2008, 06:07:40 PM »
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Why start a thread about a RED film camera? It's not medium format. In fact it's a very different beast. People who think this will replace still cameras for more than a few niche purposes are kidding themselves.

I had a look at the Mysterium specs and as far as I can tell you get:

- a very wide aspect ratio, nearly 2:1
- no control whatsoever over exposure time
- no variable ISO setting
- zero compatibility with flash
- serious power requirements if you want use continuous lighting on location
- no used market for cheap parts or lenses
- only 12 MP
- less dynamic range than MFDB
(if I'm wrong about any of these please show us all a link with more info)

All for $17,500, and that's just the body.

If anyone else introduced a camera with a fixed ISO setting and a fixed shutter speed at this price and resolution, the forum would trash it immediately, and rightly so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Current Mysterium is 4520x2540, and that aspect ratio is designed for it's cinematic use. Jim is talking about new sensor designs anyway.
I don't know why you think exposure time has no control. Of course it does. How else can it work?
As used in RED One we don't do traditional analogue gain for ISO - why because in tests I found, perversely, digital gain worked better, and gave a wider dynamic range, and ability to roll off the highlights more smoothly at high ISO.
It's a movie camera - and if you need to sync lights there's signals you can drive that off.
No used market for PL mount lenses - surely you jest.
"Only 12mp" - for a 60fps readout with a very fast read/reset that's quite something. Just look at the image skew on the D90 - it's practically unusable. Again, 12mp is the current RED One, not the DSLR that Jim mentions.

Fact is that the RED One is in use now, making great looking movies, has great workflow and flexibility, great image quality and this is just the very first camera product, with the very first sensor we've developed.

Remember Jim  is  talking about  a new camera in development, specifically designed for shooting stills, rather than our first product, the RED One for movies, and Scarlet, which is a movie / convergence / stills camera.

Graeme
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2008, 06:15:54 PM »
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Graeme, I think the Red is a fabulous movie camera. No questions there. I was responding to the general Red talk in this forum in which people were predicting the end of still cameras, as people start to use Red cameras and select stills. I hope that makes sense. I also wasn't aware that Red offered a Canon EOS mount. I stand corrected there.
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2008, 06:47:18 PM »
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Graeme, I think the Red is a fabulous movie camera. No questions there. I was responding to the general Red talk in this forum in which people were predicting the end of still cameras, as people start to use Red cameras and select stills. I hope that makes sense. I also wasn't aware that Red offered a Canon EOS mount. I stand corrected there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218357\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There will be no end to still cameras, its that there is an incredible demand for video.  Many of my clients want video for POP displays and other in-store collateral.  They want images they can use on LCD's in a store, on their web site, and for presentations.  They also want stills, but its taking a back seat to video.  I'm not happy about it, but I sure am staying busy.  

No a Red still camera might be the answer to many problems I have.  First off, the 35mm dslrs mostly don't do it for me.  I like the look of the larger sensor, and I like the MF lenses.  That being said, if Red made a dslr that had the specs of teh camera rumoured in the "Lecia MFDB" thread, I'm sold.  Let it mount PL lenses, M lenses, F mount, Konica, Mamiya, Blad, what ever. It would be amazing.  Make it cheap enough that its suitable for editorial, and game over.  Red wins the dslr/lower end digital camera war.
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BJL
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2008, 07:49:30 PM »
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Apart from the 2/3" format 3K sensor for the Scarlet, the three Red "cine grade" sensors we know anything about are or will all be in Super 35mm cine format, which is about 13.7x24.4mm [Edit: 24.4 not 25.7]; NOT the 24x36mm of most 35mm still cameras. The 13.7x24.4mm dimensions come from the specs for the current Red One, which offers 4K resolution of 4520x2540, about 12MP, so 5.4 micron pixel spacing. The aspect ratio is typical modern cinema value of about 1.8.

The Epic will use the 5K "Mysterium X" sensor also stated to be in Super 35mm format. I am not sure of the exact numbers, but the step up from 4K to 5K is I believe a linear factor of 5/4 in pixel count, so should increase pixel count to about (5/4)^2*12MP = 19MP and decrease pixel spacing to about 3.4 microns. I do not know where the 25MP figure comes from; not from Red's website.

The Monstro sensor due in 2010 will be available as an upgrade for the Epic, so must also be in Super 35mm format.

http://www.red.com/cameras/tech_specs
http://www.red.com/nab/epic
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 10:40:41 PM by BJL » Logged
Mort54
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2008, 12:38:22 AM »
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I don't understand all the enthusiastic comments here regarding possible future RED cameras with stills capability. I understand it has shaken up the traditional movie film world, but aren't we still basically talking about roughly an APS-C sized sensor? Super 35 is 24.4mm x 13.7mm, APS-C is 23.6mm x 15.8mm. Should we really expect competitive stills IQ from a high MP (25 MP or higher) version of such a small sensor? Do people really think such a small 25 MP sensor will be competitive, for stills, with a 1DsIII sensor, with over 2X the surface area, or any of the current MFDB sensors, with roughly 4X the surface area? I'm not trying to diss RED ONE here. I'm just curious about the hubbub, and trying to understand what all the fuss is about.

By the way, if Phase or Sinar or Hassy or Leaf were to make such a forward-looking statement, they would likely be crucified on this forum for excessive pre-announcing.
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BJNY
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2008, 02:55:26 AM »
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No hubbub....just excited that such a game-changing company as RED
has intentions in the still image market, that's all.
Have already learned some info from just several posts here
I would not have known otherwise, so am thankful.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:41:19 AM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2008, 03:49:20 AM »
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////edited////

I have no say on RED in the new "Combo" section    
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michael
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2008, 06:54:37 AM »
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Amen. Exciting as it is, has little to do with the HQ MF industry.
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Patience grasshopper, patience.  

The semiconductor world is changing at a pace that will make the past 10 years look like a walk.

Michael
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Dustbak
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2008, 07:39:51 AM »
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I think I can already feel the pain in my wallet...
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Tim Lüdin
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2008, 10:47:27 AM »
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Thanks Michael for your patience regarding the RED in the MF forum.
I work as a Photographer, Director/DP who owns his own RED-One camera. I stated several times that I was shoked about the great still picture quality of the RED-One when I first did some print tests. Not that it will be usefull for bigtime ads but you get a good hint on what will be possible in the next future.
When Jim Jannard told us about his roadmap a few days ago on the redforum, it kinda gave me a flashback about our discussions here, when we talked about exactly that kinda stuff.
Still and moving picutres will merge faster than we think. Like Michael told us about the fast pace of new developments in sensor technology. RED is pushing it  hard. Jim Jannard is not only a filmcamera freak he also loves still photography. So the RED-Team will surprise us hard in the next 16 months or so. They got a lot of stuff coming...
So dont start arguing about the small stuff like it cant do that, or it wont be able to compete with real MF, the sensor is to small etc.. Our industry is changing very very fast right now.
It wont take another 10 years for an "all in one camera". It wont take 5 years..., its closer than you all would like it.

We all should start talking about the big picture and not about sensor sizes, dof, real MF or not etc. The big changes are coming right now and it will affect a whole industry. Very interesting times. Maybe bigger than the change from film to digital.
I love this forum but sometimes we all get to much caught up in tech details.
I think in the next 3 years there will be more dramatic changes in the photo and film industry than we saw in the last 10.
Lets talk business.

Tim
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