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Author Topic: File Delivery - 8bit or 16bit? Sharpened or not?  (Read 19830 times)
dkeyes
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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2008, 11:52:20 AM »
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Of course, I always ask for 16bit unsharpened RBG, because I assume most photographers don't know what they are doing
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Are you actually hiring these kinds of photographers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220931\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Poor wording on my part, I should have said I assume I know more about my file needs than they do. Of course they know what they are doing, I wouldn't have hired them in the first place. One thing I wanted to point out here is that, unless the client (designer, etc.) states otherwise, I would give them the file type with the most flexibility. The largest color gamut, bit and file size you have and let them and their prepress folks deal with what to do with it.
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TylerB
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2008, 12:10:50 PM »
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I don't think you can come up with a standard policy but have to feel out each situation. I've experienced "stay out of it sonny boy, you have no idea about our world" all the way to being at the printers with the client and the designer making ink choices and seeing proofs. Many photographers I know have disappointing and adversarial experiences with the reproduction of their work, probably more in publication editorial work than I have done. I have been very very fortunate in annual report work to see my efforts reproduced so far beyond my expectations, and getting occasional Black Book AR100 awards for the printing, that I happily step back and acknowledge the skill of these people, who have as much sweat and tears into their craft as I have mine, also the designers and clients who push for that level of craft.
It's not that hard with a little conversation to find the level required for each project. If it's clear that no one knows what they are talking about, and/or will not give you access to those that do, you have to take the safe routes discussed here and step out. There are many many issues at play beyond the reproduction quality of your work in the piece. It's important to let people do their jobs and give them their due.
When someone like Doug requests the files as he says he does, it's immediately apparent he knows what he's doing down the line with the work. But generally, if I am confident they will go to CMYK in a manner best suited to all of their concerns, I prefer to deliver in RGB, oversized as others have stated, marginally sharpened, 8 bit, and colors brought into reasonable conversion range.
Proofs also, if there's any budget room for them, "ideal" and press simulated. Interestingly they often don't know really what that means and don't "like" the press simulations...
I understand publication work often requires a different approach, more likely CMYK delivery than my world... my point is, feel it out, then apply your knowledge and diplomacy, it's not about rules.
Tyler
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2008, 03:38:15 PM »
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If I can get a good CMYK profile from the printer, then I do the conversions. Fortunately my two biggest magazine clients use the same large press in Denver. With that press and those two magazines, I essentially get 50 images a month of feedback on my conversions. For all others, I do as Tyler suggests, minimal sharpening, RGB, oversized and roughly soft proofed.
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Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk Gittings
Architecture and Landscape Photography
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andybuk99
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« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2008, 09:07:28 AM »
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No one complains when you give then gigs and gigs of data and they only need 12mb or less files?  Do you deliver via ftp? or 500gb hds via fedex?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What part do I need to explain?

The client says "I need a A4 image at 300dpi in jpg format" I give it to them, they want a 20"x16" 16bit tiff at 300dpi I supply them with it. If they don't express a preference I send them the best image I can be it 1 image on cd or many on dvd or hundreds on HDD? At least then I know when the image leaves me it has the maximum resolution and the most information contained in it, they can allways reduce the size.

I have no interest in providing images in CMYK as I dont have the time or inclination to make sure I have the correct profiles etc from each printer.
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Craig Lamson
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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2008, 11:21:01 AM »
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What part do I need to explain?

The client says "I need a A4 image at 300dpi in jpg format" I give it to them, they want a 20"x16" 16bit tiff at 300dpi I supply them with it. If they don't express a preference I send them the best image I can be it 1 image on cd or many on dvd or hundreds on HDD? At least then I know when the image leaves me it has the maximum resolution and the most information contained in it, they can allways reduce the size.

I have no interest in providing images in CMYK as I dont have the time or inclination to make sure I have the correct profiles etc from each printer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221215\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I guess I must communicate a bit better with my clients.
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teddillard
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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2008, 01:43:52 PM »
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So, I'm curious...  there's been a lot of good information here.  A lot of well informed, experienced pros with specific ideas about what they do and why.  

Do you think we can reach a consensus?  Dare we try to put together a "Luminous Landscape Forum Guidelines for Digital Photo Standards"?  

The LL community numbers around 30,000 members doesn't it? Just imagine...  

OK... coming in for a landing now...  
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 01:50:43 PM by teddillard » Logged

Ted Dillard
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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2008, 01:51:40 PM »
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I have found that UPDIG has been quite useful in the past for reference.

If there was ever a need for an industry standard for certain situations this is it.

On all my quotations I state that I deliver the file in 16bit tiff in adobeRGB unless otherwise advised, what the client/designer chooses to do after that is out of my control.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

fyi, UPDIG:
( [a href=\"http://www.updig.org/guidelines/index.php]The Universal Photographic Digital Imaging Guidelines[/url]  )
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Ted Dillard
TimothyHughes
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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2008, 02:34:05 PM »
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8bit, sharpened, jpgs at 11 or 12.
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2008, 09:27:37 PM »
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Do you think we can reach a consensus?
   
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~ CB
teddillard
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« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2008, 07:53:28 AM »
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Quote
   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221316\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh c'mon now!  So cynical for such a young man...

Let me start:

Luminous Landscape Guidelines for File Delivery

Step 1: Workstation setup and standards
Good color-accurate calibrated display
General purpose calibration settings: 6500K, 2.2 Gamma, Luminance ~140

Step 2: Communication with client
Determine client use and preferences for file delivery
Negotiate fees for preparation to those requests

Step 3: Determine processing "mode", ie, "Early Binding" or "Late Binding".

Early Binding- Files are processed for specific use as specified by client.
Examples: Offset printing, web/multimedia, fine reproduction
Late Binding- Files are processed to accommodate reasonable forseeable usage, allowing editing in post for specific applications.

Suggested procedures:  (all presuming "unless otherwise requested by client")

Early Binding: ...  (Jeff? Chris?)
Communication with Prepress is a prerequisite.
Obtain profile for proofing device
Adjust RGB to fit within proofing gamut and convert to CMYK under strict parameters of prepress requirements.
Include RGB files with CMYK as well as a "readme" explaining parameters of conversion.
(RGB should be "backwards converted", that is, converted to RGB from the CMYK to assure displayed colors can be printed.)
Files are delivered at final size with USM applied as per the prepress request.
SWOP certified proofs accompany image files, signed by client.
Inclusion of "Limits of Liability" in contract, or with "readme" on disk.

Late Binding:
Files are adjusted and "soft proofed" to keep within gamut for forseeable usage
Files are delivered in AdobeRGB in 8-bit
Files are delivered in native resolution.
(alt: Files are delivered sized to 120% of native resolution)
Files are "pre-sharpened", but not "final-sharpened".
Where applicable files are delivered with sample "Colorchecker target" image prepped to the same standards.
Guidelines and instructions are included with files in "readme" attachment.

Come on...  how 'm I doin?  If they can do it on Wikipedia we can do it here.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 06:59:20 AM by teddillard » Logged

Ted Dillard
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« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2008, 09:51:27 AM »
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Oh c'mon now!  So cynical for such a young man...

Let me start:

Luminous Landscape Guidelines for File Delivery

Step 1: Workstation setup and standards
Good color-accurate calibrated display
General purpose calibration settings: 6500K, 2.2 Gamma, Luminance ~180

Step 2: Communication with client
Determine client use and preferences for file delivery
Negotiate fees for preparation to those requests

Step 3: Determine processing "mode", ie, "Early Binding" or "Late Binding".

Early Binding- Files are processed for specific use as specified by client.
Examples: Offset printing, web/multimedia, fine reproduction
Late Binding- Files are processed to accommodate reasonable forseeable usage, allowing editing in post for specific applications.

Suggested procedures:  (all presuming "unless otherwise requested by client")

Early Binding: ...  (Jeff? Chris?)

Web/Multimedia: sRGB, 8-bit JPEG sized and sharpened
(how to check for "web safe" gamut?)

Late Binding:
Files are adjusted and "soft proofed" to keep within gamut for forseeable usage
Files are delivered in AdobeRGB in 8-bit TIFF
(alt: 16-bit?)
Files are delivered in native resolution.
(alt: Files are delivered sized to 120% of native resolution)
Files are "pre-sharpened", but not "final-sharpened".
Where applicable files are delivered with sample "Colorchecker target" image prepped to the same standards.
Guidelines and instructions are included with files in "readme" attachment.

Come on...  how 'm I doin?  If they can do it on Wikipedia we can do it here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221355\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ted Dillard
Dinarius
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« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2008, 01:35:31 AM »
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Luminous Landscape Guidelines for File Delivery

Step 1: Workstation setup and standards
Good color-accurate calibrated display
General purpose calibration settings: 6500K, 2.2 Gamma, Luminance ~180

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now those settings could start an entire debate of their own!  

[a href=\"http://www.updig.org/guidelines/calibration.php]http://www.updig.org/guidelines/calibration.php[/url]

Luminance ~180? Really?

D.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 02:34:41 AM by Dinarius » Logged
teddillard
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« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2008, 06:08:35 AM »
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Now those settings could start an entire debate of their own!   

http://www.updig.org/guidelines/calibration.php

Luminance ~180? Really?

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know, right?  (or as my 14 yr old says, IKR?)

Yes, I go with 180, but, for instance in i1, I'd settle for "default" luminance...
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Ted Dillard
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« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2008, 11:52:50 AM »
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I know, right?  (or as my 14 yr old says, IKR?)

Yes, I go with 180, but, for instance in i1, I'd settle for "default" luminance...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

crap i've lost my mind.  140.  luminance 140.  (assuming LCD display)
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Ted Dillard
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« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2008, 06:58:49 AM »
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nuthin'?  

OK I added this, see above:

Early Binding: ...  (Jeff? Chris?)
Communication with Prepress is a prerequisite.
Obtain profile for proofing device
Adjust RGB to fit within proofing gamut and convert to CMYK under strict parameters of prepress requirements.
Include RGB files with CMYK as well as a "readme" explaining parameters of conversion.
(RGB should be "backwards converted", that is, converted to RGB from the CMYK to assure displayed colors can be printed.)
Files are delivered at final size with USM applied as per the prepress request.
SWOP certified proofs accompany image files, signed by client.
Inclusion of "Limits of Liability" in contract, or with "readme" on disk.
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Ted Dillard
teddillard
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« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2008, 05:42:12 AM »
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well, you had your chance...  

Although I enjoy the discussion, I really feel the point is to hammer out some mutual understanding...  some common ground, in this case that being some guidelines.  To that end, I've read through most of what has been posted here and fleshed out a list.  

I ran those by some of the people I've worked with in photography, prepress, print and web production and design, and the consensus is that this seems to be a useful list.  It's specific enough to have meaning, and flexible enough to adapt to different philosophies.  

Above all, the key is to take responsibility for what you deliver, and communicate with your client, and their team.

For those interested, I've posted my final edits on my site, here:
http://www.teddillard.com/2008/09/file-del...s-proposal.html
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Ted Dillard
Dinarius
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« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2008, 07:14:37 AM »
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Ted,

Thanks for going to the trouble to put down your thoughts in writing.

On the subject of calibration..........

I calibrate using Color Solutions basICColor Display.

I use their "Photography" preset calibration.

This calibrates to the following parameters:

White Point: D50

Tonal response curve (gamma, if you like): L*

White max and black min: This usually gives me 250/0.20.

Contrast ratio comes out at about 1300:1 on my screen.

They also have a "Pre-press" preset which is D50, L* and Luminance of 130. I find this to dark for day to day work.

I am aware that if I want to match the "Photography" calibration in a proof print, I will have to brighten the image a bit more than what I see on the screen. But, usually, a levels adjustment layer with both the highlight and shadow sliders moved into the toe of the histogram gives me a near exact match on my Epson R2400.

Since, in the end, most of us need to output to print in some form, I feel that this is just as important an area of discussion.

For the record, I print proofs on Epson Lustre with the following settings in CS3:

Color Handling: Photoshop Manages Colors

Printer Profile: SPR2400 PremLuster BstPhoto.icc

Rendering Intent: Absolute Colorimetric

Printing Preferences:

Quality Option: Best Photo
Paper Options: Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster

Advanced Printing Preferences:

Color Management: ICM

Off (No Color Management): Box ticked.

This gives me a really close match to what I'm seeing on the screen, as long as I adjust for the greater brightness of the screen as stated above.

That said, if anyone can suggest improvements, I'm all ears!  

D.
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teddillard
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« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2008, 07:25:08 AM »
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Ted,

Thanks for going to the trouble to put down your thoughts in writing.

On the subject of calibration..........

I calibrate using Color Solutions basICColor Display.

I use their "Photography" preset calibration.

This calibrates to the following parameters:

White Point: D50

Tonal response curve (gamma, if you like): L*

White max and black min: This usually gives me 250/0.20.

Contrast ratio comes out at about 1300:1 on my screen.

They also have a "Pre-press" preset which is D50, L* and Luminance of 130. I find this to dark for day to day work.

I am aware that if I want to match the "Photography" calibration in a proof print, I will have to brighten the image a bit more than what I see on the screen. But, usually, a levels adjustment layer with both the highlight and shadow sliders moved into the toe of the histogram gives me a near exact match on my Epson R2400.

Since, in the end, most of us need to output to print in some form, I feel that this is just as important an area of discussion.

For the record, I print proofs on Epson Lustre with the following settings in CS3:

Color Handling: Photoshop Manages Colors

Printer Profile: SPR2400 PremLuster BstPhoto.icc

Rendering Intent: Absolute Colorimetric

Printing Preferences:

Quality Option: Best Photo
Paper Options: Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster

Advanced Printing Preferences:

Color Management: ICM

Off (No Color Management): Box ticked.

This gives me a really close match to what I'm seeing on the screen, as long as I adjust for the greater brightness of the screen as stated above.

That said, if anyone can suggest improvements, I'm all ears!   

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well...  I'm a little confused.  I thought we were talking about delivering files to clients, not prepping files for your printer.  It's a crucial difference...  you're working in a "closed loop", where you have control over every step, delivering files to clients is an "open loop", where the files leave your control.  The only photo applications for a closed-loop system are when you have a start-to-finish in-house production.  

That said, I have some issues with your "print-path"...  but that's another thread.  

Ted
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Ted Dillard
Dinarius
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« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2008, 11:05:05 AM »
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Ted,

You're right. I did stray off topic. Apologies.    

However, my points re calibration are relevant to the thread, I believe.

That said, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on my print path, as you put it. A PM would be appreciated.

D.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 11:06:05 AM by Dinarius » Logged
Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2009, 08:48:19 PM »
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That is why there are service beuro's....If you don't provide a CONTRACT certified SWOP PROOF in CMYK, then get a service beuro to do it.
Every magazine I know for advert work requires CMYK file along with a proof. They want a real proof, out of a real rip so they can loop it and see dots. Otherwise they will require it and make one for you and charge you.
That is most of the publishers. but I know Hearst pub recently has changing to RGB Adobe managed color. I still provide them a Contract CMYK file...If the client cant afford an extra ~$50/120 fullpage/spread, then they better sign off something.  8bit, CMYK, PDFx1a, no issues.  For those clicking to CMYK need to invest in a Pantone book, cus that violet richness you worked so hard to tweak...good bye...no matter what format you supplied the press.
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