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Author Topic: Sinar arTec Brochure  (Read 13715 times)
Jann Lipka
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2008, 12:07:47 AM »
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Any clues why Sinar would choose V mount before H ?
Is it easier to make  mechanically or is it a question of corporate politics ?
The number ratio  of H to V MFDB must be  like 10 :1 ??
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bcooter
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2008, 01:03:28 AM »
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Quote
Any clues why Sinar would choose V mount before H ?
Is it easier to make  mechanically or is it a question of corporate politics ?
The number ratio  of H to V MFDB must be  like 10 :1 ??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219772\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



i think you answered it.

medium format, including hasselblad makes this attempt to try to move everyone into their backs and their cameras but doesn't want to just close off the doorway to any possible back sales.

that is why no one says the words closed system but they wish in their hearts it was all a closed system.

this isn't as much of a real strategy as it is a reactive move when hasselblad closed the H camera.

this doesn't work well.  ask the people at f+h if the hybrid six is selling fast or ask hasselblad how camera and lens sales are doing.  it has been good for mamiya as they sell more camera and lens now than they have for many years before.

the reasons regardless it doesn't do the end user anything good and I know just confuses and makes the medium format camera much hard to understand and much more costs for the first time buyer.

other than briese umbrellas, medium format camera backs is  the most controlled equipment purchase in professional photography.  

some day some manufacturer is going to break past and go arond the dealer network and the dealer markup and sell direct.  If they were very smart they would make the backs go easy onto any camera with just a simple interface change and they would be like leaf and leaf of america and have repair and service places in the major countries.

if they don't do some big changes  then some japan company will make a way to make something close to medium format and then everything will change big.
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thsinar
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2008, 06:17:56 AM »
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Dear Jann,

Quote
Any clues why Sinar would choose V mount before H ?
Is it easier to make† mechanically or is it a question of corporate politics ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219772\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Simply because it is faster to do. We are a small company, have many other pending projects, so one after the other. I guess it's logical.

Quote
The number ratio† of H to V MFDB must be† like 10 :1 ??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219772\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would not be that sure about this ratio.

best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 06:20:32 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2008, 06:22:13 AM »
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Dear bcooter,

I think it is much more complicated than presented here, concerning the Sinar part. There are so many other factors in play as the ones you mention.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
i think you answered it.

medium format, including hasselblad makes this attempt to try to move everyone into their backs and their cameras but doesn't want to just close off the doorway to any possible back sales.

that is why no one says the words closed system but they wish in their hearts it was all a closed system.

this isn't as much of a real strategy as it is a reactive move when hasselblad closed the H camera.

this doesn't work well.  ask the people at f+h if the hybrid six is selling fast or ask hasselblad how camera and lens sales are doing.  it has been good for mamiya as they sell more camera and lens now than they have for many years before.

the reasons regardless it doesn't do the end user anything good and I know just confuses and makes the medium format camera much hard to understand and much more costs for the first time buyer.

other than briese umbrellas, medium format camera backs is  the most controlled equipment purchase in professional photography.   

some day some manufacturer is going to break past and go arond the dealer network and the dealer markup and sell direct.  If they were very smart they would make the backs go easy onto any camera with just a simple interface change and they would be like leaf and leaf of america and have repair and service places in the major countries.

if they don't do some big changes  then some japan company will make a way to make something close to medium format and then everything will change big.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219779\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2008, 06:30:27 AM »
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Dear Jann,
Simply because it is faster to do. We are a small company, have many other pending projects, so one after the other. I guess it's logical.
I would not be that sure about this ratio.

best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My guess might be the available number of backs in V mount is still larger than H mount, and the user base of H mount may be less focused on architecture work (who demand less for AF and other feature) so it is may be just a marketing approach. Pure guessing. And I could be wrong. I would also think many newer H mount back were sold by Hasselblad in ways of H3DXX, and those backs are not battery dependent so they are less convenient to use, although they can be powered by separate power source.  
On the positive side, it does show a good camera platform can be useful for many users. This is something to thank Sinar for their fair and wise approach.

Regards, K
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bcooter
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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2008, 10:01:21 AM »
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Dear bcooter,

I think it is much more complicated than presented here, concerning the Sinar part. There are so many other factors in play as the ones you mention.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i am sure it is much more complicated than what i wrote.   that is the big thing on medium format it is always very much more complicated.

since hasselblad closed the h camera for everyone the other companies are trying to find a way to sell their own camera systems and it has not been good for the user.  

except hasselblad has made the recent prices lowered and will probably even go more low to make up for the loss of camera and lens sales.

new cameras such as the hy6 are good for everyone but not if they make limitations about who can buy them and what back can go on them.

if sales are small then the camera and lens are always going to be more expensive.

no film company would have made new a film that would only work on a few cameras and to make the right profit charge three times the price of other films.

a japan camera company would not sell their digital camera and let the dealer markup be as high as it is in medium format cameras.  

no japan camera company would make a system to have all the used cameras go back to them to keep a control of the price.  they are too busy selling the new camera and lens to worry about the used.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2008, 10:22:29 AM »
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i discussed with sinar if the arctec will be a closed system or not, i voted for an open one but it was not clear which way sinar will go. i havent known their final decision, but i knew that their technic department wanted to check if its possible to make other adapters or if not, i knew too that they are very very busy with the scheduling of the artec and other things they had to finish till photokina so i did not expected any adapter at this moment.
i was very surprised to see now the new adapter in the brochure, i think it is clear sign that sinar wants this system to be an "open" one, therefor it would not surprise me if there will appear more adapters in the future cause the fundamental decision seem to be made.
i am happy about this, because i think the mf industry will only survive if they do not close their system each against each other. if they`d continue to lock out as much competitors as possible, some big fish will appear and eat them all sooner or later ( nikon? ).
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 10:22:46 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlbŲck
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munich / germany

www.tangential.de
samuel_js
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2008, 01:44:26 PM »
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Quote
i discussed with sinar if the arctec will be a closed system or not, i voted for an open one but it was not clear which way sinar will go. i havent known their final decision, but i knew that their technic department wanted to check if its possible to make other adapters or if not, i knew too that they are very very busy with the scheduling of the artec and other things they had to finish till photokina so i did not expected any adapter at this moment.
i was very surprised to see now the new adapter in the brochure, i think it is clear sign that sinar wants this system to be an "open" one, therefor it would not surprise me if there will appear more adapters in the future cause the fundamental decision seem to be made.
i am happy about this, because i think the mf industry will only survive if they do not close their system each against each other. if they`d continue to lock out as much competitors as possible, some big fish will appear and eat them all sooner or later ( nikon? ).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well it would be great if they changed their minds and made adapters for the Hy6 too. I'm sure I'd go for it if I could use it with my Phase back.

The problem with Hasselblad is that closing their system means a war not only against Canon and Nikon, but agaist the other MF manufacturers. My feeling is that MF manfacturers need to make force together agains Canon and Nikon because the day Canon or Nikon come with a Mf solution will be the end for many MF brands...
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:49:14 PM by samuel_js » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2008, 07:14:46 PM »
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i was very surprised to see now the new adapter in the brochure, i think it is clear sign that sinar wants this system to be an "open" one, therefor it would not surprise me if there will appear more adapters in the future cause the fundamental decision seem to be made.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do totally welcome this move as discussed elsewhere, but if they have decided to offer other adapters in the future also, the smart thing would be to announce it as soon as the technical feasibility is confirmed.

Until then, a public announcement that they will support all the back mounts that can from a technical stanpoint would also help IMHO.

I don't think that a possbile next gen Sinar back announcement would make a big difference frankly speaking.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
thsinar
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2008, 07:25:47 PM »
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Dear Bernard and others,

If my voice has some kind of value, I can say that announcing a Hasselblad V interface for the arTec is already a prove that Sinar has no intention to limit this camera to Sinarbacks (and Leaf AFi backs, since it uses the same Hy6 mount).

And obviously, like we do it usually, announcements of other interface plates will be made as soon as it becomes clear that it is feasible.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I do totally welcome this move as discussed elsewhere, but if they have decided to offer other adapters in the future also, the smart thing would be to announce it as soon as the technical feasibility is confirmed.

Until then, a public announcement that they will support all the back mounts that can from a technical stanpoint would also help IMHO.

I don't think that a possbile next gen Sinar back announcement would make a big difference frankly speaking.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219892\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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samuel_js
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« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2008, 05:38:41 AM »
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Dear Bernard and others,
Sinar has no intention to limit this camera to Sinarbacks (and Leaf AFi backs, since it uses the same Hy6 mount).

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219895\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,
Why opening the SinarTach but not the Hy6?
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thsinar
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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2008, 07:08:10 AM »
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Samuel,

May I answer by "good question"?

 

There are many reasons, as you may suspect, one of them being a contractual one.

Best regards,
Thierry


Quote
Thierry,
Why opening the SinarTach but not the Hy6?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 07:08:22 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2008, 02:52:23 PM »
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Hello,

I have not posted here for a while and I hope this will not be taken the wrong way. First of all, I would like to congratulate Sinar and Rainer on this camera. It is certainly a camera that deserves attention as it provides something that no other camera of this type has; Iím obviously taking about the sliding back. It is definitely a feature Iím interested in.

Rainer, nice shot on the cover Ė however, I have a question regarding this particular photo and frankly, Iím surprised that nobody has mentioned anything. Iím assuming that the photo was taken with this camera.  

One thing that I was concerned about when I first saw the specs for this camera was its ability to tilt and its tolerances when it comes to the sliding back. From my experience, Sinar is at the top when it comes to quality and Iím certain there is a way to make sure that when tilt is at 0, it is zeroed out and there is no tilt applied, nor is there any play in the sliding back, but this brings me to the question regarding the photo. What is causing the building to be straight on the left and converge quite a bit at the top, on the right? Is it some sort of internal camera misalignment or is it the 28HR strange distortion? I have not seen anything like that before and Iím simply curious what could be causing it. Since the tilting mechanism rotates 360ļ it is remotely possible that it is responsible for that, but if not, what else?

Thanks.
Mariusz
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bavanor
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« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2008, 03:08:26 PM »
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Mariusz,

I believe that the building is actually designed/constructed that way.  So nothing wrong with the camera just an architect and their wacky designs

Aaron
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« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2008, 03:20:22 PM »
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Aaron,

Thanks for your response, but Iíve driven by that building many times and I do not believe it is the case. I could have missed that, but I doubt it.



Quote
Mariusz,

I believe that the building is actually designed/constructed that way.  So nothing wrong with the camera just an architect and their wacky designs

Aaron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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rainer_v
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« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2008, 04:24:48 PM »
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Aaron,

Thanks for your response, but Iíve driven by that building many times and I do not believe it is the case. I could have missed that, but I doubt it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220885\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it has to do with the way i felt that the photo looks fine.
high-raises like this normally arent 100% parallel "shiftet up", to give a more perspectivic look, as one would do this with lower buildings.  
you can discuss now if i did it right or wrong, for me its just the way as i felt the image is looking good. you may see it in the shot from sidewards that at the right side of the bottom there is also an angular construction of the building.
in shot3 ( from backwards )  i made this kind of perspectivic view from img1 even stronger.
you may like it or not, its the way how i liked to make it.
in the last shot you see the building 100% straight, cause here it was not important that the building raises "up"..
to complete the little image excourse i added one interior shot of the building too.

[attachment=8315:attachment]


[attachment=8316:attachment]


[attachment=8317:attachment]


[attachment=8318:attachment]



[attachment=8319:attachment]
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 05:08:16 PM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlbŲck
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« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2008, 05:11:21 PM »
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Rainer,

Thanks for your explanation and I hope you did not think I was criticizing your photo. I was simply curious what could have caused this effect. I did not think about the obvious, that the image was altered / corrected in PS. We all see things differently, that is what makes things interesting.

Thanks again,
Mariusz  



Quote
it has to do with the way i felt that the photo looks fine.
high-raises like this normally arent 100% parallel "shiftet up", to give a more perspectivic look, as one would do this with lower buildings. 
you can discuss now if i did it right or wrong, for me its just the way as i felt the image is looking good. you may see it in the shot from sidewards that at the right side of the bottom there is also an angular construction of the building.
in shot3 ( from backwards )  i made this kind of perspectivic view from img1 even stronger.
you may like it or not, its the way how i liked to make it.
in the last shot you see the building 100% straight, cause here it was not important that the building raises "up"..
to complete the little image excourse i added one interior shot of the building too.

[attachment=8315:attachment]
[attachment=8316:attachment]
[attachment=8317:attachment]
[attachment=8318:attachment]
[attachment=8319:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=220895\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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